Did the pre-WW II conduct of Jews in Poland instigate antisemitism towards them?

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Edited by: MareGaea May 20, 10, 23:19 #121

Seanus, I have stated more than once that I do not, repeat, NOT agree to Israël's politics. But even before the IDF started their horror campaign, yet right after the creation of the Gaza Strip, there were rockets on Israeli cities and suicide bombings. Hamas, Hezbollah and the other terror organisations have to go and if the IDF goes in to delete them, then I agree with that. They shouldn't kill innocent civilians, though. Like Hamas and Hezbollah, Likud has to go too, otherwise there will be no peace. And Palestinians have proved that they are not really reliable over the times.

The piece was however above all aimed at known anti semitists who don't give a darn about the Palestinians, but use the issue merely as justification for their usual anti Jewish slur.

richasis:

Palestinian People before they were ethnically cleansed and murdered and made into refugees by the State of Israel

If they were ethnically cleansed, how come there are still a massive amount of Palestinians in Israël who enjoy decent rights there?

On the other hand, here is a view of what those "innocent" Palestinians also are capable of:

Edited it to the correct vid.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

guzzlerThreads: 6 Posts: 165 Joined: Mar 28, 10 ♂	May 21, 10, 03:02 #122
richasis: Believe it or not, anecdotes similar to this were commonplace around the dinner table amongst some of my (Jewish) family members. I do believe!... it was told to me by a Jewish friend yesterday. I thought it was funny because it sounded like something my own mother could have said.

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May 21, 10, 12:47 #123

M-G, it's very simple. Hamas and Hezbollah are there for the very clear reason that the IDF are so brutal. If they weren't so brutal in their beating and displacement of Palestinians, there would be less need for their militant wings. It was Jews that moved into Palestine, not the other way around.

I gave some stats to yehudi last year concerning the damage of rocket attacks. There are very few casualties indeed and if you want to compare killing ratios, be my guest. I corroborated research from different sources and came to an interesting conclusion. It would take the Palestinians 55 years, based on the present rate of killing, to kill as many Israelis as the IDF managed to do in just 3 weeks in OCL (Palestinians killed, you know what I mean).

M-G, those militant groups are needed to remind Israel that sb will strike back and not tolerate all their criminal actions.

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May 21, 10, 13:20 #124

Mr_Chips:

considering the state of the town when the movie was filmed, it (the synagogue) was a rather lavish, imposing and ostentatious display of wealth

LOL - that's got nothing to do with Jewishness per se. It's a populations' habit to splash the cash on religious edifices when they become too poius. Think of catholic churches in small towns and villages in the 80's and 90's.

Quite obscene in terms of resources spent and in very poor taste.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	May 21, 10, 18:28 #125
Dougpol2: Quite obscene in terms of resources spent and in very poor taste. Have you been to the little church called St Mary's Basilica in Kraków? I can't think of a more beautiful church in the world. Can you?

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	May 23, 10, 12:53 #126
Seanus: M-G, those militant groups are needed to remind Israel that sb will strike back and not tolerate all their criminal actions. This sounds like open support for terrorist groups. By this logic, one could extend this to say that militant Islamic groups are needed to remind the USA and the West in general that their criminal actions will not be tolerated around the world.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 23, 10, 12:57 #127
I prefer to look at them as freedom fighters who redress the balance and don't stand for their people being crushed. Militant Islam is a construct of the West through the Vatican. Why should they tolerate the invasions of the West? Poles and Scots should understand this well. I support reasonable things which go against decadence and greed!

Miguel ColombiaThreads: 3 Posts: 711 Joined: Apr 20, 10 ♂	May 23, 10, 13:58 #128
Lol at the leftist people supporting Palestine. I bet most of them don´t give a damn about Palestinians in general; they just need an excuse to express their antisemitic views. Useless idiots.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 23, 10, 14:01 #129
I'm not anti-Semitic at all. The IDF is the problem for me! No, I'm not gonna say that I know any Palestinians as I don't. Still, if you have seen the graphic and visual evidence of IDF brutality, you will take a stand.

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May 23, 10, 14:06 #130

Seanus:

No, I'm not gonna say that I know any Palestinians as I don't

ho ho ho, you don´t know any Palestinians. You have no muslim friends ( I believe) and yet you support their cause ,which is destroying Israel.

http://markhumphrys.com/israel.conflict.html (that´s one nice article full of facts and critics to both parties).

You can´t compare the IDF with hamas. I am still waiting to see the IDF using children and women as shields or hiding their weapons at schools, so the international community solidarizes with them.

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May 23, 10, 14:14 #131

I've known many Muslims over the years so you'd be wrong on that one, MC.

The IDF do use humans as shields, go and search. There are videos online.

You are right, we can't compare them. Hamas is a political party and the IDF are not. The IDF is fully militant, Hamas just have a military wing.

I don't support the destruction of Israel. I think court judgements and international law should be adhered to.

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May 23, 10, 14:18 #132

Seanus:

court judgements and international law

To hell with the UN. The Goldstone report is a shame for that "Organization" or whatever it is.

Seanus:

I've known many Muslims over the years

Buying Kebaps doesn´t automatically mean you have had Muslim acquaintances.

The funny thing about people like you is that Palestinians don´t have any sort of respect for your kind. For them ,you´re only tools.

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May 23, 10, 14:22 #133

The International Court of Justice is there for a good reason, MC. While we may disagree with its various pronouncements, its role is vital.

I tend not to buy kebabs. From secondary school and from my second university, I had the chance to talk with many and still have their e-mail addresses.

I'm aware of that and that's why I always say it's like Us Vs Them. Still, I will speak out against injustice!

Miguel ColombiaThreads: 3 Posts: 711 Joined: Apr 20, 10 ♂	May 23, 10, 14:24 #134
Seanus: Still, I will speak out against injustice! How about speaking up against the crimes of Palestinians against their people? Brainwashing children and forcing them to explode themselves? I have yet to see the international court of "justice" pronounce itself on the actions of Palestinians. I love how Israel doesn´t give a flying fück about whatever leftist people say.

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May 23, 10, 14:28 #135

I don't condone that either. Children must be free to decide and not indoctrinated. There is no doubt that Hamas are hardliners and I loathe the fact that they say 'Allahu Akbar' before beating or killing sb.

What's this nonsense about being leftist? I'm no such thing and you are trying to simplify matters. What stand I take depends on the issue and not blind allegiance.

There is much brutality against their own people, I agree. There are videos on just how brutal and I can't agree with them.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 23, 10, 14:40 #136
Whoever thinks there will be a 2-state solution is just deceiving themselves. Israel must grant no more concessions without a fully arbitrated solution by the international community. Still, the IDF must stop their violence and raids.

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May 23, 10, 14:43 #137

Seanus:

Still, the IDF must stop their violence and raids.

The IDF is, as the name says, a defense force. If there weren´t crazy Arabs swearing they will destroy Israel ,praising Hitler and generally annoying the hell out of everyone, there would be no violence from the IDF.

You clearly need to understand Arabic culture more. For an Arab, violence is the only way to solve a conflict with an infidel. For an Arab, there is no compromise. There is only either victory or defeat and they always want to win.

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May 23, 10, 14:47 #138

That's absolute crap, MC! They often beat women and children. They fire on people waving white flags that are working in fields. They are disgruntled pigs and look for the video I posted on why. 2 IDF Vets say exactly why.

Oh, I understand alright! It doesn't mean that I condone attacks on innocent people. Tell me, MC, how many of those 4300 Palestinians injured were terrorists? How many of those 1300 that died were criminals?

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	May 23, 10, 14:51 #139
Miguel Colombia: and they always want to win. Yet they seldom do. But then, they don't really need to win because they have more than enough arab states. So they can drag the conflict on for decades, refusing to compromise. The jewish people, on the other hand, has only one country and we can't afford to lose it. That's why we've offered compromises.

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May 23, 10, 14:55 #140

yehudi:

The jewish people, on the other hand, has only one country and we can't afford to lose it. That's why we've offered compromises.

Jewish people have a better understanding of diplomacy and civilized behaviour than Arabs do.

If exiled Muslims had created their state in 1948, there would have been no problems. It´s the virulent antisemitism of the Arabs that started it all.

Hell, if someone still reads the bible: there are a bunch of references to the Middle east conflict in both testaments.

This whole thing is supposed to be.

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Edited by: MareGaea May 23, 10, 15:22 #141

Seanus:

freedom fighters

Seanus:

Hamas and Hezbollah are there for the very clear reason that the IDF are so brutal.

Hamas (1987, during the first Intifadah) and Hezbollah (1978, during the Lebanese Civil War) were already in existence in the 80's before the IDF got brutal.

Seanus:

They often beat women and children

Women and children? There are loads of female suicide bombers, loads of children performing terrorist attacks. In this war NOBODY is innocent, Seanus! Nobody.

Seanus:

They fire on people waving white flags that are working in fields.

You got some videos of this actually happening? Or is it on account of Palestinian witnesses, who will do anything to put the IDF in a bad daylight?

Miguel Colombia:

It´s the virulent antisemitism of the Arabs that started it all.

No, that's not true. It's Arab arrogance that made them lose out on Israël. If they hadn't been so arrogant, there now would not have been any problems in the bi-national state of Israël. Arab anti semitism started later on, when they found out they were no match for the Israeli as such.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 23, 10, 15:35 #142
Yeah, they were there before but the IDF was brutal after the 6-day war. Nobody is innocent, right, but guilt is guilt and crime is crime, M-G. I have a few videos of them firing on innocent people, yes. Sniping from their checkpoints too. The witnesses were international workers, not Palestinians.

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May 24, 10, 10:08 #143

MareGaea:

Arab anti semitism started later on, when they found out they were no match for the Israeli as such.

Well, not exactly. In 1941 the arabs of Baghdad rioted and had a 2 day pogrom (called the "farhud") killing 180 jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud
Arabs in Aden rioted against Jews in 1947 killing 80. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Aden
These were both in ancient communities that predated islam. There was Arab anti-jewism (so you don't bring up the silly "arabs are semites" argument) for centuries. But it only reached pathological proportions in modern times when the struggle against Israel exploited latent anti-Jewish feelings and encouraged demonization of Jews and resurrected the most disgusting aspects of european antisemitism. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion sells like hotcakes in Cairo. Turkish TV series have Israeli soldiers raping prisoners, and a jewish-american doctor as an organ thief.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	May 24, 10, 10:46 #144
Anti - If someone is looking hard enough for resentment sure like hell he will find it sooner or later I wouldn't say that Arabs are anti-Semites provided their are Semites themselves, I take you are not implying deep self-hatred! It save to say that Arabs hate Israelis because their are invaders, successfully and ruthless, I guess you have to live with it.....

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May 24, 10, 13:18 #145

Ironside:

I wouldn't say that Arabs are anti-Semites provided their are Semites themselves

I guess you didn't read my post. So here's a summary:
1. Antisemitism is a term invented in the 19th century to make Jew hating sound more scientific. It's about Jews. Nobody refers to anti-Arab hatred as "antisemitism" so don't play that silly semantic game. We all know what the word means.
2. There was arab hatred (or at least contempt) of Jews before Israel came about as I detailed in my previous post. The current struggle made it more widespread.

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May 24, 10, 13:32 #146

yehudi:

It's about Jews. Nobody refers to anti-Arab hatred as "antisemitism" so don't play that silly semantic game. We all know what the word means.

first is not silly game and you know it, words create a map reality in mind, so semantic is important.
Secondly Jews are the only people who created scientific term to name people which don't like them, don't you find it silly ?:)

yehudi:

There was arab hatred (or at least contempt) of Jews before Israel came about as I detailed in my previous post. The current struggle made it more widespread.

well, so what ? I'm sure if you look hard enough you would find as hatred of Christians in Egypt or contempt of Christians in Europe.
As I said

Ironside:

Arabs hate Israelis because their are invaders, successfully and ruthless, I guess you have to live with it....

Do you really believe that I'm wrong?

VarsovianThreads: 85 Posts: 531 Joined: Nov 23, 06 ♂	May 24, 10, 14:58 #147
Interesting facts: Palestinians are one of the Semitic peoples. "Palestinian" in Turkish is "filistin".

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May 24, 10, 15:22 #148

Ironside:

Jews are the only people who created scientific term to name people which don't like them, don't you find it silly ?

Get your facts straight. The term was created by Wilhelm Marr, a 19th century german writer who wrote about the supposed clash between "germanism" and "semitism". In an age where religious antisemitism was losing it's attraction and romantic nationalism was on the rise, people like him and Gobineau developed pseudo-scientific race theories and preferred the term "anti-semitism" to the more primitive sounding "Judenhass".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	Edited by: yehudi May 24, 10, 15:35 #149
Ironside: Do you really believe that I'm wrong? How do you explain the arab riots against jews before there were "occupied territories" and before there was an Israeli army? Demonization of Jews (not just Israelis) is a tactic of the arab struggle against israel. But it started before the state and it was built on a pre-existing, religious-based Muslim contempt for Jews.

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May 24, 10, 16:11 #150

Espana, be careful when you use Hitler and Jew in the same sentence. It can be very offensive indeed for obvious reasons.

Why are many Jews pesky? They get on with their lives just like everyone else. Some are pesky, some aren't.

I've been to Auschwitz and I don't take too kindly to the reference of torture chambers. The great majority of those people were innocent and frightened out of their wits. If you dislike some Jews in your life, keep it between you and them. My beef is with the IDF but I try to keep that dislike rational. Even with them, I can concede that they serve a useful purpose in defending the country, just OTT at times.

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