Are you happy with the current polish borders?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 15, 10, 00:50 #91
Iron your musings belong to political fiction rather than reality.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Nov 15, 10, 00:57 #92
Sokrates: Iron your musings belong to political fiction rather than reality. Whats reality ? Your off-butted last post ? No thank you!

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,954 Joined: Aug 6, 09 ♂	Nov 15, 10, 05:13 #93
we need friendly stable Ukraine more than we need Lwów yes we do we need partner in economical issues and maybe later military ones we do not need hatred between our nations

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 15, 10, 09:01 #94
Ironside: Whats reality ? Your off-butted last post ? No thank you! Reality is that Poland needs a stable Ukraine as a buffer and that most Poles including me do not share your views.

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Edited by: Ironside Nov 16, 10, 02:46 #95

Sokrates:

Reality is that Poland needs a stable Ukraine

what if there wont be a stable Ukraine ? You conception will crumple ! readiness and variants of plans for every eventuality !

Sokrates:

most Poles including me do not share your views.

I don't care what most Poles thinks !It has nothing to do with the issue discussed! Do you think that in the present circumstances my election platform would be - Lwów should belong to Poland !?
Definitely not! phew!

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Havok Nov 16, 10, 06:24 #96

according to some obsolete website Poland has a slight chance to mow through some of the eastern territories.

I guess it's matter of alliances and deals made behind the scenes. I say, go for it! Post all updates on PF.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/

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dayaThreads: - Posts: 2 Joined: Nov 16, 10 ♀	Nov 16, 10, 06:55 #97
its decent

HavokThreads: 14 Posts: 1,508 Joined: Mar 12, 10 MEMBER ♂	Nov 16, 10, 06:56 #98
I don't disagree.

♂ [Suspended]

Nov 16, 10, 19:21 #99

Ironside:

what if there wont be a stable Ukraine ?

Then we need to make sure we dont get drawn into the mess that the region becomes afterwards.

Ironside:

ou conception will crumple ! readiness and variants of plans for every eventuality !

No it wont, if Ukraine indeed collapses the best thing to do is to close the border and pretend nothing happened, the last thing we want is to enter a region thats a potential hot spot.

Ironside:

I don't care what most Poles thinks !

Thats because as far as Lwów is concerned you're a raving lunatic who's completely detached from reality.

Havok:

according to some obsolete website Poland has a slight chance to mow through some of the eastern territories.

I guess it's matter of alliances and deals made behind the scenes. I say, go for it! Post all updates on PF.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/

Globalfirepower is worth zip, their statistics are based on number of people available.

Mexico for example would be overrun by Poland in a week not having any real heavy ground forces, mexican airforce has literally 10 old fighter planes.

Ukrainian army is practically falling apart as well.

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Nov 16, 10, 21:24 #100

Sokrates:

raving lunatic who's completely detached from reality.

one man dream is another man reality :)

Sokrates:

No it wont, if Ukraine indeed collapses the best thing to do is to close the border and pretend nothing happened, the last thing we want is to enter a region thats a potential hot spot.

Its against unwritten rules of politics, you cannot detach yourself from your neighbor,you need to be in touch, if need be, intervene. Otherwise somebody else will put in, his/her mittens and next you know new reality is kicking you ass......its elementary dear Sokrates, elementary :)

Poland stopped to be a power to reckon with at the moment when surrendered territories outside her borders to the whims of her neighbors, next they knew those neighbors started meddling into internal affairs of Poland - you know the finale, don't you ?
Well, don't mind me, I'm only a raving lunatic, completely detached from reality!

♂ [Suspended]

Nov 16, 10, 22:07 #101

Ironside:

one man dream is another man reality :)

Folk sayings wont change the hard facts, vast majority of Poles is indifferent or mildly friendly towards Ukraine, no one would agree to enact a policy of destabilising Ukraine or attempting to take land from it and no kind of media spin outside of ukis mass murdering Poles again could change that.

While personally i consider ukrainians a nation of barbaric peasant descendants without an ounce of culture or civilisation they're unlikely to genocide polish minority any time soon.

Ironside:

Poland stopped to be a power to reckon with at the moment when surrendered territories outside her borders to the whims of her neighbors,

Poland stopped to be a power to reckon with in late 17th century when its ravaged society and economy finally gave in under the stiffness of her upper class, it never regained a status of power afterwards and while the interbellum was a good shot it was too short to take advantage of so you're wrong at every turn here.

Ironside:

Well, don't mind me, I'm only a raving lunatic, completely detached from reality!

Not only that but you're interpreting history in a very very loose manner.

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Edited by: Ironside Nov 17, 10, 02:07 #102

Sokrates:

Folk sayings wont change the hard facts,

You have a very simplified view of politics, policy and all circumstances about it.
At the present point in time, your assessment is correct, but I'm not talking about now, my vision has perquisite requirement - real polish elite in charge.
Process of getting back our land, I see as a gradual process, not necessary conquest or armed clash.
You see, I don't believe that Ukraine will be a good and worthy neighbor and an ally, for number of reasons, I don't think that without polish help Ukraine become member of EU or even NATO, I think Russia will have a heavy influence on the future of the country, unknown factor in the game as yet is China.
Whatever happens, Poland should be present at the seen, flexible and ready to act accordingly in the right set of circumstances!
Example of Lithuania teach us a lesson - one sided goodness , is not good enough for having good relation with our eastern neighbors, Those fascists aren't respecting their own obligation regarding polish minority and should be given a lesson!
(In the part of a present Ukrainian state, which I have in mind, we have chauvinistic 3-4 millions population in reality detached culturally and mentally from the rest of Ukrainians.)

Sokrates:

While personally i consider ukrainians a nation of barbaric peasant descendants without an ounce of culture or civilisation they're unlikely to genocide polish minority any time soon.

Ukrainians are not an monolithic society, most of them are influenced by the Russian culture, which is attractive for them, in the future there is possibility of union of the two!
So, to keep Russian on the safe distance we need our territory back, otherwise they will take us for suckers,ready to be devoured and rightly so!

Sokrates:

Poland stopped to be a power to reckon with in late 17th century

That not a thread for such discussion, the reason for Poland demise were complex, but foremost reason if I would be forced to name one - would be a very bad choice of the king, meaning Vasa !

Sokrates:

Not only that but you're interpreting history in a very very loose manner.

My opinions are based on solid knowledge. I'm talking not only about facts but also about understanding what historical process is!My conclusion are my own, and they are debatable maybe, but sound and solid, and as far as I'm concerned correct in their diagnosis.

Czarnkow1940Threads: 11 Posts: 167 Joined: Mar 5, 10 ♂	Dec 8, 10, 08:50 #103
wildeckireneget: What is your opinion? We start a revolution and reclaim kresy

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Dec 8, 10, 09:41 #104
I am not happy.I would like Poland to share a border with Greece and be all the time open so we can share our resources.

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Dec 8, 10, 09:43 #105
southern: I would like Poland to share a border with Greece and be all the time open so we can share our resources And what resources does Greece have that Poland might want?

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Dec 8, 10, 09:49 #106
Ouzo.

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Dec 8, 10, 09:58 #107
southern: Ouzo. I rest my case ... :-S

stallionThreads: 4 Posts: 28 Joined: Nov 25, 10 ♂	Dec 8, 10, 10:05 #108
I think the Polish borders are fine. We need to develop (and protect) what we have. On the other hand, Kaliningrad needs to break away from Russia and eventually join the EU. The small population of Kaliningrad would make it easy to join. I feel the Kaliningradian people would be much better off this way and Poland would not have a unpredictable neighbor immediately to its north.

krakusThreads: - Posts: 3 Joined: Oct 12, 10 ♂	Dec 8, 10, 15:28 #109
Stallion Kaliningradian people? They're plain russians and i sincerly doubt that anyone will allow them to split form Moscow.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Dec 8, 10, 15:33 #110
krakus: Kaliningradian people? They're plain russians and i sincerly doubt that anyone will allow them to split form Moscow. Better question, why would they want to?

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Dec 8, 10, 16:08 #111

convex:

Better question, why would they want to?

Exactly. A few years ago, when Russia was an economic mess, there were calls for some sort of free economic zone (the Hong Kong of Russia maybe?) but now Russia is becoming more affluent, the calls have stopped.

In any case - most inhabitants are no more than second generation (the original residents either fled or were kicked out) and due to its position on the Baltic there's a preponderance of military and naval families - Russian through and through.

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