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Did the pre-WW II conduct of Jews in Poland instigate antisemitism towards them?


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1jolaThreads: 33
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 May 17, 10, 09:58    #91
Wise choice buying shoes from an Arab.

SeanusThreads: 22
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 May 17, 10, 10:09    #92
Why would that be a wise choice, 1Jola? ;) A free shoe bomb?

Anyway, I don't think there are Poles old enough here to answer the thread question with first-hand experience and we all know the damaging effect of unsubstantiated/uncorroborated stories.
RogalskiThreads: 9
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 May 17, 10, 15:38    #93
Seanus:
They had a reputation for being sharks in business but I guess they had to be in order to survive, never mind prosper

Oh please. So the times I've been ripped off and cheated in Poland justifies similar treatment of Poles then does it??? There are good and bad in every ethnic group - and this applies as much to the Jews as to any other group. To ascribe stereotypical characteristics to a group as a whole is ... just stupid.
yehudiThreads: 1
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 May 17, 10, 17:10    #94
Seanus:
Zionism is focussed in on Jerusalem largely, yehudi, you should know that.

Zionism is about jews returning to the land of Israel and renewing sovereignty. It's not focused on a particular city although Jerusalem is the holiest part of Israel.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 May 17, 10, 19:19    #95
I didn't ascribe that term at all, Rogalski, as I have VERY limited experience of Jewish people. There is good and bad in every group, that's true, and I never said otherwise. I'm just saying that they had the reputation but can't vouch for its validity.

Renewing sovereignty? When was it lost? You are right, yes, but what does Zion mean, yehudi?
yehudiThreads: 1
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 May 18, 10, 13:41    #96
Seanus:
Renewing sovereignty? When was it lost?

It was lost during the Roman occupation, regained for a couple of years in the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135 and then lost again till 1948.
Seanus:
but what does Zion mean, yehudi?

Zion is a loose term that is applied in various ways. It first appears in the writings of the Prophets and refers variously to any of the following:
The land of Israel
Jerusalem
A particular hill in Jerusalem (Mount Zion)

The term "Zionism" comes from the concept of the "return to zion" which features in the Psalms (126:1). In this context it means a return to the land of Zion.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 May 18, 10, 16:33    #97
That's a long time without sovereignty and for others to stake their claim to that land, wouldn't you say? Britain had no right to hand it over to you. The UN also. Kosovo, for example, was neglected by the Serbs for a short time but they regained their interest quickly and now want it back. They are not going to get it without a miracle. It was made easier for Israel to get its sovereignty back.

Thanks for the info regarding the second part. What is your interpretation of Palestinians and their right to the land, yehudi? How long did they/have they occupied the land for and under what claim? Why weren't they driven off earlier if indeed they have no claim?
RogalskiThreads: 9
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 May 19, 10, 19:10    #98
Movement of populations after wars/conflicts is quite normal, cf. Poles from western Ukraine moved to western Poland (formerly part of Germany) after the war, and Germans from the west of Poland to Germany; the realignment of different populations in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia after the war in 90s there. The post-war 1947 borders of Israel are recognised in international law.
richasisThreads: 5
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 May 19, 10, 19:29    #99
Seanus:
What is your interpretation of Palestinians and their right to the land, yehudi? How long did they/have they occupied the land for and under what claim? Why weren't they driven off earlier if indeed they have no claim?

Excellent questions, all.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 May 19, 10, 21:44    #100
Thanks, richasis :) It is hard to respect the authority of the UN as an international mediator, given what they didn't do in Srebrenica, for example. Also, the enforcement of the Genocide Convention elsewhere was lacking. The UN put the recognition of Israel notion together very quickly. Yes, it was an issue that had been built up continuously before but not through their auspices. It was like they just rubber stamped it and the Brits sneaked out with their tails between their legs.

Rogalski, the borders are recognised, yes. However, the current state of play demands more analysis. The hardliner party, Likud, are being driven by hawks who want a fundamental reevaluation of the 1967 6-day war victory scores. Netanyahu is proposing settlements in all manner of places. The problem is that we have moved away from the Oslo Accords where Israel offered Arafat a lot. Likud have learned that granting concessions is not going to work with the Palestinian authorities. Neill Lochery recommended that they move away from doing that (from budging). The Palestinians weren't prepared to accept the Oslo solution which was quite generous in ways. It's an intractable, Catch 22 predicament.

There really is no chance for peace with Hamas and Likud in power. Not a prayer!
yehudiThreads: 1
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 May 20, 10, 11:05    #101
Seanus:
What is your interpretation of Palestinians and their right to the land, yehudi?

The arabs living in palestine have a right to live in palestine. They have the right as individuals to political representation in one form or another. They have no national political right to have this country as their own since they were never a separate nationality in all of history. The term "palestinian" referring to the arabs of this country has only been in use for a few decades as a reaction to the creation of Israel. Till then they were simply arabs just like their relatives in jordan and syria.

Seanus:
How long did they/have they occupied the land for and under what claim?

They never occupied the land as a nation or country. Arabic speaking people migrated to and from this area over hundreds of years during the Ottoman occupation from Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Arabia and even the Caucasus. Those who migrated to the area between the jordan and the sea never constituted a nation distinct from other arabs.

Arabs first began claiming the right of independence in the middle east with the breakup of the ottoman empire in WWI. As a result they got Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait and the Emirates as independent arab countries (not to mention the arab countries carved out of french north africa). We Jews got one country. And, no, I don't think anyone has a right to take that away from us.
plk123Threads: 30
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 May 20, 10, 11:14    #102
yehudi:
The term "palestinian" referring to the arabs of this country has only been in use for a few decades as a reaction to the creation of Israel.

BS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Origin_of_name

the rest of what you say is a bunch of zionist crap too.
caprice49Threads: 4
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Edited by: caprice49  May 20, 10, 11:32    #103
yehudi:
They have no national political right to have this country

Who says so!!! Israel was formed in Switzerland round a table with no Palestinians present. All a political whim or was it pressure?

Personally, I think the people of Israel should hang their heads in shame. Survivors of the holocaust so quick to remind us all whenever & wherever possible of the horrors that took place. Yet, it appears this history has not taught the Israelis anything, for are they not doing what was once done to them??? Have they really forgotten the feeling of displacement and not belonging and having nowhere to go? I presume it was ok to march into Palestine villages and removing people forcibly or in some instances through scare stories that the villages were under threat. And did the Palestinians (those who had not been shot) return to their villages after a period of time to find the villages had been demolished and a new village erected not too far away with the same name?
And what's going on now?: A wall all the way round! With no freedom to move around outside of its boundaries are the Israelis just creating another form of concentration camp??

It should be the time to put differences to rest and even forget some humiliations experienced with various conflicts and let these people live as human beings.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 May 20, 10, 12:35    #104
Yehudi, the Arabs in Palestine?? Show me Palestine on a map. Go and type Palestine into Google Maps and see what you get. Where is Palestine? Can you clearly delineate the boundaries? It doesn't fulfil the criteria of a national state as you have marginalised them. Why talk of a 2-state solution when you are implying that they already have one?

In one form or another? What on earth does that mean? Never a separate nationality because they were never afforded that status. They are a distinct group from Jordanians and Syrians, doesn't that tell you sth? If they have no country of their own, why not grant them the same privelege as was granted to you guys? In such a case, there must be a 2-state solution, otherwise it is merely dangerous favouritism.

Also, they staked their claim during the time when you gave up your sovereignty. Do you remember that 1900 year period? ;) ;) ;) In Europe, conquest wasn't desirable but it was accepted as a means of land redistribution and ownership. We even accept swamping now (Kosovo). They replaced you guys. What is your take on Kosovo, yehudi? It's an analogous situation is some respects.

No, it was used before WWI, yehudi. It broadened its scope after 1948, yes, but it was still very much under discussion before the first world war. Also, like Israel, they have biblical roots.

Oh, so they occupied like squatters and settlers like many Jews, right? No? Then what is the Palestinian Mandate then? What was the distinction criteria, yehudi? What, they suddenly popped up as a group of people distinct from Jordanians and Syrians? Don't they have a right to live and aren't they afforded protections under international law?

You got that country because one Nathan Birnbaum stumbled across the idea of Zionism very late on in the day. In Europe, the Romans were eventually defeated so why didn't the Jews oust them back then? You had Judea and Israel back in 900BC and a very organised society for those times. Face it, you gave it up. Just imagine how Poles would react if you asked them to return property to you and you can then begin to imagine how Palestinians must feel.

The Palestinians are being made to live like pigs with little or no water, poor sanitation and under constant surveillance. Is that fair??
yehudiThreads: 1
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 May 20, 10, 14:02    #105
Seanus:
Show me Palestine on a map.

Show me Persia on the map. Palestine is just a European term for the same piece of land we call Israel.
Seanus:

Why talk of a 2-state solution when you are implying that they already have one?
Good point. They already have a lot more than one. I listed 8.
Seanus:
why not grant them the same privelege as was granted to you guys?

They were offered exactly the same privilege in 1947 and they rejected it. Also after the Camp David talks.
Seanus:
Also, they staked their claim during the time when you gave up your sovereignty.

When exactly did the "palestinians" stake their claim?
Seanus:
No, it was used before WWI, yehudi

Before WWI the term Palestine referred only to the ancient homeland of the Jews, as in "Zydi na Palestina".
Seanus:
Then what is the Palestinian Mandate then?

That was the mandate given by the League of Nations to build a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Look it up.
Seanus:
What, they suddenly popped up as a group of people distinct from Jordanians and Syrians?

Just as suddenly as the nation of "East Germany" popped up. They are as indistinguishable from Jordanians as E germans were from W germans. Separated only political events, not by ethnicity.
Seanus:
The Palestinians are being made to live like pigs with little or no water, poor sanitation and under constant surveillance.

Where do you get your facts from? Palestinians live in villages, towns and cities, most in decent houses by mideast standards and they take showers as often as you do. They do not live in prison camps.
Miguel ColombiaThreads: 3
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 May 20, 10, 14:15    #106
Seanus:
The Palestinians are being made to live like pigs with little or no water, poor sanitation and under constant surveillance.


That´s the fate they chose when in 1948 they rejected the UN´s idea of a Palestinian state near the Jewish one.
1jolaThreads: 33
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 May 20, 10, 18:01    #107
Miguel Colombia:
That´s the fate they chose when in 1948

Had you chosen your fate in 1948? Do you know your fate?
Miguel ColombiaThreads: 3
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 May 20, 10, 18:22    #108
1jola:
Had you chosen your fate in 1948? Do you know your fate?


Did you really fail to understand my sentence? If Palestinians had been a bit smarter back then ,there would be no Gaza as of today.
guzzlerThreads: 6
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 May 20, 10, 18:26    #109
In Czarist Russia, a Jewish boy is called up for the war against the Turks. His tearful mother takes leave of him at the railway station and implores him: "Don't overexert yourself! kill a Turk and rest. Kill another Turk and rest again"........... "But mother!" the boy interrupted her. "What if the Turk kills me?"......."Kills you?" the mother exclaims in sheer disbelief "But why? what have you done to hlm?"
richasisThreads: 5
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 May 20, 10, 19:58    #110
guzzler:
In Czarist Russia, a Jewish boy is called up for the war against the Turks. His tearful mother takes leave of him at the railway station and implores him: "Don't overexert yourself! kill a Turk and rest. Kill another Turk and rest again"........... "But mother!" the boy interrupted her. "What if the Turk kills me?"......."Kills you?" the mother exclaims in sheer disbelief "But why? what have you done to hlm?"

Believe it or not, anecdotes similar to this were commonplace around the dinner table amongst some of my (Jewish) family members.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 May 20, 10, 20:08    #111
yehudi:
They are as indistinguishable from Jordanians as E germans were from W germans.


Problem is that the Bedouins of Jordan don't want a palestinian state. Remember the black September? The take over of the Palis could only be stopped because the King clamped down quick and very hard.
The Palis in Jordan have never recovered from that, Pali Queen or not.
This situation is not comparable with East/West Germany.
To make Jordan a Pali state is not an option!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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Edited by: MareGaea  May 20, 10, 20:18    #112
yehudi:
They were offered exactly the same privilege in 1947 and they rejected it.


This is true. The Arabs, during the talks about the forming of Israël or a combined state rejected any form of compromise out of sheer arrogance, thinking they were in the best position and they would win anyway. When they eventually lost, they ended up with nothing. They tried to correct that two days after Israël was declared, but they lost again. Face it, the Arabs had a splendid chance of forming a bi-national state in Israël and they blew it themselves. And indeed, the Arabs also rejected Camp David and Oslo, only in the first half of the nineties they seemed to be willing to compromise. But then Rabin got killed and there were yet again massive suicide bombing attacks and everything was placed on hold.

From what I hear from very liberal Israeli friends, the Arabs don't have it too bad at all within the borders of Israël.

You can say what you want about Israël and I don't always agree with their politics as such, but at least they strike back when innocent civilians and children for the so manieth time are victims of coward suicide bombing attacks. They do sth about it, othe countries should take example from this.

Furthermore, I've seen a few known PF-anti semites participate in this thread. Don't be fooled by a faked sympathy for the Palestinians from them. They don't give a shyte about the Palestinians. To them Palestinians are merely a vehicle to vent their anti semitic slurs once more.

Bratwurst Boy:
To make Jordan a Pali state is not an option!


It is already a Palestinian state. The majority is Palestinian in Jordan. And besides, what other raison d'être would Jordan have than to serve as a Palestinian state? Petra is nice, but not really sth to build a state on, huh?


>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Miguel ColombiaThreads: 3
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 May 20, 10, 20:21    #113
MareGaea:
This is true. The Arabs, during the talks about the forming of Israël or a combined state rejected any form of compromise out of sheer arrogance, thinking they were in the best position and they would win anyway. When they eventually lost, they ended up with nothing. They tried to correct that two days after Israël was declared, but they lost again. Face it, the Arabs had a splendid chance of forming a bi-national state in Israël and they blew it themselves. And indeed, the Arabs also rejected Camp David and Oslo, only in the first half of the nineties they seemed to be willing to compromise. But then Rabin got killed and there were yet again massive suicide bombing attacks and everything was placed on hold.

From what I hear from very liberal Israeli friends, the Arabs don't have it too bad at all within the borders of Israël.

You can say what you want about Israël and I don't always agree with their politics as such, but at least they strike back when innocent civilians and children for the so manieth time are victims of coward suicide bombing attacks. They do sth about it, othe countries should take example from this.

Furthermore, I've seen a few known PF-anti semites participate in this thread. Don't be fooled by a faked sympathy for the Palestinians from them. They don't give a shyte about the Palestinians. To them Palestinians are merely a vehicle to vent their anti semitic slurs once more.


Enough said. This is what I wanted to post.
richasisThreads: 5
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 May 20, 10, 20:36    #114
MareGaea:
Furthermore, I've seen a few known PF-anti semites participate in this thread. Don't be fooled by a faked sympathy for the Palestinians from them. They don't give a shyte about the Palestinians.

Of course not - Palestinians ARE Semites. Hence, anti-Semitic = Anti-Palestinian.

Now, as for Ashkenazim who 'settle' Israel by playing themselves off as Semites...
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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 May 20, 10, 20:45    #115
richasis:
Of course not - Palestinians ARE Semites. Hence, anti-Semitic = Anti-Palestinian.


And anti Jewish.

richasis:
Now, as for Ashkenazim who 'settle' Israel by playing themselves off as Semites...


So it's ok to spill some vile on them? And besides, the distinction by those characters is never made: to them it's THE Jews.

>^..^<

M-G (would still make it racism. And racism is simply wrong)
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  May 20, 10, 20:48    #116
MareGaea:
It is already a Palestinian state. The majority is Palestinian in Jordan


It's not a Palestinian state or there wouldn't be an ME problem anylonger.
And just some willing it to be so won't change the facts either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan#Modern_Jordan

...
Recently, Jordan has revoked the citizenship of thousands of Palestinians in an attempt to thwart any attempt by Israel of permanently re-settling West Bank Palestinians in Jordan.

I mean Russia is already a slavic country too still I'm not saying we should re-settle all Poles and Ukrainians and whatnot in Russia because they are all Slavs anyhow!
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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Edited by: ShortHairThug  May 20, 10, 22:26    #117
MareGaea:
The Arabs, during the talks about the forming of Israël or a combined state rejected any form of compromise out of sheer arrogance, thinking they were in the best position and they would win anyway.

Perfect description of what Israel has done ever since.
MareGaea:
And indeed, the Arabs also rejected Camp David and Oslo

You seem to talk out of your ass on this one. Camp David indeed, what does a peace agreement between Egypt and Israel has to do with Palestinian issue? That’s all it was, bilateral agreement between two nations, it did not involve the rest of Arab nations nor the Palestinians for that matter. Oslo Accords on the other hand are just a set of mutually agreed upon general principles on how to precede with a two state solution, a transfer of power so to speak. The final negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on the permanent status would take place not later than the third year of the transition period and it would include issues such as Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations with other neighbors etc. What’s there to reject when nothing had been negotiated yet? You’re just full of crap, or perhaps you just believe in the propaganda primarily aimed at Americans.
MareGaea:
From what I hear from very liberal Israeli friends, the Arabs don't have it too bad at all within the borders of Israël.

Germans used to say same thing about Jews living under Nazi regimes in the 30’s but how would they know? Jews are not the ones who have to have different license plate on their cars that can easily be identified at a glance from 50 yards away by IDF even tell what city they live in. Reminds you of something? Perhaps certain emblems Nazis made Jews sew on their clothing for the same purpose. There are plenty of other parallels to be shown but of course as soon as anyone dares to say it out loud he’s an anti-Semite.
MareGaea:
You can say what you want about Israël and I don't always agree with their politics as such, but at least they strike back when innocent civilians and children for the so manieth time are victims of coward suicide bombing attacks.

And who is it exactly that IDF strikes at? The innocent civilians and children - that’s who, but when the IDF is doing the killing not some civilian nutcase, than the fact he’s sanctioned by the Israeli government makes it all kosher and not a terrorist act at all, even the victims are called collateral damage to dehumanize them all together. So when an average reader reads about those events he will associate them with some kind of an object, a property but not a living being.
MareGaea:
To them Palestinians are merely a vehicle to vent their anti semitic slurs once more.

Aren’t the Palestinians the ones who Jews vent their frustration on? Oh yes Palestinians are Semitic people so this makes it very much an anti-Semitic act on the part of Jews, intolerant racist anti-Semites, that’s who the Jews are, you simply refuse to acknowledge it and as usual point a finger at someone else. Jews are never wrong.
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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Edited by: MareGaea  May 20, 10, 22:34    #118
ShortHairThug:
Aren’t the Palestinians the ones who Jews vent their frustration on? Oh yes Palestinians are Semitic people so this makes it very much an anti-Semitic act on the part of Jews, intolerant racist anti-Semites, that’s who the Jews are, you simply refuse to acknowledge it and as usual point a finger at someone else. Jews are never wrong.


Ah, so you really don't have a clue. Like you care about Palestinians. You don't give a shyte about them and use them as vehicle. That's all it is.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
SeanusThreads: 22
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 May 20, 10, 22:46    #119
Sorry, M-G, there is simply no call for what the IDF does. Here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo. A MUST watch!! I could also forward you links containing the testimonies of IDF soldiers during OCL. They were damning against the state of Israel. They encountered virtually no resistance but you saw what they did.
richasisThreads: 5
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Joined: Jul 25, 09
Edited by: richasis  May 20, 10, 23:08    #120
And, conversely, here is what Palestine once was - Christians, Jews and All:

"The old lie that Palestine was dry desert waiting for a people is just that - a lie. This clip for all people to see the Beauty of the Palestinian People before they were ethnically cleansed and murdered and made into refugees by the State of Israel." - Youtube Poster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEBQ_bE7uA

"The video contains pictures of different Palestinian cities during the 1920's and 1930's, before the creation of the state of Israel by the Zionists in 1948." - Youtube Poster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGBoGKPZlQE


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