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Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?


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Edited by: pawian  Aug 1, 11, 17:01    #1
Introduction:
A remark by Poland’s foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski, that the 1944 Warsaw Rising against the Nazis was a “national catastrophe”, has been described by some opposition politicians as being “unacceptable” and unpatriotic.
Posting a link on his Twitter social networking website, Minister Sikorski described the ultimately doomed resistance by the Polish Home Army as a “national catastrophe.”
MPs from the national-conservative Law and Justice (PiS) party say that the remark is a stain against the memory of Polish patriots.
[.....]

http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/52650,Foreign-Minister-challenged-ov er-Warsaw-Rising-as-%E2%80%9Cnational-catastrophe%E2%80%9D-remark

It is strange that we haven`t debated it here yet. Maybe such a topic appeared long ago but was moved to archive. I checked the current search data and only two topics concern Warsaw Rising:
Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers

August Agbala - nigerian soldier in warsaw uprising

The first thread only has Warsaw Rising in its title but when you look through it, there is very little about it, subjects range from Jews to Polish vs German Gdańsk.


So, how about talking about the sense of Warsaw Rising?
Today is the 67th anniversary.

Facts, in short.

Germans seemed weak in summer 1944, they retreated through Warsaw on horse carts, broken, tired and scared shitless after a relentless Soviet offensive which reached the city on the right side of the Wisła River.

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Warsawians and underground resistance couldn`t believe their eyes - the German army dispersed and in retreat. Everybody (except for a few sceptics) believed that it was possible to throw Germans out of the city after a few day fighting and welcome the entering Soviets in the Polish capital by the Polish independent government.

That was a major mistake. Germans weren`t so weak as they seemed, what is more, they still fought on all fronts with incredible fanaticism.

Fighting broke on 1 August. A few dozen thousand resistant soldiers (mainly from AK but other resistant groups joined too) were armed in light weapons, and only 10% of them were armed at all.

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Despite that, and due to unbelievable heroism and bravery, Poles managed to liberate most parts of the left bank districts.
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However, major points like Okęcie Airport or bridges across the river were not taken by insurgents.

Enthusiastic residents of Warsaw joined the Rising unanimously - they provided fighters with food and water, built barricades, corridors through houses, prepared equipment for fighting fires etc. After 5 years of brutal occupation during which 600.000 Warsawians lost their lives (including 350.000 Jews), Warsaw was Polish again!

Children joined too. Maybe not so many as the popular myth about kid fighters goes, but there were as young as 12 year old insurgents.

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KIA of the Rising
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After initial successes, the situation got worse. Germans brought a few police units, most of them consisted of various scumbags (criminals) or collaborators from the East.
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Instead of fighting insurgents, they went on a murdering spree - in Wola district, about 50.000 Polish civilians were executed in early August, in Ochota - about 10.000. Mokotów - a few thousand. And in many other places all over Warsaw.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochota_massacre

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacyfikacja_Mokotowa

Kaminski volunteers were first given the task of clearing the Ochota district defended by only 300 poorly-armed Poles. Their attack was planned for the morning of August 5, but when the time came, Kaminski's men could not be found. After some searching, they were found looting abandoned houses in the rear. The attack finally got underway shortly before noon and it went poorly, with the brigade advancing only 275 meters before nightfall. The men had neither training for nor prior experience in urban combat. For many it was the first time they had even seen a major city and they fought poorly while suffering high casualties. At the same time, thousands of Polish civilians were killed by the RONA SS men during the events known as the Ochota massacre; many of the victims were also raped. In the middle of the month, the Kaminski was moved south to the Wola sector, but it fared no better in combat there than in Ochota. In one incident, a sub-unit had stopped their advance to loot a captured building on the front line and was consequently cut off and destroyed by the Poles.
By August 27, the German commanders decided the brigade was too undisciplined and unreliable. In almost a month of fighting, the brigade had still not achieved any of its major objectives. The German commander in Warsaw, SS-Obergruppenführer Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, stated in post war trials that the unit "had no military combat value whatsoever, with both officers and soldiers having not even a hint of tactical understanding. "I saw Kaminski's men removing entire cartloads of stolen jewelery, gold watches, and precious stones. The capture of a liquor supply was more important for the brigade than the seizure of a position commanding the same street. Each assault was instantly stopped, because after taking the objective over, units dispersed into loose, plundering hordes." Kaminski himself was involved in the looting in Warsaw, claiming he was collecting for his "Russian Liberation Fund". Major General Günter Rohr, commander of Warsaw's southern sector, demanded that the brigade be removed from his command. Bach-Zelewski agreed, as the troublesome unit was slowing his efforts to suppress the uprising. As soon as replacement units were available, the Kaminski was pulled out of the line after losing about 500 men in combat during the fighting in Warsaw.



Germans shelled and bombed Warsaw with everything they had, especially artillery (rocket launchers)
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and Stuka diving bombers
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New types of weapons were tested: giant mortar Tor whose shell literally wiped houses from the surface,
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or Goliath explosive carrier to blow up barricades and fortified builduings.
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The Soviets stopped their offensive and didn`t intend to cross the river. Reasons - to be discussed. What is worse, initially they refused to host the shuttle flights with supplies for insurgents from Western Allies - the air drops took place too late to change anything.

Despite ferocious defence of Warsaw fighters, who fought for every house and street with incredible sacrifice, often hand to hand,
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the liberated territory was shrinking.
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Thousands of insurgents and civilians died in fighting, in German executions, fires, destroyed houses. They lacked food and water. Also ammo slowly finished. Germans murdered wounded soldiers and medical personnel in military hospitals. Women and girls were raped on a mass scale. Warsaw changed into hell.

In mid September Germans replaced police units with regular front units, including tank divisions, which made short work with insurgents.

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The situation was hopeless, so after 63 days of heroic fight, Warsaw capitulated.


From 120.000 to 200.000 civilians died, about 18.000 insurgents were killed in action or executions. 25% of left-bank Warsaw was destroyed in the Rising, next 35% afterwards. With 10% destruction from 1939 and 10% of Ghetto area razed to the ground, literally, Warsaw practically ceased to exist.

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A long wall with AK soldiers` names
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Lyzko  Aug 1, 11, 17:18    #2
A historic tribute of which ALL Poles, regardless of religion or ethnicity, can be proud! A triumph of spirit indoubitably.
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Edited by: TheOther  Aug 1, 11, 17:25    #3
Lyzko --- A triumph of spirit indoubitably.

At what cost, and for what?

Pawian --- From 120.000 to 200.000 civilians died, about 18.000 insurgents were killed in action or executions. 25% of left-bank Warsaw was destroyed in the Rising, next 35% afterwards. With 10% destruction from 1939 and 10% of Ghetto area razed to the ground, literally, Warsaw practically ceased to exist.

Sikorski was right that the Warsaw Rising was a national catastrophe.
Lyzko  Aug 1, 11, 17:26    #4
Yet despite all of this, the German juggernaut was dealt a major blow plus Stroop was finally executed after the War-:)
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 Aug 1, 11, 17:36    #5
I is hard to decide on which one was it now- when we know the end result, but in 1944 people of Warsaw were expecting the same help Paris later were given.
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Edited by: pawian  Aug 1, 11, 17:39    #6
=TheOther]Sikorski was right that the Warsaw Rising was a national catastrophe.


Minister Sikorski had noted on his Twitter page that the nation “could draw lessons from this national catastrophe”. PiS politicians note, however, in a letter sent to the Foreign Ministry that such an “undermining” of the “heroic” legacy of the insurgents bore similarities with the practices of the communist authorities.
Generally speaking, the decision to launch the Warsaw Rising has always been controversial. While some regarded it as a courageous bid to throw off the Nazi shackles, others believe it was a suicidal operation.
General Wladyslaw Anders, one of the key figures in the Free Polish Army in the West during WW II, was among those that felt the Rising should never have been declared.


I forgot to add: most photos in the first post are from here:

http://pragapn.republika.pl/powstanie/
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 Aug 1, 11, 17:42    #7
Sikorski was right that the Warsaw Rising was a national catastrophe.


No, I disagree. Not a catastrophe. In retrospect it can be termes foolhardy at worst. For me a Triumph of Spirit and like those brave souls, were I faced with such a choice to make now, I like to think i'd have stood shoulder to shoulder with them.

And yet it could have been so very different, but for a fairer wind and the expected assistance of the allies.

As we have come to learn, those brave souls were sold down the river.

With more support, we could have been talking about a victory against all odds and one of the pivotal moments of the war. Instead the things that sticks out most is the horror that ensued.

With hindsight, it is easy for those that weren't there to label it as a catastrophe. We weren't faced with that choice to make.
Lyzko  Aug 1, 11, 17:44    #8
I agree with the last poster! Better in the end to die like rats fighting than to live like slaves.
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 Aug 1, 11, 17:45    #9
Sikorski was right that the Warsaw Rising was a national catastrophe.


He is.

If Poland simply waited for the inevitable German vs Soviet fight to the end - she could have waited and waited until the Soviet overstretched their supply lines in the race for Berlin....and then BANG. A Polish attack on the Soviets would have destroyed their supply lines quickly and easily - leaving Poland in the situation where an already-massively-depleted Red Army would have had to not only fight the Germans in the last desperate phases of the war, but also the Poles.

Can't imagine that the Red Army would have won - it's well documented that they were simply throwing men forward at all costs in order to get to Berlin first.

The Warsaw Uprising should be commemorated with a single, solitary flag flying with the black ribbon in the centre of Warsaw -no more, no less. It was utterly tragic that so many people died in vain - the AK leadership almost certainly has blood on their hands for this. It was simply a dreadful move - brave, courageous, but dreadful.
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 Aug 1, 11, 17:51    #10
The Warsaw Uprising should be commemorated with a single, solitary flag flying with the black ribbon in the centre of Warsaw -no more, no less.

good, that You are not the decider
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Edited by: pawian  Aug 1, 11, 17:53    #11
=Lyzko]Yet despite all of this, the German juggernaut was dealt a major blow

Unfortunately, German losses were not so high (General SS Bach Zalewski estimated German KIA at about 1900), besides, most of them were Eastern collaborators and other lowlives.

=delphiandomine]A Polish attack on the Soviets would have destroyed their supply lines quickly and easily - leaving Poland in the situation where an already-massively-depleted Red Army would have had to not only fight the Germans in the last desperate phases of the war, but also the Poles.

:):):) That is pure science fiction. Don`t forget Soviets had the most powerful army in Europe at that time.

the AK leadership almost certainly has blood on their hands for this.


And yet on August 3rd 1944 when General Stanisław Kopański sent General Anders a telegram to ask that a parachute unit be dispatched to emabattled Warsaw he repiled that he thought the decision of the Commander in Chief of the Underground Army to launch an uprising to be a complete disaster. (source IPMS. KGA 46/IV, telegram dated 03.August.1944)
On 9th of August General Anders sent a coded message to Gen. Sosnkowski, and in sharp terms criticised Warsaw's decision to launch the uprising. (source IPMS. KGA 46/IV; M.Zarzycki—Karta no.42 dated 2004 page 140).
Anders also pointed out in radiogram No. 2081 dated 09/August/1944 "...the troops do not understand the aim of the Uprising in Warsaw... We consider the launching of the uprising to be a serious offence and we ask —who bears responsibilty for this?"

from Sjams` post:
Polish-German alliance.
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 Aug 1, 11, 17:53    #12
good, that You are not the decider


Sorry, but when was the last time that Warsaw ever celebrated the successful Wielkopolska Uprising?

I fail to see why one of the worst military decisions of the 20th century should be celebrated with flags flying and so on.
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Edited by: EdWilczynski  Aug 1, 11, 18:02    #13
A single flag with a black stripe would be an insult to those brave souls who made the ultimate sacrifice.
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 Aug 1, 11, 18:04    #14
Poznan celebrates Wielkopolskie Uprising

I fail to see why one of the worst military decisions of the 20th century should be celebrated with flags flying and so on.

as I said before, in 1944 people didnt know what we know now(again look at the Paris uprising), but I do agree with You that it was a very bad decision. And I dont celebrate this decision, I am paying the respect to the lost city its people this microworld with its unique culture, dialects/slang that was destroyed by the German psychos, I am paying my respect and I remember about them, and I believe thay deserve that
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Edited by: delphiandomine  Aug 1, 11, 18:08    #15
A single flag with a black stripe would be an insult to those brave souls who made the ultimate sacrifice.

Insulting?

Insulting is the way that Warsaw demands respect throughout the country for her failed uprising, while ignoring all the other uprisings and especially ignoring the one that actually succeeded!

Anyway, it would be a far grander gesture to have a single flag flying - less is more when it comes to this sort of thing. Having flags flying throughout the country means nothing when many people simply ignore it - I had to ask several people to find out what the reason was for them flying in Poznan - most people simply didn't know - because they have their own uprising here.

I honestly think that a single flag, combined with the air raid sirens going off would be a grand gesture - and far more poignant than flags everywhere. Funny though - virtually no private people will fly a flag here to commemorate it - only in official places.
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 Aug 1, 11, 18:10    #16
I had to ask several people to find out what the reason was for them flying in Poznan - most people simply didn't know - because they have their own uprising here.

and that says what?that people in Poznan are ignorant?
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 Aug 1, 11, 18:12    #17
and that says what?that people in Poznan are ignorant?


Same could be said for Warsaw's ignoring of the uprising here.
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 Aug 1, 11, 18:18    #18
I remember when uprising took place, and a flag in Warsaw to remember that would be a nice thing to do, however we shouldnt than forget about Śląskie uprisings, Lwów and then Pcim Dolny, not every single event can be commemorated in Warsaw!!This is why these events are remembered in the place they happened
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 Aug 1, 11, 18:20    #19
=Lyzko]A historic tribute of which ALL Poles, regardless of religion or ethnicity, can be proud! A triumph of spirit indoubitably.

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Edited by: TheOther  Aug 1, 11, 18:36    #20
EdWilczynski --- With hindsight, it is easy for those that weren't there to label it as a catastrophe.

That's all we can do nowadays. Would be interesting to see though how survivors and the military saw the uprising immediately after the war (I mean, a propaganda-free view of it, if there was any).
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 Aug 1, 11, 18:40    #21
=delphiandomine]
Insulting is the way that Warsaw demands respect throughout the country for her failed uprising,

Sirens wailed at 17.00 in Krakow. I was finishing the first post in the thread. Sort of my private tribute.

Among hundreds of photos from Warsaw, the dearest are these sites which commemorate the sacrifice of the city during WW2. Most of them refer to massive losses in Warsaw Rising:
Polish martyrology during WW2 - today`s monuments
Polish martyrology during WW2 - today`s monuments
Polish martyrology during WW2 - today`s monuments

=Lyzko]plus Stroop was finally executed after the War-:)

Stroop supressed the Ghetto Rising in 1943. We are talking about Warsaw Rising 44.

But, yes, he paid for his crimes.
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Edited by: Moderator  Aug 1, 11, 18:52    #22
Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?

Both, you actually managed to sum it up pretty well, the former does not preclude the latter.
If Poland simply waited for the inevitable German vs Soviet fight to the end - she could have waited and waited until the Soviet overstretched their supply lines in the race for Berlin....and then BANG. A Polish attack on the Soviets would have destroyed their supply lines quickly and easily - leaving Poland in the situation where an already-massively-depleted Red Army would have had to not only fight the Germans in the last desperate phases of the war, but also the Poles.

not only was the Red Army not depleted its rear lines in Poland were protected by over 600k troops.

edited
Lyzko  Aug 1, 11, 19:56    #23
Defeat etc... aside for the moment, the sheer symbolic importance of the '44 Uprising simply cannot be overstated!
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 Aug 1, 11, 19:57    #24
=Sokrates]Both, the former does not preclude the latter.

Wow, very good thought. I am surprised, really. :):):)

Today Warsovians, both native and newcomers, paid tribute. Everything stopped at 17.00 for a while.

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Lyzko  Aug 1, 11, 20:03    #25
If only to prove that both Jewish and Christian Poles suffered equally at the hands of their common enemy, indeed, nemisis of mankind as a whole! Such commemorations draw together rather than pull apart. The indomitable human spirit survives amid the chaos.

NIECH ŻYJE RZECZPOSPOLITA POLSKA!
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Edited by: pawian  Aug 1, 11, 20:05    #26
Defeat etc... aside for the moment, the sheer symbolic importance of the '44 Uprising simply cannot be overstated!

The ultimate question arises:

If the Rising hadn`t broken out, would Warsaw have been spared 200.000 losses and the destruction of the city with its cultural heritage important not only for Warsaw but whole Poland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_destruction_of_Warsaw

The planned destruction of Warsaw refers to the largely realised plans by Nazi Germany to completely raze the city. The plan was put into full motion after the Warsaw Uprising in 1944. The uprising had infuriated German leaders who now wanted to make an example of the city, which they had long before selected for a major reconstruction as part of their plans to "Germanize" Eastern Europe:
“ The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference[1]

Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.
Adolf Hitler, 1944[2] ”

Considerable resources were diverted to the destruction of the city, which was soon to fall back into Allied hands. Most of the buildings and an immense part of the cultural heritage were demolished or burned to the ground. After the war, extensive work was put into rebuilding the city according to pre-war plans and historical documents.


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[......]

During the German suppression of the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 around 70 to 80% of libraries were carefully burned by the Verbrennungskommandos (Burning Detachments), whose mission and specialty were to burn Warsaw.[12] In October 1944 the Załuski Library, the oldest public library in Poland and one of the oldest and most important libraries in Europe (established in 1747), was burned down.[13] Out of about 400,000 printed items, maps and manuscripts, only some 1,800 manuscripts and 30,000 printed materials survived.[13]

Another important collection of books belonging to the Krasiński Library, created in 1844, was also largely destroyed in 1944.[14] The collection originally consisted of 250,000 items.[14] During the Uprising, on 5 September 1944, the library's warehouses were shelled by German artillery and burned almost completely.[14] Some of the books were preserved, thrown through windows by the library's staff.[14] The surviving collection was later deliberately burned by the Germans in October 1944 after collapse of the Uprising.[14] About 26,000 manuscripts, 2,500 incunables, 80,000 early printed books, 100,000 drawings and printmakings, 50,000 note and theater manuscripts as well as a large collection of maps and atlases were lost.[14]

The collection of the Library of Polish Museum in Rapperswil, transported to Poland in 1927, suffered the same fate.[15] The library and the museum were founded in Rapperswil, Switzerland, in 1870 as "a refuge for [Poland's] historic memorabilia dishonored and plundered in the [occupied Polish] homeland" and for the promotion of Polish interests.[16] The greater part of library's collections, originally 20,000 engravings, 92,000 books and 27,000 manuscripts, were deliberately destroyed by the Germans in 1944.[15]


Lyzko  Aug 1, 11, 20:09    #27
20/20 hindsight, Pawian. Poland was damned if it did and damned if it didn't. A tough judgment call for any government to have made. Had it not stood pat and firm, Hitler would've swallowed 'em up sure as he's born! It refused to submit and so reaped the excesses of the destruction visisted upon its innocent citizens-:) In the truest sense, a no-win situation!
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 Aug 1, 11, 20:12    #28
The ultimate question arises:

If the Rising hadn`t broken out, would Warsaw have been spared 200.000 losses and the destruction of the city with its cultural heritage important not only for Warsaw but whole Poland?

There is no way to prove the truth about claims made in counterfactual statements and so this "ultimate question" is unanswerable.
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 Aug 1, 11, 20:31    #29
=Des Essientes]There is no way to prove the truth about claims made in counterfactual statements and so this "ultimate question" is unanswerable.

Quite right.

Don`t you think AK commanders made a too hasty decision, seeing a few Soviet tanks reaching the borders of Warsaw, they thought the Soviets are going to storm, while it was only reconaissance.
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 Aug 1, 11, 20:40    #30
Don`t you think AK commanders made a too hasty decision, seeing a few Soviet tanks reaching the borders of Warsaw, they thought the Soviets are going to storm, while it was only reconaissance.


I just don't understand it - wouldn't it be obvious that the Soviets would have no interest in helping Poland, especially after 1939?


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