Sasha: Can you enlighten me what does suppresion of Slovakian uprising have to do with "doing the best for the Ukrainians"?
The unit fought from somewhere middle August of 1944 till May 10, 1945 not on the territories of Ukraine. Ukrainians fought alongside Slovak army to get rid of the communist locust in Slovakia, because Ukraine was taken over at that time and the Soviets were about to enter Slovakian lands.
Sasha: For the first thing after the occupation the Germans didn’t let Galitsians to own the land and the output norms for the Galitsian farmers were pretty high. Unless a farmer fulfilled a quota, he got fined or the worse got his property confiscated. Serving in the division could free one’s family from the quota. That was a nice stimulus.
Of course, people/farmers were not happy about it. But these quota were considered relatively reasonable if you consider the war, although I don't justify them a second, compared to what the Soviet regime did in the eastern part of Ukraine sending armies and forcefully taking the bread from people and anyone who refused or hid it somewhere shot on spot. Then brought Holodomor, deaths of millions, destruction of private property. Read about "kulaks" as those farmers were called who wanted to work and had something. What happened to them?
Sasha: They had died for nothing but for Hitler
They didn't die for Hitler as many Germans didn't die for him either.
Sasha: Here’s oath dated 24th November 1944. I swear in the sight of God to fight bolshevism for freedom of the Ukrainian people and Ukraine in full and implicit subordinate obedience to the commander in chief of the German Army and to all the fighters against the bolshevism of European Nations, to Adolf Hitler and, as a brave soldier, to give my life for the oath if needed.
I swear in the sight of God to fight bolshevism for freedom of the Ukrainian people and Ukraine in full and implicit subordinate obedience to the commander in chief of the German Army and to all the fighters against the bolshevism of European Nations, to Adolf Hitler and, as a brave soldier, to give my life for the oath if needed.
I think these words tell a lot. Introduction of Hitler meant nothing to these soldiers, the goal is clearly visible - free from communism Ukraine.
Sasha: It made good nobody and that you’re still trying to see any pride makes no one good.
I didn't think it would make you good ;)
Sasha: They'd had that chance. But unlike the Poles and UPA they preferred the easiest way...
And? If to die on the front is the easiest way, then what is the hardest? Neither Poles, nor Russians are in love with any of Ukrainian armies, beit UPA or SS Galizien division or Cossacks from 17th century. It is really remarkable.
Sasha: Unlike UPA “Haliczyna” fought under German decoration, with German commanding officers, having German as a command language, being a part of the SS which was in its turn an integral part of the Third Reich.
Decoration and emblems:
Insignia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dyvizia_Galychyna.svg
Compare to Lviv City Coat of arms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lviv-modern-coat-of-arms2.png
Colors of the division were: Blue and Yellow (the Flag of Ukraine)
Of course, the higher command was German as there needs to be coordination of the army according to the general plan, plus they were the ones who had the weapons. To consider the unit an integral part of the Third Reich is a bit far-fetched, but even if one does, what does it change?
Sasha: They had fought most of the time on the territories of Slovakia, Slovenia and Austria. The divisioneers had fought Slovaks who rose against the fascist, Slovenian partisans, with Soviets… and the excuse of that they tried to liberate Ukraine from the commies is laughable.
They fough in Slovakia for several months and it wasn't the most they fought for. Check the dates above. The division was founded in April 1943 and the Battle of Brody took July 1944. Now compare: 15 months in Ukraine, 9 months - Austria, Slovakia and Italy (if I am not mistaken)
Jan Stanislav, the director of the National Uprising Museum in Slovakia, denied that the division or that Ukrainians took part in any brutalities committed against the Slovak people at this time.[26]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_ (1st_Ukrainian)#The_division_in_Slovakia
Bratwurst Boy: Of course once they lost and your nice army was back in town it would had been suicide to admit any of that.
As the Soviets retreated in 1941 they murdered all the prisoners without trial. One can imagine what happened to those who were POWs and returned home where the sweetest Sashian regime which everyone should have fought for blindly started to rule again.
Bratwurst Boy: Your enemy's enemy is still your friend!
Absolutely.
Sasha: All the heroism of the Galitsians had unfortunately only prolonged the agony of the Third Reich they had served to.
And the agony of the murderous Stalin with his clique for that matter.
Sasha: on the other that let the divisioneers escape from justice.
What justice? The one proferred by Canadian justice twice?
Sasha: Shandruk had also suggested that the German officers of the division would be captured and brought to justice which would supposedly avert suspicions from the Ukrainian part of the division, though his suggestion was declined by other officers who up to then had become brothers in arms with the Germans.
And?
Sasha: You forget to mention that those you call "volunteers" were in fact kind of forced to become that
You know that this is BS. Nobody forced no one. To fight against the Communist regime which brought deaths to at least 6 million Ukrainians just 9 years ago one doesn`t need any argument or force.
wildrover: Yeah , Hitler made a big mistake in wanting to treat the Ukrainians and Belarussians as sub human slavs... When German troops first entered Ukraine they were welcomed by girls throwing flowers at them , Hitler could easily have had the whole Ukrainian army fighting on his side against the Russians... The outcome of the war against the Soviets may have turned out rather differently had he been willing to accept them as good soldiers , but he saw them only fit for slave labour and was not willing to let them fight alongside German soldiers....
I agree. If he wasn`t that much interested in unnecessary `Lebensraum` and changed his policy towards Jews and other people, at least, let them leave, the Soviet regime wouldn`t survive a year and there would enough Lebensraum for the whole Europe.
Sasha: The galitsians were set into a position where they chose to collaborate. The thing is certainly a black page in Ukrainian history and I see no point in being proud of a tragedy. It's a tragedy whatever one's perspective is.
Tragedy is when someone lacks reasoning, Sasha. Tragedy of my nation is that millions who died in our eastern territories from wars and famine were replaced by Russian communists who don`t see in a national way and work as a fifth column which undermines progress. Read about the following law, which was just one of many Soviet laws, for whom according to YOU peoples of Ukraine, Slovakia, Belorus`should have rationally fought. What is really outstanding is the fact that you, being a young guy, think like an old Communist sadistic fart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Spikelets
|
