10,000 ISRAELIS READY TO CLAIM FOR POLISH CITIZENSHIP AND POLISH LAND!

[quote=kaliszer] (Unlike Christianity and Islam, we don't believe that non-Jews are required to keep the rules of our religion, only the 7 laws of the children of Noah.) [/quote]

The Noachide Laws?...there are no such laws in the Bible I read!...but according to Chabbad Lubavitch, aren't idolaters to be beheaded under 'Noachide'?...as a Christian, who recognizes Jesus Christ as God, would I qualify as an idolater?

What we call the noachide laws are the commands given by God to Noah after the flood. They are as follows:

Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not worship idols.
Do not be sexually immoral.
Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
Do not curse God.
Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Since we believe all mankind is decended from Noah, we believe that these laws are binding to all mankind and are the basis of civil society. But we don't care one way or the other what religions non-Jews take for themselves. In answer to your question, which I hope wasn't facetious: Most Jewish legal authorities do not consider Christianity to be idolatry, and certainly don't consider Islam to be idolatry. We don't believe in these religions and Jews are forbidden to practice them, but we don't mind if non-Jews practice them. The penalties for idol worship referred to the foreign cults that threatened the Jewish religion in ancient Israel such as Ba'al worship. From the time of the Romans the Jewish courts had no juristicion over things like that and I know of no case where anyone was put to death for worshiping idols after biblical times, certainly no christian, since we were no longer soveriegn when the christian religion came into being.

So instead of bringing up a theoretical situation (of you being executed for idolatry) I would rather point out that untold numbers of Jews were put to death by christians for not being christian, from the middle ages onward till the 20th century.

“Thou shalt not kill” applies as much to Christians as it does to Jews.
It is true that untold numbers of Jews were killed by Christians and that this was usually done in the name of Christianity, as was the killing of one sort of Christian by another sort of Christian, this being done in the name of more genuine and holier Christianity. But surely all rape, plunder and extending of territorial boundaries looks so much better to the rapist and plunderer if covered by a patina of “Divine Mission”, and the Jews themselves were not exactly immune to that sort of “veiling”, albeit in different times.

Rape and plunder are more an issue of battlefield ethics (or lack of ethics).
My point was more about execution of civilians for religious "crimes" not in time of war.
I was trying to reassure Joepilsudski who seemed concerned about his personal safety.

For example?

I don't know what to say apart from "hehehe". I'm sure/I hope he's not really serious. :)

A few examples off hand:
the spanish inquisition, the crusades (Jews were massacred by local crusaders in the rhineland well before they came anywhere near the muslim enemy), the massacre at Cliffords Tower in York in 1190, various Easter day pogroms such as Kishinev in 1903. That kind of thing.

Does Divinely mandated rape and plunder become more acceptable "on the battlefield" and is it exclusively to do with battlefields?


Well that is what I mean. The Spanish Inquisition, Crusades etc. all had political, territorial and plundering motives behind them – Christianity was used to give them a patina of respectability.

First Christians were persecuted and killed by Jews, Palestinians now are persecuted and killed by Jews. Once Jews are the stronger side they aren't any better but usually they were a weaker side (minority living in foreign countries) and that's the reason why more often the were victims than attackers, so don't think that you have any "moral superiority" or else don't be surprised that people don't like you.

Grzegorz,
I think you're facts are wrong.
1. First of all the early Christians were persecuted by the Romans throughout the empire, not by the Jews. By the time the Christians became a separate religion, the Jews were not in a position to persecute anyone. It was long after the temple was destroyed and after the Bar Kochba rebellion was crushed.
2. There is a low grade war going on for 100 years between Jews and Arabs over this country. The palestinians in the "territories" are fighting a war against us using rockets and bombs and guns. We are defending ourselves against that, and so people sometimes get killed. The palestinian minority that lives within Israel is not persecuted or killed. They vote, have equal political rights and practice their religion freely. You can see them on any israeli street, shopping, dining, going to school just like anyone else.

Considering the war we have going on with their brothers and the hostility of the Arab world around us, I think we're doing a pretty good job respecting their civili rights. We're not perfect, but we're better than many other countries. I don't know if that makes us "morally superior" and I don't care. If anyone wants to dislike us, they'll find reasons. They always have.

No, Grzegorz is actually right. St. Paul who converted to Christianity from the Jewish faith was very active in the persecution of Christians prior to "seeing the light". It's in his letters.

If you mean the earliest christians, then you are right. But at that point they were considered a heretical Jewish sect, not a separate religion. Paul was weeding out Jewish heretics. Most religions had little tolerance for heresy within their ranks. Christians, for example. Look at Jan Huss. Look at the Inquisition.

If Grzegorz's point is that Jews are no better than anyone else, then I am comforted by the fact that the example he brings is 2000 years old.

I am reminded by what I learned from my family. In eastern Poand prior to WW2 all people worked as one. Reguardless of your race or religion. Respect was earned on a per person basis. You would break bread with your neighbor and work for the good of the community.

It was outside intervention that in 1939-45 feed hatred into the people. Greed for power pitted one toward the other. Survival of barbaric rule made people animalistic and killers. When people feel threatened and pushed to far they will seek a way to survive. All this takes place while the real powers that started it quietly sit back and watch.

That sounds a bit too rosy. But there's no question that outside intervention was always distructive to Polish jewish relations. Czarist Russia used anti-semitism as a populist tool to manipulate Poles, Jews and Ukrainians (divide and rule). The Germans played the Poles and Ukrainians against eachother and against the jews so that everybody was fighting for his life at each other's expense.

Even in this forum there's more bickering between Poles and Jews (am I the only one here?) than there is blame put on the Germans. Maybe because it's so obvious.

When all are equal there is no bickering. When my father was orphaned in So. Africa it was a Jewish family that took him in and took care of him for a bit. They did not ask who his god was, they saw a child in need.

Prior to WW2 my grandfathers farm was also where many Ukraines lived. He taught a group of boys and men how to read and write. They all ate of the same gardens and while ownership was my grandfathers, he also worked the fields. With equality comes respect, reguardless of who we thank at the end of the day.

Carol

I agree on every point.
Where was your grandfather from?

No you're not. :)
I think part of the problem is that the Poles feel the Jews have blamed them more than they have blamed the Germans, whilst never acknowledging that Polish Christians etc (that is to say Poles of non-Jewish faith) also suffered during the war.

There also seems to be blame laid at the Polish door by the Jews for the not "idyllic" relations for the past 200 years or so, regardless of the fact that Poland was partitioned, ruled by others, and all relationships were consequently distorted, and that these difficulties and tensions continued after Poland's complicated "re-birth" in 1918 etc. and during her short life. These events, surely, could not have gone unnoticed!

But here comes another problem: assimilation. It’s good that the Jews in Poland preserved their religion and traditions, but to maintain enclaves where the Polish language etc. was completely unknown is taking the matter a bit too far, and tastes of refusal and scorn, unfortunately. True, it is probable that these were not the educated Jews, but perhaps the Jewish intelligentsia should have stepped in here and smoothed the way to more acceptance of all things Polish by the Jews in general, without, of course, forcing anyone to renounce either faith or customs.

My Grandfather was born in Rzym, Polska. His land that I speak of was presented to him for his bravery, from Poland and was Lewkowce, Poland. Today we would find this land in Ukraine. When I looked at the Elise Island papers my family were listed as, "stateless" meaning they did not have any country.



This is also true for Russia/Ukrainian/Jewish in eastern Poland that still do not take responsability. Why do we always forget the roles played by everyone? Polish have taken responsability over and over, yet no one seems concerned with the bigger picture? I just don't understand.

Carol

kaliszer wrote:

So instead of bringing up a theoretical situation (of you being executed for idolatry) I would rather point out that untold numbers of Jews were put to death by christians for not being christian, from the middle ages onward till the 20th century.

Christians accept Biblical teachings, not teachings of the Talmud Bavli...on the Noachide laws:
http://www.fisheaters.com/jc2.html

You may disagree with some of the emphasis in this article, but it gives a good explanation of the Chabbad Lubavitch interpretation of the 'Noachide' laws...
As far as Christians killing Jews in 'untold numbers', we have more relaible estimates of the numbers of Orthodox Russian, Ukranian Christians lilled by Jewsih Bolsheviks in the 20th Century: 5-10 million.

We are defending ourselves against that, and so people sometimes get killed

This is the same thing Hitler said about Jewish Bolshevism, in reference to your quote about Israeli attiutes toward the Palestinians.

My mother was also "stateless" on her British travel papers. Her family moved from Ukraine (then Russia) to Palestine (then British) and they were listed as "stateless". And they really were stateless, till 1948.

My family were "stateless" due to Poland no longer being a country. From birth of my Grandfather up until this point he always had his country. In 1989 he was so excited, his country was back. He then accepted his medals from a "free Poland". Although Communist never gave up trying to get him to take them.



Where did they become citizens? I take it Britian,but don't want to assume.

They became citizens of Israel. Jewish immigrants to palestine were given travel documents by the british mandate authorities, but they weren't citizens of anything, because palestine wasn't a country, but a League of Nations Mandate since WW One when the Ottoman empire was broken up. Some of the countries that Jews came from maintained their citizenship, but not Soviet Russia where my mother's family came from. Once Israel declared independence, the Jews and Arabs living within Israel's borders became citizens of Israel.

My family still have citizenship, due to not giving up citizenship. With the USA and Poland dual is possiable.

In the US your mother would be considered a Russian vs being Jewish. We can safely move from one part of the US to the other and believe in our God of choice. Right now with our hopefuls trying to get on the ticket for president Obama, a muslim turned christian is neck in neck with Hilliary Clinton. Only in America.

Well, now she would be considered Israeli, not jewish (because the US doesn't have that category) or Russian (because she was not a russian citizen since about 1922). She is no longer alive, but when she was she had no real curiosity about Odessa where she was born. Actually, I found out after she died that her grandparents were from Podolia in Ukraine, a town called Jarmolinice. That's near Proskurov, which was changed to "Chmielnicki" in honor of the butcher who slaughtered Jews and Poles in 1648-49. One country's enemy is another country's hero. Go figure.

This is so true. When we see the wars over the past it is like they say, "History repeats itself". Maybe this is a lesson on not having proper closure.

It depends how you define "closure".
Closure can be peaceful airing of grievances, like in South Africa.
Closure can mean revenge, like in Rwanda.

One of the funniest example of Jewish Polonophobia I have ever seen was some Jewish guy showing Chmielnicki's "pogroms" as one of the proves of "zoological Polish antisemitism".

For Ukrainians he is a hero and that's not surprising. Poles occupied their land and Jews were seen as a tool of Poles.

oh yes G and his love to Ukrainians ... Chmielnicki was native Pole ... and Ukrainian hero so it isnt' so easy case Ukrainians against Poles ... and Jews yes Ukrainian peasants have seen them sa tool of nobel Poles (the same as Polish) and had taken opportunity to kill them.

Any part of my post is wrong ?

it wasn't occupation ... Kozaks wanted just biger salaries ... and Ukrainian peasants were easy to use they just promised them more freedom (sic!) Polish peasants were the same naive and sometimes were supporting people who promised them something. As to me we should forget about bad past in case of Ukriana because two sides have done something wrong and Ukrainians are our alies so maybe we should rather discusse more positive events in our past.

And Gerries just want to give arrogant Poles culture, civilization and "European values"... sorry, they are giving us "European values" now...



Better your love to homos, Negros and Muslims... ?