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Did the pre-WW II conduct of Jews in Poland instigate antisemitism towards them?

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vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Feb 12, 10, 10:08 #31
z_darius ...And Steve Wozniak was an American, yes.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Feb 12, 10, 10:22 #32

yehudi:

Google was started by two Jewish teenagers

Do we want to compare the numbers of inventions between Jews, Catholics and Protestants, Yehudi?
Or do we want to compare inventions made my Israelis, Americans, English, Poles, Germans or whatever?
You can't have it both ways! ;)

yehudi:

Mark Zuckerberg - one of us

Meaning what? Is he a Jew? Or is he American???

Born in the US, going to school there, teached by Americans, studied there, teached by Americans...Zuckerberg is an Ashkenazi name, isn't it? Maybe Germany has more rights to him if we play this game even further!

Do we want to compare jewish-american inventions with...say....german-american inventions???

Better stay with what comes out of Israel...that you can compare seriously with any other nation on the planet.
Everything else looks ridiculous and even re-inforces prejudices !

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Feb 12, 10, 13:13 #33

Anyone who knows about inventions and patents knows that the criteria is sometimes different from the truth. There should be 'sufficient originality' but those who are given the credit are often ably assisted by creative minds around them. Another factor is resources.

There is no question that some Jews are very smart cookies indeed but America plies them with resources and conditions in which they can flourish. Would they fare so well in Ethiopia?

Just look at the 2 Englishmen who cloned Dolly the Sheep. They used Scottish facilities to do so.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Feb 12, 10, 13:18 #34
vetala: .And Steve Wozniak was an American, yes. First, he IS still alive. Second, when a person is born in the US of Polish parents then he is American, but when a person is born in Russia/US/Germany he is Jewish. How come?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 12, 10, 13:24 #35
Because America places more importance on birthplace than most other countries. If you were born in China to 2 Polish parents but moved back to Poland shortly after the birth, you could hardly be considered to be Chinese.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Feb 12, 10, 13:27 #36
Seanus: Because America places more importance on birthplace than most other countries. Most other countries would include Israel, no?

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Edited by: SeanBM Feb 12, 10, 13:39 #37

yehudi:

I guess now you can resent us for the internet. Google was started by two Jewish teenagers (one russian, one american). Facebook was started by Mark Zuckerberg - one of us.

I think since Jesus was a Jew you can claim all the Christians too, well their great achievements anyway. And as Jesus appears in the Koran... :)

As usual the borders between Israeli and Jewish people are unclear.

It always reminds me of the other side of this view:

Einstein once remarked that 'if relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German, and the Germans will call me a Jew.'

yehudi:

But hats off to Poland for Steve Wozniak of Apple.

One apple? I know Irish people with whole orchards.

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Did the pre-WW II conduct of Jews in Poland instigate antisemitism towards them?

Not even slightly close to enough to warrant the holocaust.

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Feb 12, 10, 13:48 #38

Yey, another anti-semitism thread! Like we haven't one before.

jwojcie

I side with yehudi in my comment. This is one of the rare postings that I've seen in all those Jewish and anti-semitic threads that truly has an air of science over it. Good Man!

yehudi:

Steve Wozniak of Apple

F*ck Apple :)

joepilsudski:

Exactly the situation in the USA today...This is not an accident.

I see that Joe is still in dire need of some professional help? Some things never change. Those Americans who think they are Polish or Russian are severe nutcases at given times.

And Chip, as TS, I would like to ask you a question: if this is such a one-sided deal, how come that Jews nearly everywhere in Western Europe assimilated fully and completely, only in the East they didn't? Could this be the fault of the Jews not wanting to assimilate? Why no, they could assimilate in the West...Maybe the locals didn't let them assimilate? Remarkably, the anti-semite problem mainly seems to occur in Eastern Europe. Some depraved souls blame this on the Soviet times, but the issue was current long before that. So what would the problem be?

yehudi:

Mark Zuckerberg

One of us :) Just like Oppenheimer et al:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_inventors

>^..^<

M-G (no more Jewish threads pls, there are too many other nice or not so nice subjects to talk about than to keep going on about it)

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Feb 12, 10, 13:56 #39
MareGaea: Yey, another anti-semitism thread! :) Ah doesn't it warm your heart to know that everything may change in life but PF will always be talking about the same thing over and over? :)

King SobieskiThreads: 7 Posts: 1,103 Joined: Jan 22, 07 ♂	Feb 12, 10, 14:00 #40
MareGaea: Yey, another anti-semitism thread! where both sides act like bigots?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 12, 10, 23:06 #41
It's amazing to see so many views of people who weren't there and likely read flawed and biased articles. Incredible how such firmly held convictions are created based on nonsense.

hague1cameronThreads: - Posts: 98 Joined: Feb 8, 10 ♂	Feb 13, 10, 00:55 #42
MareGaea MareGaea: Jews nearly everywhere in Western Europe assimilated fully No not really, they were persecuted more in the west initially, do you remember the English edict of Expulsion in 1290. some of those Jews emigrated to the more tolerant Polish nation to find a new home.

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Feb 14, 10, 10:56 #43

Bratwurst Boy:

My point was that if someone says "the Jews take over banking, etc" then I can generalize just as easily and say, "well, we brought you google, facebook, the cure to polio and Jesus." These are all generalizations and don't get into whether a Jew is israeli or American or Polish. But you can't have it both ways either. If I can't take credit for what any Jew did anywhere then you can't criticize "The Jews" for anything any jew ever did anywhere.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Feb 14, 10, 11:05 #44
yehudi: If I can't take credit for what any Jew did anywhere then you can't criticize "The Jews" for anything any jew ever did anywhere. I know...that is stupid! :)

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,521 Joined: Apr 27, 07 ♂	Feb 15, 10, 21:40 #45
yehudi: and Jesus." And you would be a liar.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 15, 10, 21:50 #46
Well, an Englishman brought us the www so where would Google be without that? ;) ;) You wanna compare Scottish and Jewish inventions? It'd be interesting! Brought Jesus? Yeah, and killed him too :( It's just as well that he performed his resurrection trick ;)

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Feb 15, 10, 21:53 #47
Seanus: Brought Jesus? Yeah, and killed him too :( Seanus, without having been killed Jesus would be a nobody. The whole Jesus trick is in him having been crucified. God's grand plan, remember? Jews only followed God's plan.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 15, 10, 21:57 #48
Go on, Dariusz. Why wasn't JPII killed then? He was sth of an Apostle in some people's eyes. So why do we now criticise Islamic martyrdom? If Muslims are the embodiment of the will of Allah, like priests are symbols and intermediaries of God's word, why doesn't the same logic apply?

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Feb 16, 10, 02:53 #49

z_darius:

Seanus, without having been killed Jesus would be a nobody. The whole Jesus trick is in him having been crucified. God's grand plan, remember? Jews only followed God's plan

Holy crap! Somebody who actually understands Christianity. The Pharisees were corrupted by satan + there own human nature. The notion that the Jews killed Christ is pure political influence on faith. Only a simpleton in faith would fall for this.

I find this thread to be intriguing. I have always wondered the dynamic that brought about the almost universal hatred of them in Europe. The best I have ever been able to figure is that they were a sucessful closed community within an open society. The media here is very one sided and you never hear a reasonable discussion of the history that led to the events of WWII.

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Feb 16, 10, 04:22 #50

Seanus:

Go on, Dariusz. Why wasn't JPII killed then?

Also God's plan.

Seanus:

He was sth of an Apostle in some people's eyes.

But, unlike Jesus, he was neither God's son, nor was he a savior.
Again, God's plan.

Blaming Jews for killing Jesus is pointless.

Seanus:

So why do we now criticise Islamic martyrdom? If Muslims are the embodiment of the will of Allah, like priests are symbols and intermediaries of God's word, why doesn't the same logic apply?

Two things:
1. Islam is not Christianity and they do not see Jesus as God, or a son thereof.
2. Religion and logic? :-)

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Feb 16, 10, 09:29 #51

Where can I get a copy of the script? ;) ;) It seems to be for your eyes only ;)

I don't blame Jews for that and credible authority has argued that Jews had only a limited hand in it anyway. It's the two that always hammer it out, Rabbi sth or other and Michael sth or other.

He was a saviour of sorts, a healer in some sense. Do you have the birth certificate of Jesus as I'd like to see it? ;) ;) ;)

That's not answering my question at all, Dariusz. I'm specifically addressing the concept of martyrdom. Jesus was a martyr, true or false? (in that he sacrificed himself for the greater good). Christians are eternally grateful for that martyrdom, true or false? It's principle and logic with religion just creeping in ;)

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Feb 16, 10, 10:24 #52

Seanus:

So why do we now criticise Islamic martyrdom?

While it's not my job to defend christianity, I want to point out that Jesus didn't blow himself up in a crowded market killing as many civilians around him as possible. According to your religion he was martyred to save you, not to kill you. Can you imagine Jesus barging into a passover meal in a hotel dining room and blowing himself up in order to kill 30 Jews and injure 140 people? (Park Hotel, Netanya, 2002). What kind of a christian are you?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 16, 10, 12:10 #53
The praying kind :) Of course I deplore the methods they use, yehudi, but I was discussing the principle of martyrdom, dying for a cause, however noble some deem that cause to be. They die for Allah and Jesus died for us.

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	Feb 16, 10, 12:15 #54
I have no problem with anyone who decides to die for Allah as long as he does it far away from innocent people and arranges to clean the mess. As far as the comparison with Jesus, I'll leave it to the christians on this thread to give you their opinion.

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Feb 16, 10, 12:19 #55

Oh, I agree. The methods are not in question for me. They are wrong and taking innocent life is wrong. Let's see how Catholic the forum is. Jesus was a martyr, so are jihadists. They both sacrificed themselves for what they see as noble and just. So, is martyrdom so desirable? Who understands penance/repentance and justification? Who understands the theological significance of the debates between Pacqwi and Walter Martin on the Ankerberg show?

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Feb 16, 10, 14:21 #56

Seanus:

Let's see how Catholic the forum is. Jesus was a martyr, so are jihadists. They both sacrificed themselves for what they see as noble and just. So, is martyrdom so desirable? Who understands penance/repentance and justification? Who understands the theological significance of the debates between Pacqwi and Walter Martin on the Ankerberg show?

Seanus, no theological debate can start with asking about basics, and the basic question is: what is Christianity?

The answer is simple. Christianity is an offshoot (not a continuation) of Judaism, which is an offshoot of religions that predate it (Egypt, Persia etc). There is no Jahve, there is no Heaven and there is no Hell. The concepts are identical to that of the carrot and the stick. As someone said (paraphrasing) without religion poor people would have killed rich people a very long time ago. So they promise you a carrot (or 72 virgins) when you die, or a stick (eternal fire). Incidentally, the stick can hurt you before you die too.

The rest of the debate is something that has been going on for millenia and the result is that nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Religion is simply the longest running soap opera.

Blaming Jews for anything to do with Jesus is ridiculous. They killed one of their own for what they decided was blasphemy. Much like Christians also killed people for what Christians considered blasphemy. Jews and Christians grew out of that (somewhat). Muslims still live the fable.

Even though I am no big fan of Zionism, in all honesty, I would be more worried about Islam now.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Feb 16, 10, 14:26 #57
Seanus: Jesus was a martyr, so are jihadists. They both sacrificed themselves for what they see as noble and just. All those native Europeans burned on stakes/beheaded in the name of some imported, middle eastern cults are the real, true martyrs! So! (For us the situation did not change much...figuratively spoken...)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 16, 10, 14:29 #58
That's what I wanted and I go along with it. Playing on peoples' sensibilities and vulnerabilities is from time immemorial. Plenty Muslims drink beer, they did so in Bosnia. As for Jews in Poland, I can imagine the tension. Both wanting their own way to the max.

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Feb 16, 10, 14:47 #59

z_darius:

Blaming Jews for anything to do with Jesus is ridiculous. They killed one of their own for what they decided was blasphemy.

It was the Roman administration in Palestine in the 1st century CE which killed Yeshua ben Yusef. Some of the local populace probably supported the execution, some may not have. We do not have any historically accurate primary sources to verify this (The New Testament is more a piece of early Christian propaganda than a historical document). To blame the local populace for the death of this individual would be as unfair as, oh say, blaming the local populace in Poland for the death camps set up by the occupying Nazi forces. Blaming either group's descendents is just plain meshugenes.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Feb 16, 10, 14:51 #60
Rogalski: To blame the local populace for the death of this individual would be as unfair as, oh say, blaming the local populace in Poland for the death camps set up by the occupying Nazi forces. Cracking parallel!