Was the Polish/ Lithuanian commonwealth a European power?

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂	Mar 28, 10, 19:32 #61
nomaderol: More reliable sources (alternative sources to the western sources and russian sources however) Oxymoron.

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Edited by: Mr Grunwald Mar 28, 10, 20:20 #62

Filios1: No, but instead he slanders the name of all the Polish pilots who died over the North Sea during the Battle of Britain, saving that precious Island of his.

Again he isn't British

Seanus: As George Bush famously once said, "all of our history is in the past" :)

Naród, który nie szanuje swej przeszłości nie zasługuje na szacunek teraźniejszości i nie ma prawa do przyszłości.
By Marshal Józef Piłsudski

A Nation, which doesn't respect her past doesn't earn her present nor is allowed her future

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 28, 10, 20:22 #63
Pretty decent translation, Mr Grunwald. I won't be pedantic and correct it as I understood what you wanted to say. I agree with it. However, some breaks from the past are needed in a substantially altered new order of things.

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Edited by: Mr Grunwald Mar 28, 10, 22:04 #64

Seanus: Pretty decent translation, Mr Grunwald.

Oh thank you :)

Seanus: I won't be pedantic and correct it as I understood what you wanted to say.

Why not? :o
I love corrections if there are any :)
(how could I improve without corrections! ;()

Seanus: I agree with it.

Oh wonderful :)

Seanus: However, some breaks from the past are needed in a substantially altered new order of things.

I got problems deciphering that sentence :/
Did you mean that only some few "moments" from history is needed for the general public to know? (learn in School etc) Then I agree

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Edited by: Seanus Mar 28, 10, 22:08 #65

doesn't deserve her present (though earn is a neat idea in a way) and is not entitled to her future (though allow expresses it quite well) or has no right to her future.

Anyway, back to the thread.

No, I meant that the order of the world has changed somewhat markedly and that sometimes you have to realign yourself in that scheme of things and not overly dwell on the past. When you sign to new commitments, you should honour them.

PolishNobility

Jan 30, 12, 18:04 #66

Of course it was a European power.

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was the biggest European country next after Russia for 200 years in terms of territory.

It was one of the most wealthy and culturally developed states in Europe when it existed.

The Polish nationa have a lot to be proud of especially their impressive history.

I would ignore the Ukranian peasants who are envious of Polish culture and still have a complex towards Poles because Ukrainians were enslaved and looked down upon by the Polish nobility when they ruled half of Ukraine for centuries.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 30, 12, 18:36 #67
PolishNobility: Of course it was a European power. And a power famed for kicking arses and taking names. And for beating off every army which attempted to invade Poland. Right?

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Jan 30, 12, 21:19 #68

PolishNobility:

It was one of the most wealthy and culturally developed states in Europe when it existed.

And of course it is not true as anyone with the faintest knowledge about the Dutch East India Company and Dutch West India Company knows.

But it seems that our friend doesn't mind adapting the truth a bit so he can further his misguided attempts to glorify his country, which unfortunately only has the opposite effect.

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Jan 30, 12, 21:23 #69

Harry:

And a power famed for kicking arses and taking names. And for beating off every army which attempted to invade Poland. Right?

Pretty well true. Deeply unstable, little built heritage compared to other states of comparable size and collapsed into disarray.

PolishNobility:

I would ignore the Ukranian peasants who are envious of Polish culture and still have a complex towards Poles because Ukrainians were enslaved and looked down upon by the Polish nobility when they ruled half of Ukraine for centuries.

Something of a loaded, trollish, comment.

Stu:

But it seems that our friend doesn't mind adapting the truth a bit so he can further his misguided attempts to glorify his country, which unfortunately only has the opposite effect.

Kind of like propaganda which nobody believes

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Jan 30, 12, 21:24 #70

Stu:

And of course it is not true as anyone with the faintest knowledge about the Dutch East India Company and Dutch West India Company knows.

Why would knowledge of these companies have any bearing on the truth of PolishNobility's statement?

Stu:

But it seems that our friend doesn't mind adapting the truth a bit so he can further his misguided attempts to glorify his country, which unfortunately only has the opposite effect.

PolishNobility's truths are indeed glorious and not misguided. It is your non-sequitor that is misguided, Stup.

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Jan 30, 12, 21:33 #71

Des Essientes:

Stup.

Ahh ... so now you start your cussing and cursing against me as well, ehh? Classy, DE, classy. It just shows what you really are.

Des Essientes:

Why would knowledge of these companies have any bearing on the truth of PolishNobility's statement?

Read about it, DE ... expand your knowledge. It has never hurt anyone. When you did, please come back to me and I'll be glad to discuss it with you. The fact that you wrote your "invaluable contribution" 5 minutes after I wrote mine only leads me to believe that you didn't even try to look it up.

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Jan 30, 12, 21:38 #72

Stu:

Ahh ... so now you start your cussing and cursing against me as well, ehh? Classy, DE, classy. It just shows what you really are.

Normal.

Des Essientes:

Why would knowledge of these companies have any bearing on

Read:

PolishNobility:

the biggest European country

PolishNobility:

one of the most wealthy and culturally developed states in Europe

Stu:

Read about it, DE ... expand your knowledge. It has never hurt anyone

Indeed. The History of the Pol-Lith Commonwealth is fascinating, and at times it was a European power. But to overstate its importance just makes people cynical about the constant Moania-esque lansowanie when they dig a little deeper.Especially when they learn about its slow and self-destructive degeneracy and decline.

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Jan 30, 12, 21:43 #73

Stu:

The fact that you wrote your "invaluable contribution" 5 minutes after I wrote mine only leads me to believe that you didn't even try to look it up.

It doesn't matter if Britain and Holland were rich because of the companies you mentioned that still doesn't disprove what PolishNobility stated regarding the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth:

PolishNobility:

It was one of the most wealthy and culturally developed states in Europe when it existed.

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Jan 30, 12, 21:48 #74

PolishNobility:

I would ignore the Ukranian peasants who are envious of Polish culture and still have a complex towards Poles because Ukrainians were enslaved and looked down upon by the Polish nobility when they ruled half of Ukraine for centuries.

Would that be like how Poles are jealous of Germans and Russians because they were enslaved and looked down upon for years, too?

Des Essientes:

PolishNobility's truths are indeed glorious and not misguided. It is your non-sequitor that is misguided, Stup.

When did you last visit Poland?

JonnyM:

Pretty well true. Deeply unstable, little built heritage compared to other states of comparable size and collapsed into disarray.

A great country in some respects, tinpot in others. Very Polish, if you will.

Des Essientes:

It doesn't matter if Britain and Holland were rich because of the companies you mentioned that still doesn't disprove what PolishNobility stated regarding the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth:

What disproves it is the fact that you support it.

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Edited by: Stu Jan 30, 12, 22:00 #75

Because of these companies, I'm afraid the Netherlands at that time was one of, if not even the richest country in Europe.

I will quote from Wikipedia (quick, before some zealous guy here changes it):

The economy of the (Polish Lithuanian) Commonwealth was dominated by feudal agriculture based on the plantation system (serfs) - here

and

here you can read everything about the Dutch economy during the same time. Here is Germany. And here (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/615557/United-Kingdom/44830 /England-in-the-15th-century, scroll down to Henry VII - Economy and society) you can read about the English economy during that period.

Now DE ... don't tell me you can't see the difference.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 30, 12, 22:02 #76
Stu: Now DE ... don't tell me you can't see the difference. How dare you, you're using facts! Poland-Lithuania might have been wonderfully liberal, but it was remarkably tinpot in many ways. It might have been powerful at one point, but after the Jagellonians left - the rot started. And the 18th century was a pretty crap time for the country.

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Jan 30, 12, 22:03 #77

Stu:

Now DE ... don't tell me you can't see the difference.

Stu, read what PolishNobility wrote:

PolishNobility:

It was one of the most wealthy and culturally developed states in Europe when it existed.

Notice it says "one of". Nothing you have posted makes what he has written untrue.

delphiandomine:

What disproves it is the fact that you support it.

Incredibly illogical, even from you Delphiandomine.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 30, 12, 22:05 #78
Des Essientes: Notice it says "one of". Nothing you have posted makes what he has written untrue. You know, just the fact that Poland-Lithuania was a feudal state based on agriculture while the other countries were off making tons of cash. Nothing much at all.

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Jan 30, 12, 22:09 #79

delphiandomine:

Poland-Lithuania was a feudal state based on agriculture

The PLC was more republican than feudal and it did indeed have alot of agriculture which made it very rich because it sold much of this agricultural output to Western Europe. PolishNobility's statement stands regarding the PLC:

PolishNobility:

It was one of the most wealthy and culturally developed states in Europe when it existed.

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Jan 30, 12, 22:11 #80

Des Essientes:

The PLC was more republican than feudal

Why do you keep repeating this when no-one with any interest in Polish history would agree with you?

I know you've never been to Poland, but if you had - you'd find plenty of streets and osiedles named after kings during the era of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. If it was so 'republican' - they wouldn't be honoured. In fact - most Poles are pretty attached to their kings, given that they need to learn all about them in school. You'll never hear a real Pole say anything bad about those kings.

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Jan 30, 12, 22:13 #81

Des Essientes:

Notice it says "one of". Nothing you have posted makes what he has written untrue.

So you are telling me you can't see the difference between the economy of Poland and the other countries? You know what? Let me search a little longer and will come up with similar stories about the economies of other European countries. And you will see this wonderful Polish economy of yours slowly dropping down the list.

Some more quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth#Ec onomy:

The economic strength of Commonwealth grain trade waned from the late 17th century on.
The Commonwealth's major attempts at countering this problem and improving productivity consisted of increasing serfs' workload and further restricting their freedoms in a process known as second serfdom
The Commonwealth's preoccupation with agriculture, coupled with the szlachta's privileged position when compared to the bourgeoisie, resulted in a fairly slow process of urbanization and thus a rather slow development of industries.
From Gdańsk, ships, mostly from the Netherlands and Flanders, carried the grain to ports such as Antwerp and Amsterdam.[63][64] Besides grain, other seaborne exports included carminic acid from Polish cochineal, lumber and wood-related products such as ash, and tar.[58] The land routes, mostly to the German lands of the Holy Roman Empire such as the cities of Leipzig and Nuremberg, were used for export of live cattle (herds of around 50,000 head) hides, furs, salt, tobacco, hemp, cotton (mostly from Greater Poland) and linen
Somewhere between the 16th and 17th centuries, the Commonwealth's trade balance shifted from positive to negative.

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Jan 30, 12, 22:15 #82

Des Essientes:

The PLC was more republican than feudal

That's actually the very last thing it was. Its economic resources depended entirely on serfdom, slavery by another name, and the centres of political power were always dominated by the same few families.

The quote by 'Polishnobility' (a misnomer if ever their was one) most certainly does not stand. Can you perhaps cite anything to suggest it was as "culturally developed" as other states of comparable forensic GDP?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 30, 12, 22:15 #83
Stu: Somewhere between the 16th and 17th centuries, the Commonwealth's trade balance shifted from positive to negative. Entirely in line with common knowledge - it was a power, and declined rather badly as time went on. What makes me laugh is that the same people spouting about how great the Commonwealth was are the same people who stand for everything that the Commonwealth didn't.

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Edited by: gumishu Jan 30, 12, 22:23 #84

JonnyM:

Indeed. The History of the Pol-Lith Commonwealth is fascinating, and at times it was a European power. But to overstate its importance just makes people cynical about the constant Moania-esque lansowanie when they dig a little deeper.Especially when they learn about its slow and self-destructive degeneracy and decline.

actually it was one guy's personal ambitions that drove Poland into decline (ok it coupled with the ambitions of the magnates and their greed for land) - I mean Zygmunt III Waza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund_III_Vasa) - he started wars with Sweden and meddled in Russian affairs (including bloody raids by early Lisowczycy) which eventually led to the Deluge

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Jan 30, 12, 22:25 #85

gumishu:

and meddled in Russian affairs

Never a good idea really - it's interesting to see how many countries have met their match at the hands of Russia throughout the years .

Historically, the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth is one of my favourite countries - it has such an interesting, complicated history that anyone serious about history can't fail to love it. And without a doubt - at one point - it was a major power. It must have been saddening to watch the country decline throughout the 18th century.

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Edited by: Stu Jan 30, 12, 22:32 #86

I remember walking through Zwinger Museum in Dresden in the beginning of January and reading about this Augustus The Strong, who collected all these treasures. I thought he was a pretty nice guy, but now I read that politically he wasn't such a success. But man ... the things he collected ... FANTASTIC.

And it never hurts to learn new things ... while writing these posts I came across this guy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krzysztof_Arciszewski (Polish - http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krzysztof_Arciszewski). Interesting. In fact this guy worled for the West India Company.

Gruffi_GummiThreads: 1 Posts: 167 Joined: Jul 2, 11 ♂	Feb 2, 12, 19:40 #87
jasinski: or just central European power? From the 16th century on, being a seafaring nation was increasingly becoming the primary determinant of a "European power". The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth wasn't one. Perhaps it was if you consider the earlier period.

kondziorThreads: 2 Posts: 441 Joined: Oct 16, 09 ♂	Feb 2, 12, 20:37 #88
Commonwealth has been quite a powerfull entity. However, our ancestors were never interested on meddling in other's nations affairs, the way today's "powers" do. (Russians may diagree, but it was just a group of private citizens, not a Commonwealth as such). Commonwealth was mostly focused inwards.

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