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Ukrainian general Shandruk saves 29th Polish brigade in 1939

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Edited by: Nathan Mar 26, 11, 00:10 #1

Gen. Shandruk, then a colonel, saved Polish soldiers of 29th infantry brigade (19th brigade according to Wikipedia) that was under his command from annihilation during the September campaign. At the end of the war he received Virtuti Militari for his action. During the war he employed and helped to hide Polish friends from persecution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlo_Shandruk

W dniu 23. września 29. Brygada była zagrożona natarciem niemieckiej czołowej straży przedniej i oddziałami zmotoryzowanymi i pancernymi, które pojawiły się na odsłoniętym prawym-północnym skrzydle odizolowanej Brygady. W tej sytuacji płk Szandruk udał się osobiście na pozycje czołowych baonów, aby przekazać ich dowódcom plan odwrotu. Goniec gen. Przedrzymirskiego przybył z rozkazem odwrotu ok. godz. 10-tej rano. Ponieważ płk Bratro nie było na stanowisku dowodzenia, rozkaz ten przekazano na pozycje czołowe płk Szandrukowi, który po jego otrzymaniu pilnował osobiście kolejnego wycofywania się baonów z ich pozycji. Odwrót odbywał się pod silnym ogniem artylerii niemieckiej i przy okrążonym skrzydle, do którego zbliżały się już niemieckie pojazdy pancerne. Sytuacja Brygady była właściwie beznadziejna, jednakże wojska wyszły z pułapki szczęśliwie, unikając zagłady w dużej mierze dzięki osobistej ingerencji płk Szandruka, jego zdolności przewidywania, jego energii i odwadze. Zrobił on o wiele więcej dla uratowania wojska, niż można się było spodziewać od przeciętnego dowódcy w podobnej sytuacji.

http://forum.historia.org.pl/topic/2479-pawel-szandruk/
Why did I consider it important to mention? My previous discussion about Ukrainian SS-division "Galizien" was treated as fascist and was deleted. Some utra-Catholics (e.g., Torq) learnt in their life to cut everything black and white. When they hear word "SS" their mouths cover in foam and eyes turn red. General Shandruk was the last leader of 14th Ukrainian grenadier division "Galizien" (ukr. "Halychyna") in 1945. He saved lives of 2,000-5,000 Polish infantrymen (this is a range of a regular brigade). I hope that after realizing to evaluate any historical issue on the basis of actions and not assumed ideas or invented notions will help to reduce bigotry.

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Mar 26, 11, 01:24 #2

Nathan:

Gen. Shandruk, then a colonel, saved Polish soldiers of 29th infantry brigade

Glory to him for that

Nathan:

When they hear word "SS" their

brain thinks of excecutions rapes and abuses! Don't think that anyone hearing "SS" will be seeing it in a positive light!
Some wanted to fight the soviets (there was insidents of that happening among Poles aswell but, not in an SS manner) Nathan I understand your troubbles, believe me you guys had an country in opression! Just think of the quarrels I have with accepting Norwegian "SS" units...

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 26, 11, 19:42 #3

Nathan:

My previous discussion about Ukrainian SS-division "Galizien" was treated as fascist and was deleted.

Proper order. Well done, mods.

There's no place for nazi, SS-glorifying propaganda on PolishForums.

Nathan:

Some utra-Catholics (e.g., Torq)

*+ in nomine Patris + et Filii + et Spiritus Sancti*

Polonia Semper Fidelis, Nat - Polonia Semper Fidelis, and there is absolutely nothing you (or anyone
else, for that matter) can do about it :)

Nathan:

When they hear word "SS" their mouths cover in foam and eyes turn red.

I have to say that there is a certain exaggeration in your description, but I guess most decent,
sane people react similarly to hearing this word (not necessarily with the dramatic physiological
symptoms you described.)

Nathan:

General Shandruk

I fail to see the moral in your story, Nathan (and if there is, it's not a very uplifting one).

Let's see...

...we have a good cossack colonel in service of Poland in September 1939, who is a good
soldier in service of Najjaśniejsza, Najświętsza Rzeczpospolita, as many cossacks were
before him. Later, this good cossack turns crooked and joins the Waffen-SS, for which he is
promoted to the rank of general.

The moral of your story? Switch to the dark side and join SS, so you get promoted?
Wow - I'm impressed, Nathan, but let me give you a hint for the future - a good story
with a moral is one in which a crooked character turns good, not the other way around.

*rolls eyes*

Nathan:

to reduce bigotry

A great idea altogether. Strange that it should come from an SS glorifier, but still - thumbs up
to reducing bigotry!

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Edited by: Moderator Mar 26, 11, 19:47 #4

Torq:

*rolls eyes*

For once he is talking about an Ukrainian serving the Polish army in 1939 and you still gota jump on it? When will you even be satisfied? When you hear about thousands of Ukrainians standing on the barricades defending Warsaw from Nazi's?
Or that all Ukrainians bow in gratefullness only hearing Poland? GET REAL!
(mam nic przeciw tobie Torq ale nasz brat Ukrainiec prubuje {źle napisałem to słowo?} ze wszystkich sił żeby mieć dobry stosunek z Polakami! Gdyby nie to, to by był na Krasnojoarmisti.ru)

English only, in this part of the forums. Thank you.

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Edited by: 1jola Mar 26, 11, 20:24 #5

Col. Szandruk was indeed a brave officer and decorated with a highest order of Virtuti Militari. He was not involved in any war crimes and his move in 1945 to assemble Uki nationalists under the German flag can be explained as the Soviet threat was worse.

He avoided the Soviet concentration camp or bullet after the war because the Poles interceeded on his and his men behalf with the Brits and Americans who shipped these soldiers back to the Soviets on basis of the Yalta agreements. Many sad scenes reported by American servicemen witnessing these deplorable acts.

There were, however, men in his division guily of war crimes who did get away with murder but that is not what this thread is about.

Hero a Polish colonel and an Ukrainian general.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Torq Mar 26, 11, 21:10 #6
1jola: Hero a Polish colonel and an Ukrainian general. Of course, Shandruk is mainly a positive character and was an exceptionally good soldier, I don't deny that. It simply seems quite strange to me that Nathan is using him to somehow personally attack me, for pointing out to him the crimes of 14th SS grenadier division (Ukrainian), in an earlier discussion.

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Edited by: Mr Grunwald Mar 26, 11, 21:59 #7

Mr Grunwald:

Thank you.

sorry ill PM Polish texts next time

Torq:

Of course, Shandruk is mainly a positive character and was an exceptionally good soldier, I don't deny that.
It simply seems quite strange to me that Nathan is using him to somehow personally attack me, for pointing
out to him the crimes of 14th SS grenadier division (Ukrainian), in an earlier discussion.

It's becaouse of his earlier experiences and your a proof by visiting this thread

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Edited by: 1jola Mar 26, 11, 22:29 #8

Yeah, the link to previous discussions was unnecessary and as the general is an interesting character that I didn't know about. Made me read a few articles about him and I think his stance during the war was exemplary. He helped many Poles in Skierniewice. When gen.Anders decorated him in 1965 the USSR and PRL were furious and heaped the usual lies liberarly in the press. Kind of forgotten and neglected later in life.

I'm interested to hear Nathan how are they going to get their country back from the Russians now?

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Edited by: Nathan Mar 27, 11, 05:41 #9

Mr Grunwald:

I have with accepting Norwegian "SS" units...

I understand the reason behind the Norwegian SS people who were engaged in fight with the Soviet Union. It posed real threat and liberal European spirit of that time was not going to help Norway out. Of course, there were different people, but where weren't they?! Thanks for your opinion, Gruni.

Torq:

Polonia Semper Fidelis, Nat - Polonia Semper Fidelis

And that means exactly what? You may be fidelis to whatever you feel like, but you are not fidelis to being open-minded and see a bit of truth through the walls of hyper-offensive Catholicism. Religion is good as long as it not damages the brain cells. I worry about you, Torq.

Torq:

a good cossack colonel in service of Poland

Where did you find that he was a cossack? If he was a cossack than he was commanding a legion of Polish hussars. It is kinda 300 years old at the time of WWII, don't you think?

1jola:

There were, however, men in his division guily of war crimes who did get away with murder but that is not what this thread is about.

There were men in AK and AL armies guilty in war crimes and who escaped punishment, but as you said the thread is not about that and I agree.

1jola:

I'm interested to hear Nathan how are they going to get their country back from the Russians now?

I would gladly respond if I knew who are "they"?

Torq:

It simply seems quite strange to me that Nathan is using him to somehow personally attack me, for pointing
out to him the crimes of 14th SS grenadier division (Ukrainian), in an earlier discussion.

Ukrainian SS "Galizien", even though recruited from volunteers who were not that proficient in warfare stood for their country and fought Soviets. They lost over 50% of men at the battle near Brody. So, what is the problem of rome-bowing agents these days? I am proud of these soldiers. Now, go to the mods and close this thread too.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 27, 11, 09:21 #10

Nathan:

you are not fidelis to being open-minded and see a bit of truth through the walls of hyper-offensive
Catholicism. Religion is good as long as it not damages the brain cells. I worry about you, Torq.

:)

See, you're simply not able to conduct an ordinary civil conversation. Although, I'll give you
that - this time you didn't write anything about ultra-Catholic bigots, foaming at the mouth
on hearing "SS", so there's a progress.

Nathan:

Where did you find that he was a cossack?

I was just drawing a historical analogy; licentia poetica ;) You shouldn't take everything you
read literally - 5 year olds do that.

Nathan:

rome-bowing agents

:D

Good one! Seriously, Nat, where did you take all those "brain-dead, bigot rome agents" stuff from?
Did you find some old communist политрук manual on your attic? This is actually entertaining!

Nathan:

I am proud of these soldiers.

That's the problem - you're proud of an SS unit which commited atrocities on Polish civilians,
simply because it was a Ukrainian unit. That's blind nationalism of the first order.

Nathan:

Now, go to the mods and close this thread too.

I didn't go to the mods last time, if that's what you're suggesting. It looks like you're desperately
looking for an enemy, and you chose me - a horrible, ultra-Catholic Vatican agent. *rolls eyes*

Have fun, and I wish that you never have to meet a worse enemy than me, Nat.

♂

Mar 27, 11, 15:28 #11

Torq:

Did you find some old communist политрук manual on your attic? This is actually entertaining!

This is exactly what I see in learnt like a dogma words you profess about SS. You see no further than an association you made somewhere long ago in the past. And my words are licencia poetica as you said.

You shouldn't take everything you
read literally - 5 year olds do that.

Torq:

That's the problem - you're proud of an SS unit which commited atrocities on Polish civilians,
simply because it was a Ukrainian unit. That's blind nationalism of the first order.

Blind nationalism is blabber stuff with no supporting facts. Here is some you might want to read.

The Deschênes CommissionThe Canadian "Commission of Inquiry on War Crimes" of October 1986, by the Honourable Justice Jules Deschênes concluded that:
The Galicia Division (14. Waffen grenadier division der SS [gal. #1]) should not be indicted as a group. The members of Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada. Charges of war crimes of Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission. Further, in the absence of evidence of participation or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution.[51]

Torq:

Have fun, and I wish that you never have to meet a worse enemy than me, Nat.

You are not my enemy, Torq. I am just trying to reduce the foam around before Euro2012 since we need to make a civilized presentation of our good neighborhood. Many things need to be clarified and explained, grudges buried. If you are not able to put some argument of value and persuade me that I am wrong, but instead just condemn SS units just for fun, then I can imagine the blokes which will come with club-scarfs and a few brain-cells that will initiate unnecessary disturbances. There won't be gen. Shandruk anymore ;) It is a nice mutual therapy session.

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Mar 27, 11, 15:33 #12

Nathan:

The members of Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada.

And just how many 10s of people entered Canada? The vast bulk of the Division was split between somewhere in Scotland and a town in Yorkshire. Thes people did not undergo ANY questioning,just a clean slate and a nod and wink that ,should the cold war turn hot they would be one of the first groups sent into the USSR.

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Mar 27, 11, 15:50 #13

isthatu2:

Ok, let's say even everyone has remained in Scotland or England. We have 2011 outside. There were many attempts to stick something to the Division, but somehow in 66 years nobody did. Strange, isn't it?

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,225 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Mar 27, 11, 15:52 #14
Nathan: Strange, isn't it? No,not at all,most of the files still come under the UKs (Britains) Official Secrets Act and will not be revealled untill 2045. We can talk "facts" then.

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Mar 27, 11, 16:04 #15

isthatu2:

No,not at all,most of the files still come under the UKs (Britains) Official Secrets Act and will not be revealled untill 2045.
We can talk "facts" then.

Perfect. But also notice that war crimes are never put on hold. So, if the UK keeps something secret it wouldn't definitely be war crimes, otherwise, what about the country's reputation?
*Sorry, I have to leave now. Talk to you later, isthatu2.*

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Mar 27, 11, 16:13 #16

Nathan:

But also notice that war crimes are never put on hold

Aww,bless you,someone who still thinks there was a difference between the sneaky black arts on the different sides of the Iron Curtain.
How lovely,unfortunatly our western "democratic" governments could and did hide far worse than the odd "minor war crime".
The war crimes of a certain group of people nominally under British Army command at the end of the war have never been officiaally investigated, many of the perpetrators emigrated to a certain place in the eastern med in 47,but that should have been beside the point. Real Politik says many murkey stones were left deliberatly unturned after the war.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 27, 11, 16:15 #17

isthatu2:

We can talk "facts" then.

Exactly.

Besides there are several ongoing investigations by Instytut Pamięci Narodowej, so maybe
we will have enough evidence before 2045.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/14_Dywizja_Grenadier%C3%B3w_SS_%281_ukrai %C5%84ska%29#Zbrodnie_wojenne._Prowadzone_.C5.9Bledztwa

If Nathan is so interested in the findings of the investigators, he can contact IPN and receive
information about invetigations being conducted. Even if there weren't so many indications, relations
of witnesses and investigations in progress, glorifying the formation and saying that you're proud of
them on a Polish forum would be a risky undertaking. Doing that in current situation is not only
provocative and silly, it's undermining the good will and the process of reconcilliation between the two
nations.

Nathan:

like a dogma words you profess about SS

All SS formations (apart from SS Reiterei) were considered criminal organizations
by the International Military Tribunal in Nürnberg. End of.

Nathan:

I am just trying to reduce the foam around before Euro2012 since we need to make a civilized
presentation of our good neighborhood.

Why? I would rather see honest reconcilliation and admitting the crimes from both sides,
than making a false "presentation of good neighbourhood". Besides, Euro 2012 is a football
tournament, and it's supposed to be a good football tournament, nothing else. Let's keep
politics out of it.

Nathan:

instead just condemn SS units just for fun

Go complain to Nürnberg - they condemned SS long time before I did.

The saddest thing of all is that Germans considered you (just like all other Slavs) to be no better
than animals - untermenschen to be killed or enslaved, and your beloved divison swore allegiance
to Adolf Hitler. So forgive me if I'm not too enthusiastic about them, and let's wait until the secret
archives are open, because even if a half, or even a quarter of the crimes connected to SS Galizien
will turn out to be true it would still mean that they were just a bunch of murderers. If I were you,
I would wait with calling them heroes until then.

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,225 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Mar 27, 11, 17:01 #18
I do feel the sudden urge to pull on my old light blue base ball cap with the pretty picture of the globe on it..... Im on the "we just dont know everything " side, an unhappy median between the two of you maybe?

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Edited by: Nathan Mar 28, 11, 05:25 #19

isthatu2:

Aww,bless you,someone who still thinks there was a difference between the sneaky black arts on the different sides of the Iron Curtain.

I don't. But the thing is I don't believe anyone in the West would give a damn about prosecuting Ukrainian soldiers just to show off one's "democracy" and love of "justice". It is not an issue with your country's soldiers, correct? It was a foreign army. One worries only about own problems; when there is an opportunity to tear someone else apart to look good, one won't hesitate. Since there was no such move, I logically presume that there were no grounds.

Torq:

he can contact IPN

Torq, you know how I regard this institute's reliability. It is not an independent or international entity which would have given it some objectivity.

Torq:

The saddest thing of all is that Germans considered you (just like all other Slavs) to be no better
than animals - untermenschen to be killed or enslaved

Not Germans, but Nazis. Big difference. But even if, SS "Galizien" fought against the Soviets, which were the worst evil at that time, at least for my nation. Allegiance for Hitler was only to get weapons to shoot and defend one's own state. If the Soviets were defeated, SS "Galizien" would join UPA and fight against Nazis the same way, no doubt whatsoever. Do you think they really loved wójka Hitlera :)

Torq:

All SS formations (apart from SS Reiterei) were considered criminal organizations
by the International Military Tribunal in Nürnberg.

If that were so, then they would have persecuted Ukrainians, Lithuanian, Estonians etc. They didn't. And it says a lot. Don't say they fell in love or had no time. They had and have all the time in the world.

Torq:

let's wait until the secret archives are open, because even if a half, or even a quarter of the crimes connected to SS Galizien will turn out to be true it would still mean that they were just a bunch of murderers.

So, you realize how much you yourself believe in the IPN BS investigations?

isthatu2:

Im on the "we just dont know everything " side, an unhappy median between the two of you maybe?

That's closer to my opinion, isthatu2 :) I am just trying to say that one cannot judge just based on the title of the formation, putting away the available and possessed by international community up till now knowledge.
*Reads about Polish soccer fans' behaviour in Lithuania after 0-2 loss. This is exactly what I am talking about. And I know why in Lithuania. You see, Torq, we have to work on it* :)

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Edited by: isthatu2 Mar 28, 11, 14:58 #20

Nathan:

Since there was no such move, I logically presume that there were no grounds

I was with you up to that last bit. In an ideal world,yes,you would be right,but,1945/6 was not an ideal world and many "grounds" would have been conveniently covered up. How many nazi scientists got a free pass by working for NASA etc?
Im still not saying all members of the 14th were evil nazi murderers though. For a start the ones in Doncaster seem to have got on fine with the Polish veterens who lived here too post war. If they could say live and let live I think their Grandchildren and outsiders like myself can at the least offer them the benifit of doubt.

♂

Mar 28, 11, 15:50 #21

Looks like Szandruk was a good guy and I can understand why some western Ukrainians (or Balts) decided to fight on the German side, however you can't expect us to glorify them.

Nathan:

It is a nice mutual therapy session.

Eh ? I'm sure vast majority of Poles don't even know that there was Ukrainian SS division during WW2, you are trying to fix something, which wasn't broken. 14th division is first of all internal Ukrainian problem as by far more Ukrainians were fighting on the Soviet side.

♂

Mar 29, 11, 01:10 #22

isthatu2:

can at the least offer them the benifit of doubt.

Absolutely. I personally have great respect to these veterans and I have never doubted their humane side.

Grzegorz_:

however you can't expect us to glorify them.

I have never expected or hoped for. My point is that no accusation can be were there is no proof + neither post WWII commissions, nor Canadian justice decisions of 1950s and 1980s recognized that there were facts supporting Polish accusations.

Grzegorz_:

I'm sure vast majority of Poles don't even know

Well, you are mistaken. Lots of dirt from quite a few individuals is spilled over in comments to the Ukrainian newspaper I read and this is one of the reasons I posted here. That scum angers me and I have to vent on PF, where else? :)

Grzegorz_:

14th division is first of all internal Ukrainian problem

I agree. Unfortunately, you don't live across the border.

♂

Mar 29, 11, 10:23 #23

Nathan:

My previous discussion about Ukrainian SS-division "Galizien" was treated as fascist and was deleted. Some utra-Catholics (e.g., Torq) learnt in their life to cut everything black and white

I agree that one shouldn't take everything black or white and I agree that people of Galitsia had gotten into a trouble having a hard choice between unarmed resistance (following suit of the Poles) and collaboration with their enemy. They preferred the latter, trying to pick the easiest way out which as they supposed would save their lives.
But… what is that if not a fascist division? Unlike UPA “Haliczyna” fought under German decoration, with German commanding officers, having German as a command language, being a part of the SS which was in its turn an integral part of the Third Reich. They had fought most of the time on the territories of Slovakia, Slovenia and Austria. The divisioneers had fought Slovaks who rose against the fascist, Slovenian partisans, with Soviets… and the excuse of that they tried to liberate Ukraine from the commies is laughable. Not every Soviet soldier was communist; most of them just wanted that the fascist went home. And every day of resistance and battle brought death to 1000s whose only blame was that they wanted to free their land from the occupants. This was not bolshevism that fell; those were individuals with their own individual views. All the heroism of the Galitsians had unfortunately only prolonged the agony of the Third Reich they had served to.

Nathan:

General Shandruk was the last leader of 14th Ukrainian grenadier division "Galizien" (ukr. "Halychyna") in 1945

Nice try to whitewash “Galizien” via third party. But in this thread I would like to see a couple things: 1) no lie; 2) if you said A, say B.

Until 24th April, 1945 when the SS division “Galizien” became UNA (Ukrainian National Army), the division had been under principal command of Fritz Freitag. Though even then, after the reorganization to UNA Freitag hadn’t lost formal control over it till his suicide on 10th of May (something that most of Ukrainian officers in G. should have done). So it can be said that the last leader of the division was Fritz Freitag. It’s said that Freitag had treated the Slavs as 2nd grade people (perhaps it’s true though many of his deeds indicate the contrary) but he was in spite of that an Officer, he’d never been a miserable traitor.

Shandruk who was a head of UNC in the beginning of 1945 had managed to stay out of the good part of the division’s military way, thus at that point he’s quite clean, he had also despised the Germans and by every mean had tried to cut any ties with them which against the background of the division deserves some respect too. His bravest and the most decisive step in the story was reformation of "Galizien" to UNA (or to be more precise its inclusion to UNA), although one may see it as a mixed blessing. One the one hand, he tried to whitewash the name of the company, changing its signboard, which from a Ukrainian point of view must have been good, on the other that let the divisioneers escape from justice. The oath to UNA given on 25th of April 1945 made those who had been since July 1943 SS-soldiers, soldier of “Pershay divizia UNA” who therewith escaped punishment, while “Dirlewanger” and “Handschaft” got shot and hung for exactly same things.

Nathan:

He saved lives of 2,000-5,000 Polish infantrymen (this is a range of a regular brigade)

So he eventually saved more Ukrainian SS-soldiers' lives.

Shandruk had also suggested that the German officers of the division would be captured and brought to justice which would supposedly avert suspicions from the Ukrainian part of the division, though his suggestion was declined by other officers who up to then had become brothers in arms with the Germans. This however led to Freitag’s suicide for he preferred death to be taken prisoner.

Nathan:

Ukrainian SS "Galizien", even though recruited from volunteers who were not that proficient in warfare stood for their country and fought Soviets

They did in case you suggest their country was Germany. It was "freiwilling", Nat, just like that, in quotes. You forget to mention that those you call "volunteers" were in fact kind of forced to become that. They didn’t have much choice. For the first thing after the occupation the Germans didn’t let Galitsians to own the land and the output norms for the Galitsian farmers were pretty high. Unless a farmer fulfilled a quota, he got fined or the worse got his property confiscated. Serving in the division could free one’s family from the quota. That was a nice stimulus.
Besides the notion of (if I’m not mistaken) Wächter was clear – to recruit people at any price, whether they wanted it or not. They did want. Propaganda and instinct of self-preservation had done their job.

Nathan:

They lost over 50% of men at the battle near Brody

Their death was totally pointless. They had died for nothing but for Hitler. It hadn’t either brought the day of Ukrainian independence closer or made the world happier.

Nathan:

I am proud of these soldiers

I don’t see why. What’s there to be proud of? It’s just a tragedy. It made good nobody and that you’re still trying to see any pride makes no one good.

Nathan:

We have 2011 outside

And it gets harder to found the one who's proud of the SS.

Nathan:

SS "Galizien" would join UPA and fight against Nazis the same way

They'd had that chance. But unlike the Poles and UPA they preferred the easiest way...

Nathan:

Do you think they really loved wójka Hitlera

I don’t know but they swore allegiance to Hitler’s troops and to him. Here’s oath dated 24th November 1944.
I swear in the sight of God to fight bolshevism for freedom of the Ukrainian people and Ukraine in full and implicit subordinate obedience to the commander in chief of the German Army and to all the fighters against the bolshevism of European Nations, to Adolf Hitler and, as a brave soldier, to give my life for the oath if needed.

Nathan:

I hope that after realizing to evaluate any historical issue on the basis of actions and not assumed ideas or invented notions will help to reduce bigotry

You must spoil before you spin.

1jola:

I'm interested to hear Nathan how are they going to get their country back from the Russians now?

What do you mean?

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 29, 11, 11:11 #24

Sasha:

and collaboration with their enemy. They preferred the latter, trying to pick the easiest way out which as they supposed would save their lives.

Why do you think that was so? That so many Ukrainians preferred the Germans to the Russians? All because of propaganda?
Can't it have something to do with the abysmal treatment on the hands of their soviet overlords before?

You really shouldn't point fingers on behalf of the Soviets!

Sasha:

I don’t see why. What’s there to be proud of? It’s just a tragedy. It made good nobody and that you’re still trying to see any pride makes no one good.

That they tried to do the best for their people? Germany at least promised them independence, freedom from the soviet yoke...

Why can you be proud of your soviet soldiers but Nathan should not be of his own?
Your enemy's enemy is still your friend!

How did the glorious soviet army behave that so many Ukrainians preferred the Nazis!

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Mar 29, 11, 11:45 #25
Bratwurst Boy: How did the glorious soviet army behave that so many Ukrainians preferred the Nazis! C'mon now... How long did that preference last?

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Mar 29, 11, 12:19 #26

Bratwurst Boy:

How did the glorious soviet army behave that so many Ukrainians preferred the Nazis!

Yeah , Hitler made a big mistake in wanting to treat the Ukrainians and Belarussians as sub human slavs... When German troops first entered Ukraine they were welcomed by girls throwing flowers at them , Hitler could easily have had the whole Ukrainian army fighting on his side against the Russians...

The outcome of the war against the Soviets may have turned out rather differently had he been willing to accept them as good soldiers , but he saw them only fit for slave labour and was not willing to let them fight alongside German soldiers....

It did not stop Himmler from forming a Ukrainian Waffen SS division though...

♂

Edited by: Sasha Mar 29, 11, 13:59 #27

Hmm... it seems like you BB's going to defend your "sexy" army whatever the facts are.

Bratwurst Boy:

How did the glorious soviet army behave that so many Ukrainians preferred the Nazis!

For the first thing, not as many as you might have thought... Within the two years from 1943 till 1945 there had been about 30 thousand Ukrainians who had gone through the "Galizien" 1132 of which had deserted (many to the RA). That's a drop in the bucket compared to millions of Ukrainians who fought for the RA.
Btw it wasn't really a rare thing when galitsian had to shoot his fellow countrymen.

Bratwurst Boy:

Why can you be proud of your soviet soldiers but Nathan should not be of his own?

The question is rhetorical and I'm not sure if it needs to be answered...
I'm proud of my grandparents and my uncle. :) They were not collaborators or rapists or pillagers. They were not aggressors, they were not fascists. As simple as that... I'm not proud of any soldiers who fall into either of categories. Better now?

Bratwurst Boy:

That they tried to do the best for their people? Germany at least promised them independence, freedom from the soviet yoke...

The price of your promise was hardly bearable for both the Russians and the Ukrainians.
Can you enlighten me what does suppresion of Slovakian uprising have to do with "doing the best for the Ukrainians"? In a rude fashion they tried to do the best for their families and themselves (debt burden I wrote about). But the easiet way is seldom the right.

Bratwurst Boy:

Why do you think that was so? That so many Ukrainians preferred the Germans to the Russians? All because of propaganda?

Not many and not all. :) As I already said there was a debt burden for the farmers. Besides Galitsia was occupied by the fascists. isn't it enough?
Can one blame them for that they prefferred collaboration to unarmed guerrilla war? :) It's up to you...

Bratwurst Boy:

Can't it have something to do with the abysmal treatment on the hands of their soviet overlords before?

It cannot. I recommend that you open a map and see where Galicia was before 1939. There had been neither terror nor Holodomor against them.

Bratwurst Boy:

You really shouldn't point fingers on behalf of the Soviets!

BB I'm speaking in my own name and you cannot deprive me of my position however false it is from your perspective. Unless you agree, willkommen, June 22nd is coming soon.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 29, 11, 14:10 #28

Sasha:

Hmm... it seems like you BB's going to defend your "sexy" army whatever the facts are.

You misunderstood me! *squeals*

Sasha:

For the first thing, not as many as you might have thought

Don't tell me how it worked...after the defeat of the Nazis there had been no collaboration at all and everybody and his grandmom had been in the resistance, I know.

But the support of the Nazis had been huge...the german army was good but not that good to have been achieved so much without so much support.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend!" was the motto of the day.

If you like it or not but your people were not seen as the nice friends as you might like to believe. The Nazis were your enemy, that made them preferable for millions.

Of course once they lost and your nice army was back in town it would had been suicide to admit any of that.

Even today only a part of it is known and accepted, it was a taboo for more than 50 years, during your generous and friendly reign, and the serious research has just started in the concerned countries.

Sasha:

They were not collaborators or rapists or pillagers.

How can you know?

Is there any open discussion in Russia at all about ROA, the russian Hiwis in the Wehrmacht, the rapists and pillagers in the front troops?

Sasha:

They were not aggressors,

Well, millions of people thought and think otherwise...but then, most of them are no Russians.

Sasha:

BB I'm speaking in my own name and you cannot deprive me of my position however false it is from your perspective.

Well...and Nathan spoke of his.
He as the same right to be proud of his peoples soldiers then anybody else.
It's all a perspective thingy and his perspective is as right and acceptable as is yours or mine.

Sasha:

Unless you agree, willkommen, June 22nd is coming soon.

Is that a threat? ;)

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,188 Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂	Mar 29, 11, 14:24 #29
Sasha: June 22nd is coming soon. What happens then....?

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Mar 29, 11, 14:38 #30
wildrover: What happens then....? We ALL die :D

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