Jewish love towards Poles

the USAAF did bomb Auschwitz,well the stammlager anyway.but really,How far do you think most bombing raids could get without suffering serious casulties? Why should more allied lives have been thrown away on something that would only have been a symbolic gesture.WW2 wasnt about saving Jews no matter what todays kids are taught in schools. WW2 was about crushing nazi germany,something that would never have happened if allied efforts had been directed aginst a single rail line and one of dozens of death camps. A lovely idea in hindsight,if not thought through but,think about it,with a clear head and naff all would have been achieved.
BTW,please dont take a moral high ground just because you can trot out that Poland saved the most jews etc,that is simple maths,with the vast majority of europes jews being in Poland of course a larger proportion are going to be "saved" one way or another.

There was only one way to save Jews.Germans proposed through swedish embassy in late 1943-early 1944 that they would stop all the concentration camps and transfer Jews to Sweden if western allies agreed to stop war against Germany under conditions.The proposal was rejected and the extermination of Jews completed.

At the same time the allies were bombing German industrial installations which were located deeper inside the occupied territories than Auschwitz. Those bombings, and associated casualties on the allies' side were justified by the fact that diminishing Germany's industrial potential the casualties of war would be reduced too.


Not a symbolic gesture at all. About 1 million people were killed in Auschwitz since the time allies decided not to bomb it. I'm not sure how you can call the possibility of saving 1 million of lives a symbolic gesture. I can't help but remind you of a statement attributed to Stalin: "one death is a tragedy, a milion deaths is statistics". It's a pitty that Stalins approach resonates in your post.



See, you're not reading with understanding. It's not a hindsight. This is exactly what Polish underground and Polish Jews wanted in 1940's. Bush's comment is only one more confirmation that what they thought would have been appropriate then is still considered appropriate.


You're doing it again. This thread is not about my moral ground or yours. We're discussing history. If you can't hold your horses and always need somone to focus on personally, why don't you give yourself a wank. Then come back, all relaxed and we can chat about history - not about me, or you.

Deal?

Deal.
But seriously,I know the bombing may have prevented the Hungarian jews from their fate,and also the Roma etc,but,surly the nazis would have just found another "solotion"?After all,they didnt need such sofisticated methods to wipe out the "soviet" jews ,Im thinking Grannies gorge et al.
But,sorry,bombing raids deeper than Auschwitz,not really,on a grand scale,exept maybe say the romanian oil feilds.Just look at the percentage of RAF bombers brought down in the op tempest resupply missions.

I think in this respect I have a feeling that Hungarian Jews could have been helped prior to them being deported to Auschwitz. Have you read "Eichman in Jerusalem"?. The author was called a "sef-hating Jew" for that book. It is based on facts.

I agree that bombings would have not prevented all the killings, but it would certainly seroisuly disrupt them. Maybe a million Jews would have been save, maybe only 100,000. However calous it may sound, there is after all a sort of life and death economy. Someone one sacrifices a few to save many.

Who knows, perhaps Jews would be then more in a position to join the Polish underground. But that's just speculaton.

As for the RAF casualties, well... war is war, so of course there would be killed pilots. Brits participated in the fighting to liberate some on the continent (more than one actually), but also those from the other continents sacrificed their lives for the Brits.

Where do you mean?B-29s from France could not even reach Warsaw in September 1944 without having to land in russian occupied teritorry.

The Allies were reguraly bombing some oil refineries not far Auschwitz in the summer and fall of 1944. On Dec. 26 1944 McGovern's squadron dropped 50 tons of bombs on oil facilities in Monowitz, an industrial section of Auschwitz.

On Dec 26 allied troops had already reached Belgium.Moreover oil facilities were a far more crucial military target,it had to do with german ability to move tanks in Ardennes.
Maybe planes could hit Auschwitz coming from Italy after the collapse of Gustav line.

The decision not to bomb Auschwitz seems to have little to do with what was more crucial or not. General George Patton even diverted U.S. troops to rescue 150 Lippizaner horses in Austria.

But don't take my word for any of the above. Read an article based on someone who was actually there. He was a US Senator in 1960's/1970's and he was a pilot flying over the area: URL. Read the whole article.

Yes,there were many deals being brokered around this,unfortunatly I dont think the allies would ever have been prepered to trade war equipment for a few thousand lucky(specificaly also rich/conected or "special" such as artists musicians etc) refugees. I havent read the book,but Im guessing we may have studied the same topics if not the exact same sources(ie,the lottery of just who the "head" jewsish fellas thought worthy of saving?)

Agreed, its just unfortunate that the cheifs of the allied airforces wernt quite the humanitarians you and I are. Harris knew what he wanted and was determined to get it without diversion.

The 55thousand dead RAF bomber command crewmen can testify to that.

not to get drawn in/diverted,but,from "other continents" Im assuming you mean say Canada,Australia New Zealand? Yes,many many thousands of brave young lads did volunteer for the RAF or RAAF RCAF etc ,but,the situation at the time was that those countries felt far greater ties to Britain than they may do now so this was seen as fighting for the "mother country" as odd as that seems in this day and age.

B17 actually,B29s were only serving in the Far East during the war.

Yes,and killed a few British army POW/slave workers at the Bune werk(just mention that because surprisingly few people realise that there were many British POWS at auschwitz.)

I think in this respect I have a feeling that Hungarian Jews could have been helped prior to them being deported to Auschwitz. Have you read "Eichman in Jerusalem"?. The author was called a "sef-hating Jew" for that book. It is based on facts.

A Pact Against Hungary's Jews (link?)

FYI: Eichmann was Jewish.

"and then you had to go and spoil it all by saying something foolish like....

The rest of the post,surprisingly I cant argue with. Why do you feel the need to embelish even the truth with silly,absurd statements like that? It just lumps you in with David Irvine and other loonies who are so easily proved fantasists.

I have to add here the black humor of Goering when he was informed that a hungarian Jew would testify against him in Nureneberg trial.
Goering told the judges:''Hungarian Jew?How is it possible?I thought we had exterminated all of them.''

LETS GET BACK TO THE TOPIC. Southern, I agree with you, and so did Henry Ford and Benjamin Franklin amongst others.....

They have been kicked out throughout history and hated by the people of the countries they sucked dry...

This is why they were expelled from most European Kingdoms before the middle ages. Shelley S ask yourself why ?

Below is a URL containing list from Jewish persecution source:
P.E. Grosser & E.G. Halperin, Anti-Semitism: Causes and Effects,
New York: Philosophical Library, 1978

simpletoremember.com/vitals/HistoryJewishPersecution.htm

ASK YOURSELF WHY POLAND AND....PLEASE WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the middle of the night in Poland.


Blah blah flipping blah. In mediaeval Europe, they were set up in the position where they could deal with money in ways that the Christian majority were forbidden from doing, so it was obvious who would be there to take the blame when something went wrong.

The knowledge that your people have had to leave everything behind and move on so many times must be enough to keep you on your toes and know that in life you have to get off your arse, get educated and make something of your life.

I was incommunicado on Shabat, so I'm answering some older posts:


Jews saw Poland not as a means to an end, but as a means of survival, because it seemed to offer a more comfortable existence than Germany, Bohemia or Spain. That's the historian's answer, but the average Jew didn't think in those terms. For him Poland was simply the place he was born in because some unknown ancestor moved there from Germany (for example) to join a cousin who moved there before. That's the way migration works.


No nation is required to accept newcomers unconditionally. I understand why Poles would have been irritated by a large community of foreigners who maintain their own separateness. But a nation, and individuals are required to deal with that issue in a non-violent manner as long as the newcomers are non-violent. The Jews, it should be emphasized, never were a physical threat to any Polish town or city where they lived. There were no bands of Jewish rioters killing and burning Polish towns. So I can't fault a Pole back in those days for resenting Jews and trying to exclude them. I would definitely fault a Pole or anyone else for participating in a pogrom.

I think that over the centuries, even though Jews remained separate, they became an integral part of the make up of Poland, some of them being there for as long as the "ethnic Poles" were. So the resentment of the newcomer became less legitimate as time went on. Once the Jews had been a part of the country for hundreds of years, they could not be called "newcomers" or "foreigners" any more. At a certain point the ethnic Poles would have to accept that Polish Jews had the same right as the Christians to live their lives as they saw fit -- even if it meant that they spoke a different language and dressed differently.

Did the Jews have an obligation to try to fit in? To some extent, yes. They had to adapt to the local ways of doing things in social matters, business affairs and politics. And in these respects they did adapt. But an ethnic minority is not obligated to disappear.


The organized tours are now very aware of that problem and are trying to shift the emphasis to the centuries of Jewish life in Poland and not only on the destruction. Most of them now visit the Nozik synagogue in Warsaw, and some go to the museum at Oświęcim. I was there. There is also a Jewish culture festival in Krakow that is drawing more visitors each year. But it's hard to get around the fact that the few physical remnants of that vanished world are mostly in the cemeteries.


That of course is a good thing -- to be able to be accepted without having to convert. What I meant is: Is it a good thing for Jews to assimilate to the extent that they disappear as Jews?

I hear what your saying,and a trickey one to answer with the "full range" of jewishness on display in the UK ( i speak obviously for the country I am most familiar with) from people who are maybe only "ethnicaly" jewish to ultra orthodox and everything inbetween this matter of "disapearing" is down to personal choice,there is nothing to be gained from dropping your Jewishness as may be the case in some countries .

"Is it a good thing for Jews to assimilate to the extent that they disappear as Jews? "
Well in Sascha Baron Cohen's case,as Borat a whole heap of cash and a funny TV series :)

You obviously haven't read the link....it is SHOCKING!! I will repeat it again for your benefit:

simpletoremember.com/vitals/HistoryJewishPersecution.htm

This list predates medieval europe but only goes back to 250BC. Interestingly is does not go back as far as 500-600BC which is when Jews were exiled to Babylon. Obviuosly this event was was ommited from this list because it is compiled by Jews to win the 'anti-semetic' sympathy vote.

In which case I have to ask the question was the expulsion of the Jews to Babylonia an 'anti-semetic' act?

Their expulsion from Egypt in 1200 BC was a true antisemetic act.

isthatu wrote:

The rest of the post,surprisingly I cant argue with. Why do you feel the need to embelish even the truth with silly,absurd statements like that? It just lumps you in with David Irvine and other loonies who are so easily proved fantasists.

Here, Isthatu: http://ellhn.e-e-e.gr/books/assets/founder_of_Israel.pdf
Read it and give me your opinion.

Yet another voice on the Polish-Jewish thing (specifically the new Gross book): nwe.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=82

Kaliszer,
I would like to know how to contact you. Perhaps we are related. My family is from Poland and spelled the name like you Kaliszer. I will try to write you a private message.
Thank you.

Gorss in half Pole and half Jew and his new book is provokation. His other books are friedly for Poles but this one has one aim, he wanted to provoke debate about what happened after the WWII he talks about facts which really occured but this book isn't historical book.

Me and other Jews rock! :D

You hit the nail on the head.

Gross is similar to that ungrateful liar and plagiarist Kosinski. If the career is not going too well, and you happen to have a little Jewish blood in you then you can always write a book on how terrible those Poles are and how they killed Jews, often against clear protests of German occupiers of Poland. Yeah, Germans tried to stop Poles but what can one do, huh?

Gross is not a researcher or historian - he is a "hysterian"

As a student of Jewish history, let me put things in a nutshell for you: the origins of the Eastern Jews are in Central Asia...they are a Turkic tribe that migrated into the area of the lower Volga basin around the time of 200-300 AD...this tribe was then known as Kagans/Khazars...their religious worship was pagan in nature, with an emphasis on nature worship with some phallic worship, also...they were very fierce warriors, traders (slaves, furs, some textiles) and also farmers...the Muslims refer to them as Wa'Juj a Ma'Juj, or Gog and Magog...they had many conflicts, after 700
AD with the Muslim Ca;iphate, which was based in what is now Iraq...there was also commerce and exchange with the Jews who also lived in Babylonia at the same time...the Jews moved back to Babylonia after their final ejection from Judea and Samaria, the result of the Romans crushing the Bar Kochba rebellion around 133AD...
around 800 AD, the head or Kagan of the Khazars, Bulan, converted the whole nation of the Khazars to Rabbinical Judaism...this conversion was enabled by rabbis from the Jewish acadamies in Pumbitha/Sura, Babylonia who travelled between Khazaria and Babylonia...the conversion was made for political expediency, as the Khazars were under threat from both the Muslims to the South, and from the Byzantine Empire, which was Christian, based in Constantinople, from the West...they thus became a very large 'buffer' state...around 950 AD, the Khazars came under pressure from new tribes from the North, primarily the Rus...there were many conflicts, but finally, around 1000 AD, the Rus under Sviataslav, who had converted to Orthodox Christianity, finally destroyed Khazaria, for all intents and purposes...the Rus destroyed their fortress at Sarkel, which I believe was on the Don or Dneiper river, and also their capitol of Itil, which was on the Volga...at this point the Khazar 'Jews' dispersed North and Northwestward, into what is now the Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuaia and Poland...also note, that before the fall of the Khazarian kingdom, many Khazars also immigrated Westward, into Hungary...Kiev became an early center of Khazarian Jewry; there were also some Karaite Jews, who do not accept the Talmud, who emmigrated Northward from their homes in the Crimea area, but they were very small in number...anyway, these Khazars are the
historical source of the Eastern Jews...now, some peple call them Ashkenazic Jews,
and this is an acceptable term, except that Ashkenazim also refers to Jews who traditionally lived in Germany, the Rhineland and Bavaria, also some from northern Italy...the confusion comes from the fact that the German Ashkenazim never migrated Eastward into Poland/Lithuania/Russia in any significant numbers...BUT, the Yiddish language, which is a 'Hebraic' German, gradually became the 'lingua franca' of all the Eastern Jews, as the German Jews had a higher rate of literacy/language development...as the Khazars grew in numbers and in trade relations with surrounding tribes, including the German 'Ashkenazim', Yiddish became the main language of those who subscribed to the Jewish religion/culture...
Now, the Khazar Jews managed to live in relative peace with the Russians, and as we know, in the Polish/Lithuanian empire for hundreds of years...but, because of the tribal/religious differences, there was always a seperation...this was a source of friction...most Slavs are either Orthodox Catholics or Roman Catholics...Judaism, the religion of the Talmud, or 'Teachings of the Elders', of course, completely rejects Christ, and in fact, the Talmud is the only 'holy book' of any religion that specifically vilifies the founder of another faith, in this case Jesus Christ and his mother, Mary...although the Talmud has been to some extent censored or changed by the rabbis, because they knew that Christians had become aware of it's teachings, the old Christian Russians, Poles & Ukranians knew of these teachings and also some violent 'ritual' practices associated with it...this caused a fear of the
Jews, and later led to much worse...when the Russians broke up the Polish/Lithuanian 'empire', you see the creation of the so-called 'Pale of Settlement' in Russia, which corresponded to land seized from the Poles/Lithuanians...there was
a large Khazar population on these lands, and the Russian Czars felt they were an 'alien' presence, and imposed certain restrictions on them...this was during the late 18-19th Century...the tribal conflict, actually centuries long, between the Orthodoc Russians and the Khazar Jews reached it's tragic climax with the Bolshevik/Communist revolution in 1917...Bolshevism/Communism was a Jewish creation from start to finish, with the 'brain power'/money supplied by Ashkenazic
Jews from Germany (now also based in the UK/US), and the 'shock troops' or killers
supplied by the Rusian Khazars...we know the result: the destruction of Mother Russia, with an estimated 20-30 million Russian Christians/peasants slaughtered under the Communist/Talmudic rule...Poland became independent for a time after the Bolshevik takeover, led by one Iosef Pilsudski, the great Polish warrior who stopped the Red Army of Trotsky at the Battle of Warsaw, 1919...this battle prevented the Russian Bolshevists from linking up with their German 'brothers and sisters', led by Rosa Luxembourg among others, and completing the 'Bolshevization' of all Norther Europe...but this was only a temporary respite...Hitler became dictator of a prostrate Germany, and thus began the Nazis, who were a reaction to the Jewish Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union...Poland was caught in between, and you know the rest...I invite comments.

thats a bloody big nutshell joe...;)

Hehehe, he started out with the best of intentions

yep and mussolini got the trains to run on time......

isthatu wrote:

thats a bloody big nutshell joe...;)

My nuts are so big, you need a gravy-boat to hold 'em!