Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jul 28, 10, 22:08 #91

Paulina:

No, Poland was defending itself. It's not "going to war".

Of course you did!
You didn't really expect a strong Germany to just accept the theft of Danzig, didn't you?
What about the right of self-determination for the Danzigers? They for sure didn't wanted to become Poles.
But that was exactly the choice Poland gave them..become Poles or leave!

The polish government knew that Germany would act, to bad they truly believed that London and Paris would save their balls.

Paulina:

There was no war between Third Reich and Poland before 1939.

Poland didn't even exist till the Treaty of Versailles shuffled borders in 1919 and gave you your country. The third Reich existed from 1933 onwards...not really much time!

Paulina:

So why on Earth Poland would do that at that time?

To save their country and millions of people??? Just a guess...

Paulina:

Did you?

I'm the only one having the patience to answer some of your really inane...erm..uninformed questions.

Paulina:

And so it is so easy for you to say what they were supposed to do?

As I said, EVERYTHING would had been better...doesn't matter what!

Paulina:

Besides, Polish troops had orders not to fight against the Red Army. There was no declaration of war.

Well, there wasn't no declaration from the Germans either...didn't stop the polish army from fighting!

Paulina:

You can learn some from discussions too :)

You are bringing neither new arguments nor facts to the discussion.
Your whole argumentation reminds me about elementary school history...only superficial facts clad in some white washing and done with it.
But serious history is a different beast and rarely only black and white...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 28, 10, 22:08 #92
And how were they supposed to keep it together exactly? There are divisions and it's part of life.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jul 28, 10, 22:10 #93
Seanus: And how were they supposed to keep it together exactly? How did other countries manage that?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 28, 10, 22:15 #94
Did all other countries manage that?

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Jul 28, 10, 22:26 #95

Bratwurst Boy:

Of course you did!
You didn't really expect a strong Germany to just accept the theft of Danzig, didn't you?
What about the right of self-determination for the Danzigers? They for sure didn't wanted to become Poles.
But that was exactly the choice Poland gave them..become Poles or leave!

Wait a minute... You wrote it wasn't really about Danzig.

Bratwurst Boy:

Poland didn't even exist till the Treaty of Versailles shuffled borders and gave you your country.

Poland existed since 1918 till 1939 and in those 20 years of independence there was no war with Third Reich and Poland and Third Reich were not enemies.

Bratwurst Boy:

To save their country and millions of people??? Just a guess...

And how would they know that? Poland was at some time at war with bolshevik Russia and didn't lose independence. How could they know that consequences would be so dreadful?

Bratwurst Boy:

I'm the only one having the patience to answer some of your really inane...erm..uninformed questions.

OK, but did you read those books you mentioned?

Bratwurst Boy:

Well, there wasn't no declaration from the Germans either...didn't stop the polish army from fighting!

But they didn't fight against the Red Army as far as it was possible. So I guess they picked a side to some point.

Bratwurst Boy:

You are bringing neither new arguments nor facts to the discussion.
Your whole argumentation reminds me about elementary school history...only superficial facts clad in some white washing and done with it.

I don't know much, that's true. But you don't have to discuss anything with me, I'm not forcing you ;)

Bratwurst Boy:

History is a different beast and rarely only black and white..

The Nazis were pretty black to me...

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jul 28, 10, 22:39 #96

Paulina:

The Nazis were pretty black to me...

Oh they were...but they didn't jump out of nothing one bright summer day.
Hitler came to power on the back on some serious and justified grievances the german people had.
That he in the end gave a flying **** about them was another late and hard learned lesson.

As I said, Hitler would had given up all claims for Danzig when Poland would had agreed to other (for him more important) points.

That is also why I say he made up his enemies and allies as he did go along...a neutral or allied Poland would had gotten a super duper treatment instead of the sub-human speeches.
He had no problems to use muslims or asians if they could be of any help...even the Hiwis (russian voluntary helpers of the Wehrmacht) were seen as cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_(volunteer)
Not to mention the also slavic russian resistance who fighted with the Wehrmacht against the Red Army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army

Slav or no Slav was really not THAT much a problem in the end!

Paulina:

You wrote it wasn't really about Danzig.

No it wasn't...but Danzig made a really fine excuse.
What do you think about the Danzig case? Imagine it would be the other way around?

Paulina:

Poland existed since 1918 till 1939 and in those 20 years of independence there was no war with Third Reich and Poland and Third Reich were not enemies.

Nope...Hitler tried till shortly before the invasion to get Poland on his good side...

Paulina:

How could they know that consequences would be so dreadful?

They didn't think that far...believing London and Paris would send immediately their armies...

Paulina:

But you don't have to discuss anything with me, I'm not forcing you ;)

Then stop asking me things! ;)

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jul 29, 10, 00:41 #97

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Jul 29, 10, 01:39 #98

Bratwurst Boy:

Poland did behave as greedy and agressive the moment it could as most other countries did.

The person who is losing the argument always attempts to justify his/her point by projecting some sort of 'equivalency' - that situations, plights, complications, conjectures, etc. are either all 'relative' or the same. They are not!

Bratwurst Boy:

I think Poland should had negotiated with Germany and made concessions.

When one starts negotiations with automatic concessions, (then) they are not really negotiations.

Bratwurst Boy:

You never had to walk in their boots a minute......

It must have been tiring goose-stepping like that.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jul 29, 10, 01:52 #99

ZIMMY:

The person who is losing the argument always attempts to justify his/her point by projecting some sort of 'equivalency' - that situations, plights, complications, conjectures, etc. are either all 'relative' or the same. They are not!

When the other tries to paint themself as some lily white, innocent, goody-two-shoes it just needs some reminder...

ZIMMY:

When one starts negotiations with automatic concessions, (then) they are not really negotiations.

Read the links....Hitler was astounishing flexible...he would had gone quite far if there
had been negotiations in the first place.

ZIMMY:

It must have been tiring goose-stepping like that.

I've read it was hell on the heels...

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Sep 5, 10, 23:13 #100

isthatu2:

Considering the little boy was talking about the bombing of Dresden etc I rather think my point stands.
So,please tell me how a 3 year old german girl asked to be firebombed by the RAF/PAF/USAAF

This 3 year old was the responsibility of the German adults - whom asked for it. Simple.

Bratwurst Boy:

Otherwise Polish bragging and deliberately p*issing of their mighty neighbours and even demanding more german lands as the Treaty of Versailles already granted you can't be explained. YOU ASKED FOR AN ARSE KICK!

...like a scratched record...you getting booooring now.

Gdansk was created by a Slavic Monk. The first Polish King made Gdansk Polish before the
Hanseatic League took over, then the Prussians, then finally the Germans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Sep 5, 10, 23:27 #101
Ogorki: Hanseatic League took over The Hanseatic Leage WAS german, so had been the Prussians! rolls eyes It seems you don't have enough lessons from the record yet!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 6, 10, 00:12 #102
http://vimeo.com/8350695, video of David Jakubowski, Polish Army captain in Warsaw and Holocaust survivor. This man is a great source of info.

LAGirlThreads: 13 Posts: 598 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♀	Sep 13, 10, 21:35 #103
I been to the uprising museum in Warsaw very touching.

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Edited by: nott Sep 13, 10, 22:00 #104

Bratwurst Boy:

Nope...Hitler tried till shortly before the invasion to get Poland on his good side...

There was a 10 year non-aggression pact of 1934, with Germany recognizing its Eastern borders.

German policy changed drastically in late 1938, after the annexation of Sudetenland sealed the fate of Czechoslovakia and Poland became Hitler's next target. This a Wiki interpretation, so you might not agree. However, 1934 + 10 seems a bit later later than 1938, innit? Hitler broke the pact with provocative demands.

BB, Poland is not responsible for the WW2. Western Poland of 1920 was nothing more that Poland had before the partitions, and even slightly less. Poznan was never a German city. It's not like everything becomes German forever, wherever a German foot trod once. Stop being ridiculous, please.

I understand you want to grow some balls after three generations of kowtow. But please.

meluzynaThreads: - Posts: 1 Joined: Mar 24, 11 ♀	Mar 24, 11, 23:57 #105
PennBoy: The guy second from left in the white shirt and beret is my great grandfather Mikolaj Hi there! I am his granddaughter, so I guess that makes us family. Now I am just very, very, very curious how exactly we are connected... I cannot write PMs, though. Could you contact me by sending one?

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Edited by: Moderator Mar 25, 11, 01:06 #106

Bratwurst Boy:

The Hanseatic Leage WAS german, so had been the Prussians! *rolls eyes*

It seems you don't have enough lessons from the record yet!

YYAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNNNN!!!! Sorry just read your reply.

I did not say they were not Germans - merely three stages in "German people's" history

The Hanseatic Leage first took Polish lands around 1400 ish - Germany did not exist then.
Then Prussia Took some more Polish lands around 1600 ish - Germany did not exist then.

Then GERMANY was born around 1870 ish - and the GERMANS took more Polish Lands.

Do I have to spell EVERYTHING out?

(PS - Lubeck was originally a Slavic settlement)

Harry:

Some Poles were worse than the Nazis. Some were the polar opposite. The vast majority were somewhere in the middle. Not that an immigrant like you will ever admit that any Pole was ever anything like as bad as the Nazis

Harry - how do you know this? Anything but first hand knowledge does not justify your claims. So - justify your claims - or shut the fack up. Theres a good boy.

isthatu2:

er,no "he" didnt....if the ghetto area was flattened what are all those buildings doing standing by the time of the 44 uprising?Ya know,the supposedly flattened buildings that the AK fought over and through to release the inmates .....

- the warsaw ghetto WAS flattened after the Jewish uprising. The second uprising was the main one which took part in the rest of warsaw which was STILL STANDING.

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Mar 25, 11, 10:22 #107

Bratwurst Boy:

I think Poland would had fared much better with much less losses of life and complete
destruction if they had allied with one of it's juggernaut neighbours...not aggravating both of them and trusting totally naive far away empty words from London and Paris.

Bratwurst Boy:

As the historic research shows Hitler WANTED to negotiate and was ready to move in turn for Polish agreements.
That means also that Hitler had NOT the complete destruction of Poland on his mind from the beginning! FACT!

Problem is,...... they don,t teach such facts in school history lessons. As BB says, one must research these facts, and what better way is there than the internet.
Actually another way is to obtain knowledge at first hand, for example talking to those who lived in those times. Personally I have blood connections on all sides of the borders ( what a mixture ), that actually experienced both wars.
So take it from me, it,s hard to accept the truth when you have been brought up in a brainwashed society, but what BB is saying, is not without substance. I concur with the above quotes and I,m not German.

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Mar 25, 11, 11:00 #108

THE HITMAN:

Problem is,...... they don,t teach such facts in school history lessons. As BB says, one must research these facts, and what better way is there than the internet.

Alas, when you live in a country where people scream UNPATRIOTISM at the slightest criticism of Poland, it's very hard to actually teach facts in school as opposed to what the collective consciousness demands.

The fact that the Polish school programme seems more or less designed to deliberately avoid teaching about the PRL and the early 1990's says it all.

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