WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE?

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Feb 18, 10, 12:21 #211

No, it doesn't change the fact that a certain class was targetted and done away with. What you must understand is that there must be an actus reus, coupled with the mens rea to constitute genocide. Yes, in all likelihood they wanted to destroy the Polish nation but the natural defence to that is war crimes determine that. Katyń was outside of the war at that time and thus merits special treatment. I take your point about the prevailing political climate but it doesn't change the fact that the actus reus was only carried out on a specific class. Seriously, please read up on mass murder and refute the contention that Katyń was exactly that. See if you can come up with sth good.

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Feb 20, 10, 23:33 #212

Seanus:

And how is that relevant to the thread, Joe?

It was a mass murder: You want to call it a 'war crime', OK, it was...You want to call it genocide because it involved one specific ethnic group, OK, too...But why split hairs over a point like this?...Why you 'strain at a gnat' when the truth is now well known?...Do we have budding lawyers here who are practicing 'argument and discourse'?...Or maybe you are preparing a case that will go to 'Hague Tribunal' and just getting legal terms straight!

Perhaps I will not use Biblical analogies because you are all 'above that'.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 20, 10, 23:35 #213
Read earlier, Joe. That's exactly my conclusion too.

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Edited by: HWPiel Feb 22, 10, 02:03 #214

joepilsudski:

It was a mass murder: You want to call it a 'war crime', OK, it was...You want to call it genocide because it involved one specific ethnic group, OK, too...But why split hairs over a point like this?...Why you 'strain at a gnat' when the truth is now well known?...Do we have budding lawyers here who are practicing 'argument and discourse'?...Or maybe you are preparing a case that will go to 'Hague Tribunal' and just getting legal terms straight!

I agree... when compared to the purges committed by Stalin against his own people, or the NAZIs against the Jews. Sheer numbers, yes Katyń is very small and inconsequential, by sheer nuymbers only - certainly not the injustice or outcome of the act.

Again, some good comments on this thread. However, I am curious... and this question is directed to the Russians/ex-Soviets here.... do you acknowledge the purges committed by the Cheka, NKVD, and KGB under Lenin, Stalin and Kruschev (spelling)? Those ~32 million people who were murdered for the good of the CCCP's political gains, was it genocide or just an inconvenience for the Soviet government?

H

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Feb 22, 10, 05:25 #215

convex:

If so, you might want to check your sources. It seems that the site you linked to lifted the wikipedia article and added sentences like that.

Actually, this IS from wikipedia. I read this passage numerous times (referring to the 3rd conference). Now the article does not have the passage. Wonder why.

Hitler had ordered his troops to: "Kill without mercy every man, woman, and child of Polish extraction." So, unless Adolph had the notion the notion that the Polish Army was full of women and children, he had to be referring to the deliberate genocide of Polish civilians.

Soviets were co-operating with Germans before the war broke out. Would you suggest the Soviets dii their best to stop Hitler from the genocide of Poles and jeopardize the cozy relation they thought they had with the Nazis?

Any totalitarian government attempting to get a nation under its control will always start with the leaders of that nation - the intelligentsia and the military.

If you're interested in the subject start here.

PibwlThreads: - Posts: 69 Joined: Feb 18, 10 ♂	Feb 22, 10, 11:33 #216
z_darius: Actually, this IS from wikipedia. I read this passage numerous times (referring to the 3rd conference). Now the article does not have the passage. Wonder why. Probably because it was not supported by sources.

HWPielThreads: 1 Posts: 83 Joined: Oct 10, 08 ♂	Feb 25, 10, 01:20 #217
R J Rummel, who about 15 years ago coined the term "democide," which is kind of the political scientist's catch-all for anything death related. Under his definition, the Soviets committed democide against the Poles. Since a few of you folks cite Wikipedia as a source... look it up there. Henry.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 25, 10, 11:13 #218
I linked that before, Henry. Maybe back in page 4 or 5 of the thread. He also cites politicide and other things.

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Mar 8, 10, 02:46 #219

Seanus:

What you must understand is that there must be an actus reus, coupled with the mens rea to constitute genocide.

Why must I understand this in this scenario? Whose act and whose guilty mind? I'm no criminal law expert, but I wasn't aware that common law notions of guilt finding applied to what I thought were code law jurisdictions. How do these apply to a nation cf an individual? Do you mean Stalin per se? What about similar fact evidence?

Seanus:

Seriously, please read up on mass murder and refute the contention that Katyń was exactly that. See if you can come up with sth good.

I haven't said Katyn wasn't mass murder. What I said was that in my view it was the precursor to what was to come, regardless of class, had the Nazis and Soviets remained allies. I thought my proposition was fairly clear and I honestly can't explain it in any clearer terms.

joepilsudski:

Perhaps I will not use Biblical analogies because you are all 'above that'.

There's no need to profess indignation friend. If you can't understand what's being argued, then ask for clarification and we'd be more than happy to oblige.

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Mar 8, 10, 03:20 #220

z_darius:

Actually, this IS from wikipedia. I read this passage numerous times (referring to the 3rd conference). Now the article does not have the passage. Wonder why.

Could you give us a source for that passage? I couldn't find it anywhere. The neat thing is you can look through the revisions... Didn't manage to find any source to that whatsoever.

z_darius:

r had ordered his troops to: "Kill without mercy every man, woman, and child of Polish extraction." So, unless Adolph had the notion the notion that the Polish Army was full of women and children, he had to be referring to the deliberate genocide of Polish civilians.

Comeon man, you've got to have something better than a quote that came from an American reporter. Something that wasn't included in the evidence at Nuremberg because it couldn't be backed up by anything.

Generalplan Ost called for Poles to be deported to Siberia. I believe the crazy little Austrian wrote about it while he was in jail as well.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 03:52 #221
Weren't they executed because they were Polish intellectuals or was it because they were intellectuals living in Poland? :)

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Edited by: convex Mar 8, 10, 03:59 #222
Mr Grunwald: Weren't they executed because they were Polish intellectuals or was it because they were intellectuals living in Poland? :) Considering that they did the exact same thing when they came to power 20 years earlier, I would say they just weren't too fond of a certain class of people...Especially people that would form the core of any resistance to the new bosses. G'night

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 04:08 #223
Mr Grunwald: Weren't they executed because they were Polish intellectuals or was it because they were intellectuals living in Poland? : Were intellectuals from other countries executed in the same way? Therein lies your answer.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 04:19 #224
ZIMMY: Were intellectuals from other countries executed in the same way? Therein lies your answer. Still i consider it a genocide, it forever changed Poland!!! The Poland that was before that died...

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 04:30 #225
convex: Comeon man, you've got to have something better than a quote that came from an American reporter. Something that wasn't included in the evidence at Nuremberg because it couldn't be backed up by anything. one source here, and here, and here, and here. Do you need more?

Ozi DanThreads: 22 Posts: 552 Joined: Nov 22, 07 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 04:47 #226
z_darius: one source here, and here, and here, and here. G'day mate - thanks for the links - interesting reading. The last sentence of the 3rd paragrah at p.16 of your second link seems to vindicate your position. I think some people here aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: joepilsudski Mar 13, 10, 21:03 #227
For a good 'body count' of Communism in general, here is a good read: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3398379/Black-Book-of-Communism Germans Unearth Katyn Grave

futsal25Threads: - Posts: 1 Joined: Oct 7, 10 ♂	Oct 7, 10, 10:38 #228
Hi der, I am an Indian national. I want to know why Katyn massacre happened?? What is the motive behind murdering Poles by soviets?? & i pray for all those poles army personnel & civilians died in katyn & ww2, may der soul rest in peace. Thnxs Sourabh

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