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Did the pre-WW II conduct of Jews in Poland instigate antisemitism towards them?

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yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	Feb 16, 10, 16:13 #61
Rogalski: . To blame the local populace for the death of this individual would be as unfair as I would say it's more like blaming "The Indians" for killing Gandhi.

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Feb 17, 10, 18:51 #62
yehudi: it's more like blaming "The Indians" for killing Gandhi. So, it was all an Indian conspiracy, was it?

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Feb 18, 10, 11:34 #63

Rogalski:

So, it was all an Indian conspiracy, was it?

It actually was. A group of Hindu nationalists did not like his "turn the other cheek" attitude and thought he was helping the Muslim enemy. So they conspired to kill him. The rest of the world still looked at Gandhi as a demi-god. So imagine if in a hundred years there starts to develop a religion around the persona of Gandhi (somewhere in the west). His followers start to believe that he was the son of god and then develop a cult around his assassination. Before you know it, there will be mobs of Europeans attacking the indians in their midst for "killing our lord".

It's happened before.

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Feb 18, 10, 20:30 #64

Rogalski:

It was the Roman administration in Palestine in the 1st century CE which killed Yeshua ben Yusef.

It's like saying that Hitler was a cool fella because he personally didn't kill a single person during WW2.

The gist of the matter in regards to the crucifixion of Jesus is that Jews did not kill a Christian son of God but a Jewish rebel who threatened status quo and the Jewish establishment. In other words, fair or not, it was a Jewish internal matter.

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Feb 18, 10, 21:39 #65

z_darius:

The gist of the matter in regards to the crucifixion of Jesus is that Jews did not kill a Christian son of God but a Jewish rebel who threatened status quo and the Jewish establishment. In other words, fair or not, it was a Jewish internal matter.

Yeshua ben Yusef was executed under Roman law, which prescribed crucifixion for rebels. If he had been executed under Jewish law, he would have been stoned to death.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 18, 10, 21:41 #66
I understand there's even a Roman form of a 'Wanted Poster' giving a detailed physical description (which, by the way, is not flattering). I'll try and find a link.

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Feb 18, 10, 21:51 #67

z_darius:

Rogalski:
It was the Roman administration in Palestine in the 1st century CE which killed Yeshua ben Yusef.
It's like saying that Hitler was a cool fella because he personally didn't kill a single person during WW2.

No, it's not. The armed wing of the German Nationalist Socialist Party (of which Hitler was the head honcho) killed millions upon millions of people during WWII. He most certainly has blood on his hands. The analogy is therefore flawed.

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Edited by: joepilsudski Feb 19, 10, 21:38 #68

Rogalski:

The armed wing of the German Nationalist Socialist Party (of which Hitler was the head honcho) killed millions upon millions of people during WWII. He most certainly has blood on his hands. The analogy is therefore flawed.

Certainly...There were various Germans who believed in a type of 'National Socialism'
quite at odds with the Hitler variety...Best example is he 'Black Front' under Otto Strasser who opposed Hitler from the start...Strasser was opposed to the racialism, militarism, and compromise with the 'money powers' that Hitler promoted...Otto Strasser was persued by the Hitler faction throughout WWII, but survived...His brother Gregor, who was loyal to Hitler was not so lucky...Hitler had him shot in the head.

Hitler, 'man of destiny' led Germany to ruin...But, rosumieć, Hitler was a puppet of other forces.

Rogalski:

Yeshua ben Yusef was executed under Roman law, which prescribed crucifixion for rebels. If he had been executed under Jewish law, he would have been stoned to death.

Jesus was sent to His death by Pilate, correct, but only because Pilate caved into to the 'neocon' Sanhedrin, much like the US government has allowed the 'neocon' element in the US to lead it into perdition via the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In a nutshell, Pilate caved in to 'Jewish' pressure.

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Feb 20, 10, 13:49 #69
joepilsudski: Hitler, 'man of destiny' led Germany to ruin...But, rosumieć, Hitler was a puppet of other forces. In a nutshell, Pilate caved in to 'Jewish' pressure. What were these other forces you talk about? And it seems to me that both of these men were pretty ******** leaders if they caved in so easily to 'pressure'.

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Edited by: joepilsudski Feb 20, 10, 19:50 #70

Rogalski:

What were these other forces you talk about?

And it seems to me that both of these men were pretty ******** leaders if they caved in so easily to 'pressure'.

What forces?...For Hitler, banking forces (City of London, Wall Street, Jewish Banking Cartel), plus corporate militarist forces (Prussian Junkers, Farben, Krupp)...No leader comes to and retains power without 'money men' behind him...Also, factions of National Socialist party...Plus his own doctor, Morrel, who apparently was slowly poisoning Hitler, and making him a drug addict, thus rendering him emotionally and psychologically unstable as far as decision making goes...Certainly his own generals opposed many of his decisions, but only in extremely rare cases will a soldier dare to confront his 'commander' especially in war time.

As far as Pilate, he was simply a Roman governor of Iudea (Judea), a pragmatist who had no particular religious or spiritual views.

The 'proto-Jews' of the time (Pharisees, Saducees, Zealots) who were causing turmoil in Iudea were a thorn in his side...Pilate merely wanted to maintain stability, and was not about to get involved in religious issues of the Iudeans/Idumeans...If you read the Bible it is clear that Pilate himself would have released Jesus...Even his wife warned him...However,
pressure by 'certain elements' caused turmoil on his watch, so Pilate made the 'pragmatic' move, and handed Christ over to be crucified, then washed his hands. In his pragmatic/worldly view, this Jesus of Nazareth was not worth the trouble, although it is apparent that Pilate was fascinated by the man.

Also please note: the sign that Pilate tacked onto the cross, INRI, does not mean '"Jesus, King of the Jews'...The translation is 'Iesus, Nazarene Ruler of Iudea'...Most read this as a mocking gesture: However, I believe that Pilate actually thought that Jesus WAS the real ruler of Iudea, because even he, Pilate, felt the force of His power...He, in some sense, couldn't understand why the Sanhedrin would want to kill such a wise man, but he was aware of their treachery and jealousies...In fact, the Iudean mob, prompted by agents of the Sanhedrin, were convinced to ask for the release of Barabbas...I believe the proper translation of Bar-Abbas is 'son of the father'...Note here:

John 8:44

Words of Jesus Christ to the Pharisees

'Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.'

So, in fact, the Iudean mob demanded that Barabbas, Zealot, and 'son of his father, the devil', was freed instead of the Son of the Father in heaven, Jesus Christ...But, this was what the mob demanded, and Pilate, who wished not be bothered, gave in.

Matthew 27: 20-25

'But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.

Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.'

So, the choice was made by the Iudeans: 'We choose the son of the devil, over the Son of God/Son of Man.'

'Give Us Barabbas'

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Feb 22, 10, 21:48 #71
But, as has been established, the New Testament does not purport to be a historically accurate record, but scripture. We cannot be sure that this is actually what happened. Only a person's faith can lead him/her to accept it as the 'truth' - but of course, that is not the focus of the present thread.

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Edited by: guzzler May 16, 10, 02:18 #72

joepilsudski:

The only thing that makes sense to me in the above is that Hitler was psychologically unstable and it seems his father was a basket case. Both with a taste for incest put that together with fours years at the front in World War Two not a good recipe for a stable mind. And I think you are muddying the water by just pointing at the Jews as the money men what about the none Jews like the Rockefellers. Who it is said was supplying the Nazi's with oil right up to 1944 its all about money that's what the power is nothing to do with race or religion all about power and greed and control.

joepilsudski:

Sanhedrin would want to kill such a wise man, but he was aware of their treachery and jealousies...In fact, the Iudean mob, prompted by agents of the Sanhedrin, were convinced to ask for the release of Barabbas...I believe the proper translation of Bar-Abbas is 'son of the father'...Note here:

If the the Sanhedrin wanted to execute anyone for heresy they had the legal right and power to do so. Jesus according to the New Testament started a riot in the temple the Jewish holy of Hollie's this was heresy he also called the Temple his fathers house It would not have interested the Romans it was a Jewish affair. The Romans used scourging and crucifixion for sedition any other serious crimes the method was decapitation. The Jewish capital punishment for heresy was stoning to death so Jesus was crucified as hundreds were at that time for revolting against Rome. All the rest was just spin to make the religion more acceptable to the Romans three hundred years after Jesus death.

What did pre-WW11 conduct of the Jews in Poland do to instigate antisemitism towards them. Nothing what could justify exterminating children woman and men Polish people apart from the countless thousands saved by selfless wonderful brave Poles at the risk to their own lives.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	May 16, 10, 03:31 #73
I wonder why the Jews were hunted and killed for 2 millennia if they are soooo powerful and influential....hmmmm.....

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	May 16, 10, 15:07 #74
Bratwurst Boy: I wonder why the Jews were hunted and killed for 2 millennia if they are soooo powerful and influential....hmmmm..... Because they have A LOT of fractions, just look up the different rebel groups in times of Jesus and the different parties today in Israel

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Edited by: MareGaea May 16, 10, 15:17 #75

Bratwurst Boy:

why the Jews were hunted

I have posted a longer version in some other thread, but I will give you the short version of why:

Romans: they refused to give up their faith; Christians: Christkillers/not willing to convert; Rich/Noblesse: they were smart; Poor ppl: jealousy/competitors/some of them were rich; General reasons: outsiders, not willing to pay back money loaned from Jews, false rumours about questionable religious practices; in need of scapegoats and, just to keep the "good" millenia old tradition in shape: Israël and Israeli politics.

This is what anti semitism basically comes down to. All other explanations are variations of these.

It's actually remarkable that a ppl like the Arabs, who don't have a millennia old tradition of anti semitism or intolerance, have now turned into one of the most anti semitic groups due to an error in the conception that Israël was Arab land, which it was not.

Another thing: I've seen the Bible being used as explanation. One must never forget that the Bible as such was written 3 to 400 years after the actual events by ppl who were already converted to Christianity. This leads to bias and manipulation. We don't know if Barrabas was actually a thief as it says. All we know is that contemporaries didn't see Jesus as "the son of God", but just as another village idiot-like individual who claimed weird things, as many of them did. Plus we don't know for sure if the spectators made the decision. But if they did, it might as well be that Barrabas was a wealthy influential figure and Jesus just some other freak, in which case the choice for Barrabas would be understandable. But we don't know, so we cannot base anything on this source, which renders Chrisitan anti semitism virtually useless.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	May 16, 10, 16:09 #76
MareGaea: Chrisitan anti semitism virtually useless John Paul II defined antisemitism as a sin and termed “various forms of antisemitism and discrimination against Jews contrary to the spirit of Christianity.” http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/about/events/pope/john_paul/portrait.a sp

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	May 16, 10, 17:03 #77
Did the pre-WW II conduct of Jews in Poland instigate antisemitism towards them? Did pre-WWIII conduct of Jews in Palestine instigate antisemitism towards them? :)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	May 16, 10, 17:13 #78
Bratwurst Boy: I wonder why the Jews were hunted and killed for 2 millennia if they are soooo powerful and influential....hmmmm..... Various reasons, in France for money, in Spain for attempting to influence politics, sometimes it was just prejudice but quite often there were solid reasons too.

♀

May 16, 10, 20:27 #79

Bratwurst Boy:

I wonder why the Jews were hunted and killed for 2 millennia if they are soooo powerful and influential....hmmmm.....

It's because they are not so tough. If it weren't for USA, Israel would be long gone by now and they still turn to us whenever they need something (like a defense system) instead of paying for it themselves. I wonder if the Russians are going to pitch in since so many Jews lived in Russia? Why is it always USA that pays for everything. The EU might be shouldering some of the cost. Let's hope so.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 16, 10, 20:33 #80
Well, Russia perhaps, yes. Having said that, I think Britain and France owe Israel much for their selfish intervention over the years. Britain has many Arab supporters and that's why they are cooler than America on the Israel question. Britain made one helluva mess in the ME and blew with the wind. PP, the US chooses to pay, right? Who's pointing a gun at them?

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Edited by: richasis May 16, 10, 20:35 #81

Bratwurst Boy:

I wonder why the Jews were hunted and killed for 2 millennia if they are soooo powerful and influential....hmmmm.....

Hunted and Killed? The Khazar/Ashkenazim Crypto-Jew is more exploitive than exploited.

Seanus:

PP, the US chooses to pay, right? Who's pointing a gun at them?

The average American is about as represented as the average European - less so, even.

Seanus, I'm quite surprised that of all people you would subscribe to this line of thought.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	May 16, 10, 20:37 #82
If our economy were in great shape, it wouldn't be as big a deal. We are spending too much on defense and not enough on domestic issues, like job growth and health care. We have so many domestic problems, it's a bit of a joke to be paying for someone else's systems. Same goes for NASA, another fiscal black hole.

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Edited by: Seanus May 16, 10, 20:40 #83

The Israelites were known to be rebellious from Biblical days. They went against what Divine Law stated and were warned numerous times. Look at Moses, he is the prime example.

As for the conduct of Jews, I can only imagine that many insisted on Poles giving them shelter. They were poor people determined to trade. My wife's family have quite a few stories of their cheating. Articles have also been written about them where they insisted that Poles adapt to their ways.

PP, you are joking, right? Obama is placing maximum priority on the 2 issues you mentioned. Didn't you watch his speech of Jan 2010?

America is investing in a concept, namely a satellite. Life without Israel there would be unimaginable for many.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	May 16, 10, 20:47 #84
Seanus, Israel has the right to pay for it's own Satellite in a time we are in deep crises. People are on the streets, thousands are homeless. Even more are uninsured with limited access to doctors and hospitals and even more hospitals go bankrupt due to the uninsured flooding their ERs out of desperations. This is first priority. All defense systems should come after.

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Edited by: richasis May 16, 10, 20:53 #85

Seanus:

As for the conduct of Jews, I can only imagine that many insisted on Poles giving them shelter. They were poor people determined to trade. My wife's family have quite a few stories of their cheating. Articles have also been written about them where they insisted that Poles adapt to their ways.

Agreed, Seanus. I know for a fact that is true - this, based upon my own Jewish ancestors' (most-telling) accounts of 'their' pre-WWII Poland.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 16, 10, 20:54 #86
Oh, I wasn't disputing that at all. I mentioned why earlier in this thread. Back to the thread, allegations of cheating were rife. My wife's grandma, a German, was cheated. She bought what she thought to be a pair of shoes but the Jewish owner gave her only one and made her haggle for the second one. What a farce if true!

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	May 17, 10, 09:30 #87
Seanus: My wife's grandma, a German, was cheated. She bought what she thought to be a pair of shoes but the Jewish owner gave her only one and made her haggle for the second one. Well I guess that explains everything. Who wouldn't want to exterminate Jewish babies after a trauma like that.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 17, 10, 09:35 #88
As I said, it is only a story, yehudi. She wasn't the biggest fans of Russians or Jews so I take whatever she says with a pinch of salt. They had a reputation for being sharks in business but I guess they had to be in order to survive, never mind prosper.

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	May 17, 10, 09:53 #89
Seanus: They had a reputation for being sharks in business So you should support zionism which says that jews should live together in israel where we can cheat each other and leave the goyim alone. (I bought a pair of shoes the other day and there were two shoes in the box! See, we can learn to be decent if given the chance).

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 17, 10, 09:58 #90
Zionism is focussed in on Jerusalem largely, yehudi, you should know that. Besides, the shark ethic is pervasive in business. A reputation is only that! Well, 2 shoes is a definite step ahead :) I don't think Nathan Birnbaum or Herzl envisaged shoes entering the Zionist equation ;) ;)