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Why did the reformation not have a huge effect on Poland?

Cardno85Threads: 33 Posts: 857 Joined: Jul 11, 08 MEMBER ♂	Aug 31, 10, 22:33 #1
Now I am not a total history buff, but I was watching a series on the history of Scotland which was heavily affected by the Reformation of the Church. However, I don't see much evidence of it here in Poland. Is there a particular reason for this? Sorry for the ignorance, just curious.

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Aug 31, 10, 22:39 #2

I'm also not a history buff but what I know is that Poland was pretty tolerant those days for other faiths, there were some protestant groups such like Bracia Polscy. If you know polish there is on wiki whole article about reformation in Poland:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformacja_w_Polsce
I would read it and sumarize the conclusion for you if you don't know Polish but I don't have time right now. Maybe later.

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Aug 31, 10, 22:41 #3

Possibly cos Scotland was close to England and John Knox, the main guy in the scottish reformation had worked there. Also it might have been political, as a rejection of France.

The Ref in Germany was also largely political and that might also be a reason that Poland wasn't affected so much, as a rejection of German changes.

That said, prussia did become protestant, as the Baltic branch of the Teuton Order converted. Also, Poland was multi-faith anyway (Orthodox, catholic etc) and didn't really do much to help the counter reformation (indeed, it openly welcomed protestant settlers; Scots, dutch etc).

Dunno, good question.

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Aug 31, 10, 22:58 #4

Maybe they were just happy with how things were? *shrugs*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

...
The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, effected by Western European Catholics who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice — especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices — that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the church’s hierarchy, which included the Pope.

...because the Germans for sure weren't.

RubasznyRumcajsThreads: 9 Posts: 281 Joined: Mar 29, 08 ♂	Aug 31, 10, 23:17 #5
reformation had some influence in Poland- but after war with Sweden (Potop Szwedzki) most protestants had a choice- convert to catholicism or GTFO somewhere else (for example: Bracia Polscy).

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Aug 31, 10, 23:40 #6
RubasznyRumcajs: reformation had some influence in Poland- but after war with Sweden (Potop Szwedzki) most protestants had a choice- convert to catholicism or GTFO somewhere else (for example: Bracia Polscy). Yes, before the Swedish invasion protestants were quite numerous, including major Polish and Lithuanian noblemen, and widely tolerated.

MEMBER ♂

Sep 1, 10, 13:14 #7

Trevek:

Possibly cos Scotland was close to England and John Knox, the main guy in the scottish reformation had worked there. Also it might have been political, as a rejection of France.

Really we didn't really want to reject France, they were always a close ally of Scotland (infact, our Queen was, at the time, betrothed to the French Heir and living in France) and England were a common enemy. Infact the Scottish and English Churches, although both Protestant couldn't be more different!

It is interesting to see that the war with Sweden had a big effect. Interesting points everyone, thank you.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 22:47 #8
RubasznyRumcajs: convert to catholicism or GTFO somewhere else I beg to differ, half my family was protestant with German heritage and they stayed in Poland a goooooooooood time. A lot of Szlachta was protestant but it was the... What was the name of... ah yes Jesuits.. Later on Jesuits converted a lot of Poles through the university of Cracow.

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 22:57 #9
Mr Grunwald: What was the name of... ah yes Jesuits.. Later on Jesuits converted a lot of Poles through the university of Cracow. The Jesuit college in Braniewo was co-founded by a Scot.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 23:12 #10
Trevek: The Jesuit college in Braniewo was co-founded by a Scot. Nice to know :)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 23:14 #11
It's nothing to be proud of, really.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 23:16 #12
Seanus: It's nothing to be proud of, really. Of what? (Not quoting people may create problems)

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Sep 1, 10, 23:17 #13

Cardno85:

Now I am not a total history buff, but I was watching a series on the history of Scotland which was heavily affected by the Reformation of the Church. However, I don't see much evidence of it here in Poland. Is there a particular reason for this?

The church was as corrupt as the Pakistani cricket team...Plus there was the whole power thing church v state...

Read Dissolution by C J Sansom, it'll give you a good insight in an interesting way.

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 23:24 #14
Mr Grunwald: Of what? I think he means being a Scottish jesuit.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 23:37 #15
RubasznyRumcajs: GTFO somewhere else (for example: Bracia Polscy). The only example. They were way too radical for anybody then.

Cardno85Threads: 33 Posts: 857 Joined: Jul 11, 08 MEMBER ♂	Sep 2, 10, 13:53 #16
Amathyst: The church was as corrupt as the Pakistani cricket team How topical...haha.

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Sep 2, 10, 14:38 #17
Cardno85: How topical...haha. Does this have something to do with tampering with people's balls?

Matt32Threads: 11 Posts: 193 Joined: Aug 30, 10 ♀	Sep 2, 10, 17:00 #18
So, Why did the reformation have no effect on Poland? I have learned so far that Pakistani cricked team is corrupt - are you saying that somebody is interested that much in this crappy game to pay real dibs ? Maybe they pay in crickets?:)

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Sep 2, 10, 21:58 #19

Starting from Vasa kings Polish national unity was based on Catholicism and modified pro-Vatican Orthodoxy (Uniats).
As a matter of fact similar situation like in France but by far less politically successful.

In addition during so called Swedish Deluge Polish protestants (at least many of prominent protestants like Radziwils or Jan Amos Komensky) supported Swedish aggressor what had dramatical consequences for traditional tolerance in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Sep 2, 10, 22:21 #20
Borrka: In addition during so called Swedish Deluge Polish protestants (at least many of prominent protestants like Radziwils or Jan Amos Komensky) supported Swedish aggressor what had dramatical consequences for traditional tolerance in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Although there were still large numbers of Scottish and Dutch protestants travelling there after the 'potop'.

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Sep 3, 10, 01:12 #21

Trevek:

I think he means being a Scottish jesuit.

Oooohh thanks!

Borrka:

what had dramatical consequences for traditional tolerance in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The tolerance in a broader aspect loosed it's meaning when the partitions started!
When in 1918 Poland was reborn, a lot of policies were mimicked from her neighbors.

"Why did the reformation not have huge effect on Poland?" Because there wasn't a King that had problems with the Church and it's power (there was a lot of religions in Poland-Lithuania) but a problem with the Szlachta! (Or Magnateria)

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Edited by: Trevek Sep 3, 10, 09:45 #22
Mr Grunwald: The tolerance in a broader aspect loosed it's meaning when the partitions started! Yes, the idea of a CATHOLIC identity of Poland kind of became concrete during the partitions, as a kind of politicised identity became formed via literature/art etc and the actions of secular/protestant/orthodox powers against a largely catholic Polish population.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Sep 3, 10, 23:20 #23
Trevek: Yes, the idea of a CATHOLIC identity of Poland kind of became concrete during the partitions, as a kind of politicised identity became formed via literature/art etc and the actions of secular/protestant/orthodox powers against a largely catholic Polish population. Yes I agree

dtaylor5632Threads: 48 Posts: 4,348 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Sep 4, 10, 00:55 #24
Tomorrow, ill give you all lecture on the topic, now, i must go to club....cant turn down invite ;)

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,551 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Sep 6, 10, 00:21 #25
Indeed, the Reformation did not impact Poland that much. By nad large, Poles felt no need to get invovled with fly-by-night sects when they already possessed the One True Faith.

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Sep 6, 10, 22:50 #26

Polonius3:

Indeed, the Reformation did not impact Poland that much. By nad large, Poles felt no need to get invovled with fly-by-night sects when they already possessed the One True Faith.

no, that is not right at al..

pawian:

Yes, before the Swedish invasion protestants were quite numerous, including major Polish and Lithuanian noblemen, and widely tolerated.

Mr Grunwald:

Later on Jesuits converted a lot of Poles

Borrka:

In addition during so called Swedish Deluge Polish protestants (at least many of prominent protestants like Radziwils or Jan Amos Komensky) supported Swedish aggressor what had dramatical consequences for traditional tolerance in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

the above are the right answers.. besides the consequences of the swedish deluge the counter reformation was strong in PL and from what i read, mainly because of heavy Jesuit involvement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus - PL-Lith commonwealth is mentioned numerous times.

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 23:40 #27
ON aspect may have been that the Scottish protestants often were happy to live alongside their catholic Polish neighbours. One local wrote, "While our neighbours are great heretics, they are also great neighbours".