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Watch Poland grow and shrink (interactive map)


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Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Dec 31, 10, 15:53    #1
Before your very eyes you can watch Poland grow, shrink, disappear and re-emerge:

http://polmap.republika.pl/polska1.htm
Ashleys mindThreads: 7
Posts: 1,346
Joined: Nov 2, 10 ♀ 		 Dec 31, 10, 16:20    #2
That interactive map requires a lot of detailed study. It's hard to know which city faired the best.

I wonder how it will change in the future? Probably just from within but who knows?
purpleladyThreads: 3
Posts: 39
Joined: Oct 18, 08 ♀ 		 Dec 31, 10, 16:24    #3
P3, thank you for sharing this link--it helps to make Poland's complicated history a bit clearer. I believe it will be a great reference for our informal presentations about Polish history. Dziękuję.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,442
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Dec 31, 10, 16:27    #4
Nice map Polonius3 is there a more detailed map or video of what border changes occurred between Poland and the Ukraine and Slovakia in 2004 ?
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Dec 31, 10, 18:56    #5
Not to my knowledge. Someone sent me this map and I simply passed it on. It's the first time I've ever seen such such a map permuting before one's very eyes.
jablkoThreads: -
Posts: 156
Joined: Jul 13, 10 ♂ 		 Dec 31, 10, 19:34    #6
heres related video
purpleladyThreads: 3
Posts: 39
Joined: Oct 18, 08 ♀ 		 Dec 31, 10, 20:28    #7
Cool video, jabłko. Thanks for sharing. It's pretty amazing to see the borders change throughout history.
sobieskiThreads: 82
Posts: 1,143
Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 1, 11, 15:09    #8
This happened to every country in Europe. Only we do not moan about it.
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,024
Joined: Apr 10, 09  Pictures: 1  Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		Edited by: Torq  Jan 1, 11, 19:47    #9
sobieski:
This happened to every country in Europe. Only we do not moan about it.


Oh, really? Name one country in Europe the size of Poland (or even comparable to Poland)
that was partitioned by its neighbours and lost its independence for over 100 years.
Name one country that lost over 30% of its population in World War 2, not to mention
the loss of of 3 out of 4 most important cities (Lwów and Wilno occupied by Soviets
and Warsaw razed to the ground by Germans.)
Name one European country that lost three quarters of its territory - from 1,153,465 sq. km
in 1618 to a mere 312,000 sq. km. today (which is only slightly bigger than Italy.)
Actually the territory we lost is bigger than that of France and Italy put together.

Well, maybe Hungary's losses in territory after the Treaty of Trianon are comparable
to Poland's losses since the XVII century, but they didn't suffer such a terrible loss
of population as Poland did.

So - name ONE country that suffered it all, like Poland did.

No... wait a minute... you said that - I quote...

sobieski:
This happened to every country in Europe.


...every country? EVERY feckin country???

Wow! You are either a complete and utter retard or... or... well, I don't know if there
is any 'or' here, but maybe I'm wrong? Maybe you can explain to us how what happened
to Poland had also happened to EVERY country in Europe?
We would like to hear how the population of Denmark, Italy, Portugal or Belgium was
considered 'untermenschen' to be enslaved or slaughtered - since it all happened to EVERY
country in Europe.

*Yes, I know it's only Internet, but the stupidity I encounter in it never ceases to amaze me...*
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 1, 11, 21:28    #10
Torq:
Oh, really? Name one country in Europe the size of Poland (or even comparable to Poland)
that was partitioned by its neighbours and lost its independence for over 100 years.


Do 60 years count too?

Torq:
Name one country that lost over 30% of its population in World War 2, not to mention
the loss of of 3 out of 4 most important cities


1/4th of our country lost

But yes, border changed in Europe nearly everywhere during the course of the history...mass losses of population happened too (30 years war, hundred years war etc.)
Not so much at the fringe but surely in the central mainland. And Belgium is in artifical construction for example, made from changed borders of France and Holland (only one example).
Denmark lost and gained (Schleswig Holstein), Italy (Tyrol from Austria) and so on.

And yes Hungary was an especial worse case...they did get no compensation till now compared to Poland.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		 Jan 1, 11, 21:35    #11
The size of the state doesn't matter! Look at Alaska, for instance. The biggest state yet it has very little representation. Hardly anyone lives there. What is important is what goes on within the borders, not the actual size ;)
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: AdamKadmon  Jan 1, 11, 21:46    #12
Polonius3:
Before your very eyes you can watch Poland grow, shrink, disappear and re-emerge:


Poland has marvelous history, but you do disservice to it. What is most interesting about Poland is its diversity, and you have not shown what a patchwork of peoples, lands, religions and traditions Poland and the Commonwealth of Both Nations was. You have reduced Poland's history to what the worst enemy would not do, to some kind of imperial dark project or other shiit, but this is far removed for the real history. Do not compare Poland to the British Empire, let the British bear the mark and stigma of its imperialism and won't allow to dirty Poland’s history by it. The British are pulling their chestnuts out of the imperial fire, do not help them by showing Poland as an empire.
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,024
Joined: Apr 10, 09  Pictures: 1  Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		Edited by: Torq  Jan 1, 11, 23:34    #13
Bratwurst Boy:
Do 60 years count too?


Well, it's not 123 years, but I guess it counts too. Were the citizens of the country
you're thinking of forced to abandon their language (as it was with forceful germanization
and russification in Poland)?

Bratwurst Boy:
1/4th of our country lost


Better than 3/4ths (as compared to Poland in 1618) and even after WW2, we lost the area
the size of Czech Republic compared to 1939 and lost 3 out of 4 most important cities.
The population loss of 12 million (35 million in 1939 and 23 million in 1945) is also the hugest
loss in Europe.

Bratwurst Boy:

But yes, border changed in Europe nearly everywhere during the course of the history


Sure it did. But if Polish people "moan about it", as one person in this thread put it, it is
not because of the border shifts, but because of everything that was connected with
it in case of Poland, and which was much worse than anything that happened in Denmark
or Italy (the examples you gave.)

Bratwurst Boy:

And yes Hungary was an especial worse case...they did get no compensation till now compared to Poland.


That's because they fought on the wrong side. Had they fought on the Soviet side,
they would most likely have been given some territory after the war (probably a part
of Transylvania from pro-Nazi Romania and southern part of another Hitler's ally - Slovakia.)

But still - gaining nothing in terms of territory, Hungary managed to avoid the terrible
population losses, that Poland suffered only because we refused Hitler's repeated proposals
of anti-Soviet alliance.

So, all in all, when we consider ALL the above mentioned factors, then it is obvious
that Poland has suffered the most of all European nations, and it is very true to compare
Poland to the Christ of Nations. Saying that it is the same with EVERY European country
is like saying that EVERY European nation had its holocaust and that the slaughter of Jews
in WW2 was nothing special.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 2, 11, 00:03    #14
Torq:
Were the citizens of the country
you're thinking of forced to abandon their language (as it was with forceful germanization
and russification in Poland)?


Well...my grandparents were the last to speak schlesisch...it has died out now.

I think that what Poles are going through...the "moaning" is a natural and quite healthy process.
After all western people tend to forget that alot of stuff is only NOW, after the fall of the iron curtain and after the Soviet system broke down, freely discussed, newly evaluated, talked about.
The West had 50 years of that already and for them it's "old news". There reconciliation is also already a thing of the past where it is still a raw thing in the eastern countries.
Hence alot of unduly impatience and rolling eyes...that is not fair either.

But that is a process that has to be gone through and it will end in time too.

PS: Germany too started to discuss things more freely only after the wall fell..

Torq:
So, all in all, when we consider ALL the above mentioned factors, then it is obvious
that Poland has suffered the most of all European nations


Depends...you can't hold a candle to the german suffering during the 30 years war.
Also the Russians lost more people during the last century...I think...
PaulinaThreads: 2
Posts: 561
Joined: Jan 31, 08 ♀ 		 Jan 2, 11, 00:25    #15
Nice post, BB...
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,442
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jan 2, 11, 00:37    #16
Bratwurst Boy:
my grandparents were the last to speak schlesisch

I thought your family's from Berlin
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 2, 11, 00:48    #17
PennBoy:
I thought your family's from Berlin


Vertriebene...
14 Million had to resettle during and after the war.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,442
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jan 2, 11, 01:12    #18
Bratwurst Boy:
Vertriebene

Like these people?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 2, 11, 01:25    #19
Rofl

Couldn't help yourself, couldn't you...
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,442
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jan 2, 11, 01:27    #20
Bratwurst Boy:
Couldn't help yourself, couldn't you...

You know i have to verity things using youtube
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 2, 11, 01:29    #21
Always on the defense...will take abit more time....
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 2, 11, 01:29    #22
Bratwurst Boy:
Depends...you can't hold a candle to the german suffering during the 30 years war.
Also the Russians lost more people during the last century...I think...

Depends.

Russia in its mass was never a country that was civilised, interwar Poland was a country with flourishing culture, civilisation on par with any other european country and in many cases far more developed and then it was forced into communism.

Dont put DDR as an example, german communism was softcore in comparison to what was happening in Poland, we're moaning now because only now we're given a voice and we lost a LOT.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 2, 11, 01:39    #23
Sokrates:
we're moaning now because only now we're given a voice and we lost a LOT.


I know that! ;)

But I wouldn't call the GDR "soft core"...but that's only me...
guesswhoThreads: 23
Posts: 3,326
Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀ 		 Jan 2, 11, 01:40    #24
PennBoy:
Like these people?


Yes, very sad story.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,442
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: PennBoy  Jan 2, 11, 01:42    #25
Bratwurst Boy:
Always on the defense...will take abit more time....

I wasn't defending myself since i didn't feel i was attacked, i just posted the video since i found one about Vertriebene that's all
Sokrates:
Russia in its mass was never a country that was civilised, interwar Poland was a country with flourishing culture, civilisation on par with any other european country and in many cases far more developed and then it was forced into communism.

In the cities yes in the countryside people were very poor eating potatoes everyday, my mothers family comes from a village called Czarna Dabrowka Schwarz Damerkow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czarna_D%C4%85br%C3%B3wka they had nice houses after the war that Germans left, in eastern Poland most people had clay for floor in their homes in the countryside.
Sokrates:
Dont put DDR as an example, german communism was softcore in comparison to what was happening in Poland

I dunno Honecker was a communist down to the core.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 2, 11, 01:50    #26
Bratwurst Boy:
But I wouldn't call the GDR "soft core"...but that's only me...

Lack of comparison.
PennBoy:
In the cities yes in the countryside people were very poor eating potatoes everyday, my mothers family comes from a village called Czarna Dabrowka Schwarz Damerkow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czarna_D%C4%85br%C3%B3wka they had nice houses after the war that Germans left, in eastern Poland most people had clay for flood in their homes in the countryside.

That i'm sorry is another communist myth.
PennBoy:
I dunno Honecker was a communist down to the core.

There's communists and communists.
Ashleys mindThreads: 7
Posts: 1,346
Joined: Nov 2, 10 ♀ 		 Jan 2, 11, 11:58    #27
Ok, so can we just establish exactly what size and which borders Poland should have now?
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 2, 11, 15:15    #28
Good borders for Poland at present would be the 1600s border in the east and the 1945 one in the west. Even more ideal would be Poland's western frontier moved up to the Polish River Łaba (Elbe).
AussieSheilaThreads: 6
Posts: 113
Joined: Aug 14, 10 ♀ 		 Jan 2, 11, 15:18    #29
very interesting. Now you need to make english version so rest of the world can share your passion, and understand your history better.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 2, 11, 15:32    #30
Polonius3:
Good borders for Poland at present would be the 1600s border in the east and the 1945 one in the west. Even more ideal would be Poland's western frontier moved up to the Polish River Łaba (Elbe).


Why would you need such a big country? You are a people of...what...35 millions?

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