UPA War Criminal not a Hero of Ukraine

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Edited by: 1jola Apr 22, 10, 09:36 #1

Following the recent demotion of Bandera, Roman Shukhevych ceased to be a Hero of Ukraine since he was not a citizen of Ukraine. A rather lame reason, but we Poles concur with this decission of Ukrainian court, of course for different reasons. If only now the Ukrainians would aknowledge that OUN/UPA were war criminals, we could resume our friendly relations.

http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/64630/

For those unfamiliar with Taras Czuprynka:

In late 1942, Ukrainian nationalist groups began campaign of ethnic cleansing of Volhynia, and in early 1944, these campaigns began to include Eastern Galicia. It is alleged that up to 100,000 Polish civilians were murdered, by Ukrainian groups, including the OUN-Bandera, led by Mykola Lebed and then Shukhevych[26]. Shukhevych commanded the UPA during the time when some of those massacres occurred. In August 1943, during III OUN Convention Shukhevych accepted "Volhynia stategy" (ethnic cleansing) against Poles realized by Dmytro Klyachkivsky. As the Supreme Commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army he continued anti-Polish action in Eastern Lesser Poland (Eastern Galicia). In April 1944, main Command of UIA ordered massive ethnic cleansing of Poles from Galicia.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

and a larger picture of these death squads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

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Apr 22, 10, 13:18 #2

1jola:

Following the recent demotion of Bandera

It was wrong to give him a posthumous award in the first place if you going to do that you might as well give one to Stalin and Hitler because Bandera was just as bad.

1jola:

If only now the Ukrainians would acknowledge that OUN/UPA were war criminals,

That is like asking Russia to admit to Katyn

1jola:

we could resume our friendly relations

I wouldn't call them friendly at the moment but I hope that one day that this will be achieved

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Edited by: skysoulmate Apr 22, 10, 14:14 #3

Czarnkow1940:

1jola:
If only now the Ukrainians would acknowledge that OUN/UPA were war criminals,
That is like asking Russia to admit to Katyn

I agree...

To play the devil's advocate, has there been similar incidents from the Polish side? Where did all this seething hatred toward Poles came from?

I'm asking because I'm not sure I know enough about the eastern territories.

Where there's smoke...

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Apr 22, 10, 15:11 #4

skysoulmate:

I'm asking because I'm not sure I know enough about the eastern territories.

The Ukrainians "murder campaign" was provoked out of the oppression in the late 30'is
A lot of churches and homes were burnt down, maybe something around 300 I think but, I don't know for sure. You should ask Nathan or Torq on this questions as they have better knowledge about it.

Although Poland "occupied" Ukraine for a long time before Russia meddled in before the partitions of Poland.

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Edited by: Sasha Apr 22, 10, 16:03 #5

Czarnkow1940:

That is like asking Russia to admit to Katyn

There's a huge difference. Russian and Ukrainian politicians here are on absolutely different levels of understanding those problems. The question of whether Stalin had his hand at Katyn even for those from "Edinaja Rossija" is undebatable. So we practically have one step left toward the confession: to officially condemn the crime of stalin's regime, whereas Ukraine has recently moved in diametrically opposite direction given titles of National Heroes to both Bandera and Schuchevic. The moods of common citizens in western part of Ukraine (the ones who are of prime importance for Poland) are also scary...
P.S. Sky, good point... Net dima bez ognja (there's no smoke without fire).

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Edited by: 1jola Apr 22, 10, 19:21 #6

skysoulmate:

To play the devil's advocate, has there been similar incidents from the Polish side?

Murder of 100,000+ Polish civilians in Volhynia and East Galicia committed by UPA are not "incidents," unless one can call the Einsatzgruppen's extermination of Jews "incidents." The method was the same except the Einsatzgruppen were not as barbaric as UPA.

Mr Grunwald:

The Ukrainians "murder campaign" was provoked out of the oppression in the late 30'is

You are not familiar with the subject if you call it a "murder campaign" in quotes. I suggest you study the subject before you speak up. At this point, it would be wise for you to ask questions instead of making statements.

Sasha:

P.S. Sky, good point... Net dima bez ognja (there's no smoke without fire).

Bad point, Sasha. Using your reasoning, we could say that Germans must have had a good reason to exterminate the Jews.

Let's not mix Katyń into this, please, either.

Mr Grunwald:

A lot of churches and homes were burnt down, maybe something around 300 I think but, I don't know for sure. You should ask Nathan or Torq on this questions as they have better knowledge about it.

You are trying to rationalize murder in a most pathetic way. Read the links I provided.

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Apr 22, 10, 19:38 #7

1jola:

Bad point, Sasha. Using your reasoning, we could say that Germans must have had a good reason to exterminate the Jews.

Let's not mix Katyń into this, please, either.

Jola if that would make it easier for you to comprehend and accept my point I will tell you that I clearly see Soviet fault in the very birth of Nationalistic movement in the Ukraine. Bandera would unlikely get any support if there were no pressure from Soviets.
Katyn and nazies killing jews is a different story. Good sayings don't always work.

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Edited by: 1jola Apr 22, 10, 19:52 #8

Sasha:

I clearly see Soviet fault in the very birth of Nationalistic movement in the Ukraine. Bandera would unlikely get any support if there were no pressure from Soviets.

Did the Soviets cause UPA death squads to murder Polish civilians? I have seen many arguments put forward on this subject but yours is new. Nationalism was a common occurence in Europe at that time but only the Nazis and OUN/UPA turned to population extermination. The Soviets did as well but not for the same reasons.

Sasha:

nazies killing jews is a different story

Of course it is, but the method was similar. In comparison, the German method was more humane, if we can call mass-murder humane. The important word here is the method.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Apr 22, 10, 20:15 #9
Mr Grunwald: The Ukrainians "murder campaign" was provoked out of the oppression in the late 30'is That and the disgraceful backstab of the Ukrainian People's Republic at the Peace of Riga (where Poland sold her 'ally' to the Soviets for 120 million roubles).

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Apr 22, 10, 20:16 #10

1jola:

Nationalism was a common occurence in Europe at that time but only the Nazis and OUN/UPA turned to population extermination.

In Western Europe everything was discussed a long time ago and generally the problem is closed. But in FSU (and some Eastern European countries) nationalism was a crime and nobody even try to discuss natioanalist's ideas.

May be this is a reason why it appeared as a fresh idea again - and in western part of Ukraine too?

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Edited by: skysoulmate Apr 23, 10, 05:20 #11

1jola:

Murder of 100,000+ Polish civilians in Volhynia and East Galicia committed by UPA are not "incidents," unless one can call the Einsatzgruppen's extermination of Jews "incidents." The method was the same except the Einsatzgruppen were not as barbaric as UPA.

You misunderstood my point.

I am not questioning the fact those murders did occur; neither am I questioning who committed them.

Instead I wonder why the Ukrainians were so hateful toward the Poles? No nationality has an inherent desire to kill. The fact so many of the Ukrainians volunteered to slaughter the Poles and so many of them volunteered to be guards in Nazi concentration camps tells me there was lots of hate involved.

So my question was how did the Polish powers and Polish citizens treat the Ukrainians overall? What was it that made their blood boil over?

Was it right? Of course not, but maybe there's something to be learned from past mistakes?

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Edited by: plk123 Apr 23, 10, 06:04 #12
sky, see grunwald's first sentence in post #4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Ukrainian_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

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Edited by: 1jola Apr 23, 10, 09:26 #13

Jed:

In Western Europe everything was discussed a long time ago and generally the problem is closed. But in FSU (and some Eastern European countries) nationalism was a crime and nobody even try to discuss natioanalist's ideas.

In Western Europe, and particularly in Germany and also in all of Europe fascism has been condemned, and we don't make make people like Himmler heroes who had organized and lead mass exterminations of civilian populations. Nazis also perceived the Jews as opressors of German people, and I supposse that the Scottish could say they have been opressed by the English for centuries. The present problem that pits Ukraine against what we believe in EU is that they are trying to glorify fascist nationalism, and Doncov inspired OUN is just that, trying to portray UPA as partisans fighting Nazis and the Soviets on par with partisans like AK. This does't pass the smell test. Any military formation which kills way more civilians than enemy soldiers are basically death squads, harassed by enemy soldiers who interupt their main task, not partisans deserving tittles of honor. This should be clear.

skysoulmate:

So my question was how did the Polish powers and Polish citizens treat the Ukrainians overall? What was it that made their blood boil over?

It is a gross mistake to think UPA represented all Ukrainians. It was a fanatical, extreme band lead by a group of convicted criminals with the sole aim to rid Ukraine of non-Ukrainians, this is in the middle of a war, which resulted in mass-murder of civilians. Lots of cases of mixed couples forced to kill their spouse and lots of Ukrainians murdered for aiding Poles or refusing to join in the murder. This was not some uprising of have-nots.

Mr Grunwald:

The Ukrainians "murder campaign" was provoked out of the oppression in the late 30'is

The ZSRR were also very concerned for the oppressed Ukrainians. They issued stamps comemorating the liberation of Ukis and Byelorussians from Poland on 17 September 1939.

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Apr 23, 10, 11:07 #14

plk123:

sky, see grunwald's first sentence in post #4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Ukrainian_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

Thanks, all good info...

Basically Russia is finally taking the responsibility for Katyń and maybe even other atrocities. Now many Poles expect (rightfully in my view) Ukraine to take a responsibility for atrocities committed by the Ukrainians.

I have to ask though, as I honestly do not know, has the Polish government ever taken any responsibility for mistreatment of the Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Jewish, etc. minorities? Yes I know that technically Lithuanians were not a minority due to the size of the country however it's my understanding that the Polish side ran the show most of the time.

I mean just reading some of the comments here on PF it's easy to realize that the Jews for example are blamed for pretty much everything on a very regular basis. Some of that might be warranted but I have a feeling there's still a lot of anti-Jewish bias in Poland.

Hard to "hate" Ukrainians, Lithuanians, etc. nowadays as they're not part of the Polish Commonwealth of today but there are still Jews left - all 10 or 15 thousand of them from what I read... ;)

I want to emphasize that I am not trying to diminish the Ukrainian atrocities here.

However, in my view unless all sides admit past wrongdoings there'll never be a true reconciliation. Poles, Lithuanians, Belorussians, Ukrainians and the Jews who lived in those territories have probably more in common than they realize.

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Apr 23, 10, 13:23 #15

skysoulmate:

Basically Russia is finally taking the responsibility for Katyń and maybe even other atrocities.

Let's leave that for another thread but you must be misinformed. Perhaps you only watch TV.

skysoulmate:

Now many Poles expect (rightfully in my view) Ukraine to take a responsibility for atrocities committed by the Ukrainians.

The European Parliament, Polish government, Jews, all disagree with this small minority of neo-fascists in Ukraine propagating the UPA myth.

skysoulmate:

Hard to "hate" Ukrainians, Lithuanians, etc. nowadays as they're not part of the Polish Commonwealth of today but there are still Jews left - all 10 or 15 thousand of them from what I read... ;)

Whatever your fantasy is, it's not on topic.

skysoulmate:

I want to emphasize that I am not trying to diminish the Ukrainian atrocities here.

You are only trying to divert the attention away from UPA.

skysoulmate:

However, in my view unless all sides admit past wrongdoings there'll never be a true reconciliation.

I don't get hippy on me, we're taking of genocide and glorification of its perpetrators.

skysoulmate:

Poles, Lithuanians, Belorussians, Ukrainians and the Jews who lived in those territories have probably more in common than they realize.

Patronizing. All those people lived in relative peace till the UPA decided it was time to exterminate the Poles instead of fighting the ocupants.

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Edited by: skysoulmate Apr 23, 10, 13:50 #16

1jola:

Let's leave that for another thread but you must be misinformed. Perhaps you only watch TV.

I thought Russia finally admitted the Katyń massacre? What am I missing?

1jola:

The European Parliament, Polish government, Jews, all disagree with this small minority of neo-fascists in Ukraine propagating the UPA myth.

What myth and how does my position differ from yours? Apparently this is a true boiling point issue for you and you choose to cherry pick people's responses without looking into the full reply.

1jola:

Whatever your fantasy is, it's not on topic.

Don't even know what you mean. Are you saying Poland/Poles always threated the minorities fairly? After all wasn't that why so much hatred existed in Ukraine against the Poles? What am I missing here? I'm not condoning the murders but where did this hate come from?

1jola:

You are only trying to divert the attention away from UPA.

Not at all. I am just trying to figure out where all the hate came from? The reasons are NOT an excuse but it's good to know what caused the conflict.

1jola:

I don't get hippy on me, we're taking of genocide and glorification of its perpetrators.

Who's glorifying them? Show me one single post where I glorified what they did? Just one...

1jola:

Patronizing. All those people lived in relative peace till the UPA decided it was time to exterminate the Poles instead of fighting the ocupants.

Not patronizing but pointing out that had the other side felt they were living in "relative peace" with the Poles this wouldn't have happened.

Again, NOT an excuse! However, apparently something was going on there were thousands of people volunteered to expel and/or kill the Poles.

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Edited by: Sokrates Apr 23, 10, 17:22 #17

skysoulmate:

Not patronizing but pointing out that had the other side felt they were living in "relative peace" with the Poles this wouldn't have happened.

Relative peace could only be achieved if Poles gave Ukrainians some of the historic heartlands of our country like Lwów, not only were Ukrainian reasons flawed from the beginning but highly unreasonable.

Eventually this resulted in a war that Ukraine of course lost, failing to win in regular combat they used WW2 as an opportunity to target the part of local polish society that could not fight back, the civilians.

skysoulmate:

Again, NOT an excuse! However, apparently something was going on there were thousands of people volunteered to expel and/or kill the Poles.

Yep, Ukrainians decided to carve a country out of polish soil, Poles reacted with administrative repressions which were fully justified since every country thats targetted with unjust and immoral attempts to annex its territory has the right to defend itself and a duty to protecting its people.

Though Ukrainians love to portray this as a freedom fight they omit the fact that they didnt build anything worth mentioning in the region, that when Poland entered the area over 500 years ago the ruthenian people were not a nation and their goverment joined Poland willingly.

In the end Ukrainians were forced to watch the polish success, 1920-39 were years of economic and infastructural boom, Poland had won a massive victory over Soviet Russia, revived itself with many of its historic territories and succesfully asserted itself on the international arena, at the same time Ukrainians failed on every field where Poles succeeded, much of the hate then and now stems from simple jealousy.

Edit.

To answer your question Sky, was there ground for resentment? Yes, was there any rational or irrational justification for what UPA did? No.

The only thing i can come up with is that UPA knew that Ukraine cannot compete with Poland militarily, culturally or economically so they decided to use the window of opportunity and wipe out men, women and children to remove Poles from the region, the fact that these people were themselves defencless and Poland at the time could not protect them due to nazi occupation was an added bonus.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 23, 10, 19:42 #18

Ethnical cleansings to claim the rights to lands for your own people were par of the course during the fourties, remember that!

Actually reading the postings here the relationship from Poland to Ukraine seems often similiar to the german/polish past I think.

But it isn't for Poles to define/deny/allow the Ukrainians their nation/nationalism/heroes as it would be ridiculous if Germany would try that with Poles.

I agree with Sky...this much hate must have a reason. "Living in relative peace", governed by cuddly and generous Poland can't be it, sorry! ;)
Maybe one has to be an unbiased, objective observer to see the huge plot holes in the national narrative....

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Apr 23, 10, 20:23 #19

Bratwurst Boy:

Ethnical cleansings to claim the rights to lands for your own people were par of the course during the fourties, remember that!

I knew you would find similarity between Nazi and OUN idea of nationalism and ethnic cleansing.

Bratwurst Boy:

Maybe one has to be an unbiased, objective observer to see the huge plot holes in the national narrative....

You are referring to your huge plot holes in this narrative.

Waiting for Ukrainians who claim these people are heroes. Where are the trolls who were here last week during national mourning?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 23, 10, 20:36 #20

1jola:

I knew you would find similarity between Nazi and OUN idea of nationalism and ethnic cleansing.

Well, you know me....when I think ethnical cleansing I think about the Vertreibung after '45.
This was also done by Poland to get rid of non-Poles to strengthen their claim to the new western lands.

As I said before, every people has their own version of history and has all the rights for that.
One peoples freedom fighters are other nations terrorist! The old game...

Remember the thread of the prussian ruling of their partition? I showed that Poles had all the rights, the prospered, a middle class grew, they could take parte in the political life and elections...they even could voice their hate in prussian news papers and could demonstrate...they lived in "relative peace" too!
And still....Poles who fighted for independence from Prussia are seen as heroes in Poland even if that meant later war and destruction.
Poles still hate everything Prussian because it was made to be the hated "overlord" to rally around and fight for an independent Poland, I can't see why Ukrainians should feel otherwise concerning Poles.

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Apr 23, 10, 21:18 #21

Bratwurst Boy:

Actually reading the postings here the relationship from Poland to Ukraine seems often similiar to the german/polish past I think

There's similarities allright but there's one principal difference, when Germany invaded Poland Poland was already a shaped state, it had culture, its had national identity and over 700 years of history, the nation and the elites by and large resisted the partitioning powers.

When Poland entered Ukraine there was no civilisation or cultural heritage, the elites welcomed the Poles with open hands and soon enough became polish themselves and only after over 350 years when the region became fully integrated into Poland and Poland heavily invested into it did the Ukrainians wake up that they want their own country, however by that time "their" country was full of polish cities.

Germany didnt build any new cities on the lands that got partitioned for example, it only claimed polish urban hubs as its own.

Bratwurst Boy:

Poles still hate everything Prussian because it was made to be the hated "overlord"

We hate everything prussian mainly because it took away our independence and you still fail to understand that buying people might not be enough if they want to and are entitled to their own country.

In Ukraine the question of this entitlement is much more complicated since Germany took over an already organised nation, Poland took over the lands before there was any nation or even a self identifying ethnic group there.

Bratwurst Boy:

I agree with Sky...this much hate must have a reason.

Mostly being a complete underdog and a huge inferiority complex, Poland avoided this mainly because it had its victories against Germany and for a long time a very prosperous country, Ukraine historically had nothing.

Eventually they started to blame Poles for living in a sh*tter and turned to Russians who proved that however unpleasant Poles could be Russians can do better, in the end Ukraine was left with a spit poor country and a very sour history with centuries of downs and virtually no ups.

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Apr 23, 10, 21:23 #22

Sokrates:

In Ukraine the question of this entitlement is much more complicated since Germany took over an already organised nation, Poland took over the lands before there was any nation or even a self identifying ethnic group there.

I agree with the first part but I'm not so sure with the second. I can hardly believe there wasn't any feeling of belonging or even tribal instinct in this part of the lands...

*damn, where is Nate when I need him*

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Apr 23, 10, 21:36 #23

Bratwurst Boy:

Poles still hate everything Prussian because it was made to be the hated "overlord"

Overlord?

Who's overlord in that picture and who's on his knees?

Prussia were our vassals between 1469-1641, that's 172 years. It's longer than
the period of Prussian occupation of some of our lands (123 years). They were
our vassals, who by historical chance and a string of incidents rose to power
and turned against their overlord - Poland.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho%C5%82dy_pruskie_1469-1641

They were good vassals - too bad they decided to act against us later. Oh, well...

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 23, 10, 21:38 #24

Torq:

Who's overlord in that picture and who's on his knees?

Well, that's the image posters here give me *We hate Prussia!"...I as a Prussia-fanboy are hurt by it! :(

Torq:

They were good vassals - too bad they decided to act against us later. Oh, well...

Don't sweat it...Prussia needed it's time to grow up!
Once we got ass kicked by Napoleon himself, we learned our lesson, changed what needed to be changed to kick HIS ass later....so you are not alone...;)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Torq Apr 23, 10, 21:39 #25
Bratwurst Boy: *We hate Prussia!" We don't hate Prussia - we're just dissapointed by the conduct of our former vassals.

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Apr 23, 10, 21:40 #26

Bratwurst Boy:

I agree with the first part but I'm not so sure with the second. I can hardly believe there wasn't any feeling of belonging or even tribal instinct in this part of the lands...

It was early XIV century, at that period no one in Europe had anything more than allegiance to a specific ruler and Ukraine had dozens of local warlords, the area got completely nuked by Mongols about 70 years prior to the polish invasion and from then was regularly raided by Tartars, everyone was fighting everyone else, add to that the fact that Ukraine was an actuall kingdom for less than two generations and said kingdom fell apart on its own over 300 years before Poland took over the show.

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Apr 23, 10, 22:12 #27

1jola. don't jump down sky's throat.. i think he wants to learn.. he is not fighting you.. and his questions are valid.

anyway sky,

some of what sokrates says is valid but the retaliations by upa and the others are for the years where there was polonization going on over there.. no matter how you slice it, that seemed to be the case.. that sure doesn't excuse cold blooded murder by them but that is what happened..

here are more links for you to read on.. i am trying to learn more about this stuff too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Eastern_Europe%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Galicia_and_Lodomeria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilsudski

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheism

definitely click the many links inside these articles.

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Apr 24, 10, 08:13 #28

However interesting the discussion about Prussia is, it belongs on a different thread.

PLK, Polonization, germanization, and russification are also interesting topics which belong elsewhere. This thread is about UPA, or rather our reaction to how UPA is viewed today as there is an effort to hide their crimes and accent their very minor role fighting Nazis.

BB is wrong; if today's Germans declared Globocnik a hero and started claiming he was a patriot fighting for the greatnest of Germany, we in Europe would have something to say. So yes, we can also tell Ukrainians who their heroes can be, or rather, what is accetable to the civilized world when they start waving Hauptsturmführer Roman Shukhevych as a hero and UPA as freedom fighters. He was a war criminal and UPA was a criminal organization whose activities are best compared to those of the Einsatzgruppen.

As no one so far here is familiar with military side of this organization, it would be pointless to ask for data showing their combat history. Historians confirm their extermination of the Polish population, and I'm waiting for some numbers of their actual combact results. We could compare those figures and see if they were "freedom fighters." The fighters implies fighting, so there must be figures of the KIA Germans in this "struggle for independence."

So far, UPA record is 100,000+ murdered civilians.

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Apr 24, 10, 08:24 #29

1jola:

PLK, Polonization, .... are also interesting topics which belong elsewhere.

nope.. this is very much on topic actually as that is partially why upa and oun came about.. whether you agree with that or not, that's what history seems to point to.. not the sole reason but definitely some of the reason.. were they criminal, most definitely but to some effect they started as freedom fighters and then morphed into something more then that..

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Edited by: Sokrates Apr 24, 10, 08:25 #30

1jola:

and I'm waiting for some numbers of their actual combact results. We could compare those figures and see if they were "freedom fighters."

Several battles against german police and military companies in the Karpaty mountains.

Also the large scale battle at Hurba in 1944 (where in 1943 the same units murderd polish civilians).

In the end UPA collaborated with the Germans most of the time, there were a few battles with the Soviets, one even on a brigade level (Hurba) but thats it.

UPA did not achieve any major results like AK, it did not liberate any major ukrainian cities and the amount of atrocities commited by them in Ukraine rivals Germany with UPA being significantly more savage in its endavours, as far as 1944 UPA received equipment and logistical aid from Germany.

plk123:

nope.. this is very much on topic actually as that is partially why upa and oun came about..

Interesting, could you please tell me why didnt Poles murder Germans in this manner after over a century of germanisation? Sadly UPA can be only explained by lack of maturity and underdevelopment of the ukrainian people as a nation.

plk123:

but to some effect they started as freedom fighters

Did they? From the beginning they worked with the Wehrmacht which was an occupying force, in effect they were never freedom fighters no matter what their charter said, you can't be a freedom fighter and support people who occupy your country.

Also another issue is that to be a freedom fighter they'd have to fight for Poland since the land they lived on belonged to Poland, because they strived to tear it from the other polish heartlands they were nothing short of a criminal guerilla force.

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