Did the pre-WW II conduct of Jews in Poland instigate antisemitism towards them?

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	May 25, 10, 03:09 #151
yehudi: Antisemitism is a term invented in the 19th century to make Jew hating sound more scientific. So an Anti-Semite is not one who hates Jews, but rather one whom Jews hate?

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	May 25, 10, 11:24 #152
Richas, You have to work on your reading comprehension skills.

♂

May 25, 10, 12:04 #153

yehudi:

How do you explain the arab riots against jews before there were "occupied territories" and before there was an Israeli army?

they didn't want some non Muslim in the country - its simple!
you looking for some ingrained dislike of Jews, as I said if you look hard enough you will find it! At last you will believe that you found it !

yehudi:

19th century german writer

XIX century German writer bound to be full of it - they just have it that way - tribalism
by the way they reminiscent Jews in that regard - blood as determinant of oneness Jewishness.

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	May 25, 10, 12:35 #154
Ironside: blood as determinant of oneness Jewishness Every group has the right to set the rules by which they accept people as one of their own. What groups do not have the right to do is exterminate the people they exclude. That's where German nationalism went beserk. And the pseudo-scientific racial theories set the stage for that to happen.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 25, 10, 19:56 #155
But you have to admit, yehudi, the term is bandied about rather freely and loosely, right!? I really don't know enough about your average Jew to be anti-Semitic. I can't be against sth I don't know as I'm not prejudiced. As for the conduct of Jews in Poland, some have a tendency to exaggerate so we should take stories with a pinch of salt.

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	May 25, 10, 20:07 #156
richasis: yehudi: Antisemitism is a term invented in the 19th century to make Jew hating sound more scientific. So an Anti-Semite is not one who hates Jews, but rather one whom Jews hate? Actually, since the former is true, I thought you might concur with the latter.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	May 25, 10, 23:51 #157
yehudi: Every group has the right to set the rules by which they accept people as one of their own well, I pointed out similarities that all.... yehudi: And the pseudo-scientific racial theories set the stage for that to happen. Why use their terminology then?

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	May 26, 10, 10:03 #158
Ironside: Why use their terminology then? Very good point. The term is over used anyway and has lost it's punch. I'd rather use the term Jew-phobia but it doesn't roll off the tongue easily.

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	May 26, 10, 10:07 #159
yehudi: The term is over used anyway and has lost it's punch. That's because the term is BS and meaningless.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 26, 10, 10:35 #160
Well, the thread is asking us for stories as to why antisemitism exists, the rational aspect as opposed to the blind hatred part. For me, I would conjecture that many Poles would feel rather intimidated or defensive if quite a large outside group flocked on their territory. I mean to live of course.

♂

Edited by: richasis May 26, 10, 10:42 #161

Seanus:

I would conjecture that many Poles would feel rather intimidated or defensive if quite a large outside group flocked on their territory

Hi Seanus - that's interesting. southern (on another thread) makes the argument that, precisely because of her limited exposure to other cultures, Poland proves inherently susceptible to that very thing. Still, I like both you guys so both opinions work for me. :)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 26, 10, 10:49 #162
Yeah, Poland had exposure to Jews before WWII but it's all a question of scale. They had nothing like what Russia had. I don't hear much of Russian antisemitism.

♂

May 26, 10, 11:59 #163

Seanus:

many Poles would feel rather intimidated or defensive if quite a large outside group flocked on their territory... I don't hear much of Russian antisemitism.

But they'd been living there for centuries. It's not as if they arrived overnight. Unlike the Poles who arrived in th UK post-2004. Presumably you defend the right of Brits to be defensive and aggressive towards Poles living among them?

As for Russian antisemitism, under the Czars, Jews had been confined to a Pale of Settlement, were subject to many discriminatory laws, and had often been the victims of pogroms, many of which are thought to have been organized by the Tsarist authorities. Stalin also used antisemitism as a political tool. If you haven't heard much about Russian antisemitism, perhaps that indicates you need to read a little more widely.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	May 26, 10, 12:15 #164
Seanus: Yeah, Poland had exposure to Jews before WWII but it's all a question of scale. They had nothing like what Russia had. No, Russia had just under 3 million, and over 3 million in Poland. In fact, nowhere in the world would you find such a concentration of Jews since you were talking about exposure.

♂

May 26, 10, 13:07 #165

Seanus:

I would conjecture that many Poles would feel rather intimidated or defensive if quite a large outside group flocked on their territory.

Jews were in poland almost as long as Poles were. In wasn't an outside group coming from elsewhere and arousing resentment. It was a separate ethnic/religious group that was part of Poland for centuries. Hatred of Jews was not a reaction to the presence of Jews, it was an integral part of European culture. It's roots were religious, economic and psychological.

Seanus:

They had nothing like what Russia had. I don't hear much of Russian antisemitism.

Read some history books. Most "Russian" jews were in Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania (not Russia proper) and they migrated there from Poland. These places had no shortage of anti- Jewish hatred and violence – does the word "pogrom" ring a bell?

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	May 26, 10, 13:11 #166
yehudi: Hatred of Jews was not a reaction to the presence of Jews, it was an integral part of European culture. It's roots were religious, economic and psychological. Guess that would be down to lack of assimilation?

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	May 26, 10, 16:29 #167
convex: Guess that would be down to lack of assimilation? Especially for such an accommodating country?

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	May 26, 10, 16:45 #168
richasis: Especially for such an accommodating country? The Silesians, Tatars, Kashubians, Sorbs, Lithuanians... they seemed to have integrated fairly well.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 26, 10, 16:55 #169
Rogalski, it's certainly not common knowledge but my reading doesn't dip into such issues. Yehudi, those Russians were likely mad and I don't guess it was so widespread.

♂

May 26, 10, 17:08 #170

convex:

Guess that would be down to lack of assimilation?

Well, of course that's a factor. But anyone who has read the Bible would know why we couldn't allow ourselves to assimilate. As the Blues Brothers would put it, "We're on a mission from G-d". Modern secular people can mock that, but Christians can't.

Aside from that, look at the country where Jews assimilated the most – Germany. German Jews were so enthusiastic about assimilating that they felt more German than the Germans. It didn't work out very well, did it?

♂

May 26, 10, 23:25 #171

yehudi:

Hatred of Jews was not a reaction to the presence of Jews, it was an integral part of European culture.

its rather more complicated then that !

yehudi:

Jews were in Poland almost as long as Poles were.

Depend what you mean by "were"
And almost make a big difference .....like 500 years ?

convex:

they seemed to have integrated fairly well.

well, what do you know about integration being from USA and all!

NomsenseThreads: - Posts: 47 Joined: Sep 20, 09 ♂	May 27, 10, 04:02 #172
This whole discussion seems to suggest that it was Poles who are responsible for the Holocaust. I feel I have to state the obvious: it was Germans, not Poles, who mass-murdered Jews. Poles did not welcome Germans with open hands. Just because Poles were unable to defend their country does not make them responsible for the concentration camps.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 27, 10, 07:59 #173
Concentration camps? Then concentrate on this, what was the name of the Polish camp beginning with Ł? It became a talked about place only by the year 1989.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	May 27, 10, 08:29 #174
Seanus: what was the name of the Polish camp beginning with Ł? Yes, you definitely talk too little about communist prisons and communist crimes on this board. This is the wrong thread for that though.

Einstein"s son

Dec 3, 11, 15:40 #175

Your lame attempt to justify the unjustifiable and excuse the the inexcusable is reprehensible. The barbaric, bestial conduct of Polish and German citizens against their Jewish neighbors is a permanent stain on Western Civilization. How can any rational human being understand the cowardice, evil, satanic and despicable conduct which caused Jewish children to be burned alive. In a 1000 years when no one quite remembers who were Poles and Germans, Jewish people will remember the details of the Holocaust.

ReservoirDogThreads: - Posts: 125 Joined: Nov 22, 11 ♀	Dec 3, 11, 15:55 #176
Jewish people will remember the details of the Holocaust. We will remember you also ;)

♂

Dec 3, 11, 15:57 #177

Einstein"s son:

Your lame attempt to justify the unjustifiable and excuse the the inexcusable is reprehensible. The barbaric, bestial conduct of Polish and German citizens against their Jewish neighbors is a permanent stain on Western Civilization. How can any rational human being understand the cowardice, evil, satanic and despicable conduct which caused Jewish children to be burned alive. In a 1000 years when no one quite remembers who were Poles and Germans, Jewish people will remember the details of the Holocaust.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. *takes a break* HAHAHAHAHAA.

This has to be a joke. PLEASE.

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Dec 3, 11, 16:11 #178
Einstein"s son: In a 1000 years when no one quite remembers who were Poles and Germans, Jewish people will remember the details of the Holocaust. possibly. folks seem to have forgotten the one 1,000 years earlier. first mention of holocaust was in the time of longshanks (Ed I)

JonnyMThreads: 15 Posts: 3,897 Joined: Mar 9, 11 MEMBER ♂	Dec 3, 11, 16:18 #179
Wroclaw: first mention of holocaust was in the time of longshanks (Ed I) Ultra Orthodox Jews still won't move to York, and apparently some won't mention it by name. The same with Norwich.

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Dec 3, 11, 16:23 #180
JonnyM: Ultra Orthodox Jews still won't move to York, and apparently some won't mention it by name. The same with Norwich. i was just throwing something in the pot. but i'm amazed by what you said. i had no idea.

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