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Jews...and their Polish experience


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Amathyst
  Jun 7, 07, 10:29  #391

So why do some Jews wear black clothes? In part this came about because the medieval church and state demanded that Jews wear black at all times. The European countries generally decreed so-called “sumptuary” laws (The Latin word sumere refers to spending or consuming). These laws required each social class in the feudal system to wear clothes appropriate to their rank. Hence, the upper class wore gaudy clothes of many colors and ornamented profusely. By law, Jews were non-persons and had to wear black clothes so they could be identified at once. The Jews also had to wear a yellow armband or star or other mark. This was abandoned in the eighteenth century but re-instituted by the European killers during the years 1933-1945.

Black clothes are also known to Jews as a symbolic expression divrai yirah shomayim, which means “fearing heaven”. To some Jews life is very serious and the Jew is always conscious of his relationship to G’d. Therefore black is worn so as to avoid frivolity and also place distance between the wearer and everyone else.

Orthodox Jews also wear a prayer belt called a g*rtel in German or Yiddish. This belt is to indicate that the wearer separates his upper body from his lower body as the head is the location of all that is inspired while our bottom serves lesser purposes.

Many orthodox Jewish men also wear a black hat and some wear a streimel , i.e. a fur lined hat. The hat style may vary according to the European origin of a Chassidic sect. Therefore, Lithuanians may wear a different head covering than Galicians, although all will wear a skull cap all day.The wearing of the skull cap, also known as a kippa or yarmulka, shows respect for G’d, who is thought to live in heaven above us. Hence we separate ourselves from the divine presence by wearing a hat or cap at all times.


Hope this answers some of your questions regarding "why do jews"


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joepilsudski
Edited by: joepilsudski  Jun 19, 07, 16:36  #392

The 'Ashkenazim' or 'Eastern' Jews are descendants of the Khazars/Kagans, a Central
Asian people who for a number of centuries were a powerful tribal nation in the area of
what is now the southern Ukraine/North Caucasus region...they converted to 'Phairasism' or rabbinical Judaism in the 8-10 century AD...they learned the 'Religion
of the Elders' from Talmudic rabbis who lived in Babylon...the Phairisees were driven out
of Palestine in the 2nd century AD...they returned to Babylon, which was the place of their original exile...they set up Talmudic schools there...Babylon/Iraq was close to the
nation of the Khazars, who were primarily traders & warriors...the Khazars were located
in between the Byzantine Empire (Christian) & the Babylonian Caliphate (Muslim)...the
Khazars learned 'Judaism' from the 'travelling rabbis' of Babylon as a political expedient, and as a strategy to hold off these two large & sometimes hostile neighbors...it worked for about 3 centuries, until the Rus came down from the north & with the help of the Byzantines, defeated them...they then moved westward & northward into Hungary, Romania, Poland & Lithuania...this is the origin of the 'Eastern' Jews...they have no tribal connection to the Judeans or 'Judah'...this gives lie to Israel's 'Biblical right' to Palestine... eventually, their religion (Phairasism or Talmudism) morphed into the Kabalistic sects such as the Hassidim...they are a very 'driven' tribal people who have been at the center of some of the most violent events of the 20th century...just a bit of historical background.

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witek
  Jun 19, 07, 18:52  #393

Quoting: joepilsudski
The 'Ashkenazim' or 'Eastern' Jews are descendants of the Khazars/Kagans,


you are wrong

Ashkenazi Jews descend from the medieval Jewish communities of the Rhineland, "Ashkenaz" being the Medieval Hebrew name for Germany. They migrated there from the Middle East between the 5th- 10th century.

the Khazar theory has been adopted by anti-Semites who argue that if Ashkenazi Jews are Khazar and not Semetic in origin then the Jews would have no historical claim to Israel.

no modern mainstream scholars support this theory.


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hachamovich
Edited by: hachamovich  Jun 20, 07, 02:30  #394

Witek and Joepilsudski, you're both right in some ways. Jews are devided to 3: Ashkenazi Jews (Most of the jews of europe), Sepharadi Jews (Jews of Spain & Portugal. -> most of them have immigrated to the Balkan, and then to Israel) and Mizrakhi Jews (Jews of Asia & Africa). Their look is determind by their origins. Ashkenazic Jews often have light skin/hair/eyes. Most of the Jews are of Ashkenazic Ethnicity (Especially of Russian and Polish origins), and how did the Ashkenazic get to Europe? 2000 years ago Jews were exiled from Israel by the Romans. Many of them were sent to what is known today as Italy as Slaves (and immigrated to Germany from there), some immigrated to Spain,Germany and France, and others crossed Asia, through the Caucasus to Russia. About the Khazars - Khazaria was a kingdom in the Southern Ukraine/North Caucasus area, true. They were known as people with a Red hair and blue eyes, most of them anyway. Some Jews who had to leave Babylon moved straight ahead to Europe - through Khazaria. Some of them stayed In Khazaria, and after hundreds of years the king of the Khazars started to believe in the Jewish Religion, after talking to A Rabbi, A Priest and A Sheikh. At the beginning, most of the Elite of the Khazaria did "gyor" (became Jewish), and a few years later most of the Khazars became Jews. After the Kingdom fall, many of them changed their religion to Christianity, some of them moved north/east to the lands of Russia and some of them moved west to Poland, Ashkenaz, Lithuania etc'. Some of the Ashkenazic Jews are actually Sepharadic (some of the Romanian Jews, Dutch Jews, Belgian Jews, German Jews and Russian Jews), because when the Jews were exiled from Spain & Portugal, many of them moved east to other European countries, while most of them moved to the Balkan. By the way, from Genetic tests that have been made in Israel, a gene that is very common in Turkish-race people was found at *some* Ashkenazic Jews. Some say It's a proof of Khazar origins. The term "Ashkenazic" is originally from the word "Ashkenaz" - that refers to Germany, but most of the Jews of Europe are called Ashkenazic, doesnt matter if their origins are of German Jews are not, and thats because of the way they pray at the Bet-Knesset. The "Nusakh Tfila" (way they pray) has been created in Ashkenaz, Germany.

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joepilsudski
  Jun 20, 07, 15:32  #395

Yes, some of the religious rite probably came from the Balkans & Germany...I was concentrating on the Ashkenazic tribal origin...Arthur Koestler's book on the Ashkenazim
covered this in a scholarly fashion...the Khazars migrated into Hungary & Romania also...
an interesting note to this history is a tribe called the 'Red Kagans' who were also of
Central Asian/Turkic origin...there is a web site devoted to them...there flag or 'symbol
of Heraldry' was what is now called the 'Star of David'...it is, in fact a sun symbol...the
'Magen David' was never associated with Judaism until it's use in Czechoslavakia (it was
found as a marker on some tombstones) in the Middle Ages...it has no Torah/Biblical mention...the 7-9 branch Menorah was always the symbol of the Phairasees/Jews...it was passed on by the Kagans/Khazars who morphed into the Talmudic tribes of Russia,
Poland etc...there are ancient Eastern European coins that have this marking, too...the
Khazars were apparently metal workers...I find all this history fascinating, and I guess
my point is that the Ashkenazim have played games with history and used it to justify a 'right to the land' that this tribe's ancestors never lived in, Palestine... it is a scam.

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away guy
  Jun 20, 07, 15:34  #396

I LOVE THE JEWS , THEY THE BEST ! I DO ALOT OF BUSINESS WITH THEM AND I HAVE NEVER HAD PROBLEMS , THE MONEY KEEPS ROLLING IN ...

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Bratwurst Boy
  Jun 20, 07, 15:42  #397

What does "Ashkenaz" mean...translated in regard to Germany?


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witek
  Jun 20, 07, 15:52  #398

Quoting: Bratwurst Boy
What does "Ashkenaz" mean...translated in regard to Germany?



Quoting: witek
Ashkenaz" being the Medieval Hebrew name for Germany


it seems the Bratwurst is killing you brain cells


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Bratwurst Boy
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 20, 07, 15:54  #399

Umm....There was no "Germany" at that time...it can very well be that the Jews had their own name for the lands they now lived in.

Don't you think so too?


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Bratwurst Boy
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 20, 07, 16:01  #400

Just googled a bit....a possible meaning:

Book Moses, 10. chapter....Ashkenaze is one son of Japhet and some Rabbies think he is the "Ur-father (proto German so to speak)" of the Germans that's why middle european Jews called themselves Ashkenazim...

Ah ja...


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joepilsudski
Edited by: joepilsudski  Jun 21, 07, 11:54  #401

'Ashkenaz' is a middle-age Hebrew translation for Germany...but the name is also interesting because: 'Nasi' is an Aramaic (Hebrew dialect spoken in Palestine during &
after the life of Jesus) word which means 'prince' or more simply 'leader'...so 'Askenazi' could be transliterated as 'Princes of Germany'...also, the Khazars, who were discussed earlier, considered themselves to be descendants of Japeth, a son of Noah, from the Bible...Ashkenaz was a great grandson of Japeth...now another son of Noah was Shem.
who the present Middle-Eastern people, or Semites are descended from...descendents of Japeth/Ashkenaz are not Semites...confused yet?...another twist: the German National Socialists, as far as I have studied, never called themselves 'Nazis'...this term
was a creation of the Jewish/Zionist organizations in America/NYC in the late 30's & early
40's when Hitler came to power...I mention this as a curiosity.

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Bratwurst Boy
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 21, 07, 13:05  #402

Hmmm...I've read in Shirer's "The rise and fall of the third Reich" the term "Nazi" originated in Bavaria first...


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Amathyst
  Jun 21, 07, 13:25  #403

Quoting: hachamovich
Witek and Joepilsudski, you're both right in some ways. Jews are devided to 3: Ashkenazi Jews (Most of the jews of europe), Sepharadi Jews (Jews of Spain & Portugal. -> most of them have immigrated to the Balkan, and then to Israel) and Mizrakhi Jews (Jews of Asia & Africa). Their look is determind by their origins. Ashkenazic Jews often have light skin/hair/eyes. Most of the Jews are of Ashkenazic Ethnicity (Especially of Russian and Polish origins), and how did the Ashkenazic get to Europe? 2000 years ago Jews were exiled from Israel by the Romans. Many of them were sent to what is known today as Italy as Slaves (and immigrated to Germany from there), some immigrated to Spain,Germany and France, and others crossed Asia, through the Caucasus to Russia. About the Khazars - Khazaria was a kingdom in the Southern Ukraine/North Caucasus area, true. They were known as people with a Red hair and blue eyes, most of them anyway. Some Jews who had to leave Babylon moved straight ahead to Europe - through Khazaria. Some of them stayed In Khazaria, and after hundreds of years the king of the Khazars started to believe in the Jewish Religion, after talking to A Rabbi, A Priest and A Sheikh. At the beginning, most of the Elite of the Khazaria did "gyor" (became Jewish), and a few years later most of the Khazars became Jews. After the Kingdom fall, many of them changed their religion to Christianity, some of them moved north/east to the lands of Russia and some of them moved west to Poland, Ashkenaz, Lithuania etc'. Some of the Ashkenazic Jews are actually Sepharadic (some of the Romanian Jews, Dutch Jews, Belgian Jews, German Jews and Russian Jews), because when the Jews were exiled from Spain & Portugal, many of them moved east to other European countries, while most of them moved to the Balkan. By the way, from Genetic tests that have been made in Israel, a gene that is very common in Turkish-race people was found at *some* Ashkenazic Jews. Some say It's a proof of Khazar origins. The term "Ashkenazic" is originally from the word "Ashkenaz" - that refers to Germany, but most of the Jews of Europe are called Ashkenazic, doesnt matter if their origins are of German Jews are not, and thats because of the way they pray at the Bet-Knesset. The "Nusakh Tfila" (way they pray) has been created in Ashkenaz, Germany.


I have to say that was really intersting to me, my mother is dark skinned and dark brown eyes (obviously dark hair or was when she was younger) her grand father was jewish - he was adopted around the late 19th century (circa. 1875) but only used his own name when he joined the army to fight (he used his birth name - just to clarify - the name he had before he was adopted) Bachon, any ideas on the origin of this name.


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hachamovich
Edited by: hachamovich  Jun 22, 07, 02:03  #404

Quoting: Amathyst
Bachon, any ideas on the origin of this name?

Bachon is a surname of French origins. There were a lot of Jews in France, some were Ashkenazic and some Sepharadic (mostly in the Southern part of France, near the borders with Spain). Dark-Skinned? Most of the Ashkenazic and the Sepharadic Jews have a light skin. thats weird. But there were Jews that were dark-skinned in europe, although they were a very small percentage of the Jewish population there.
Quoting: joepilsudski
my point is that the Ashkenazim have played games with history and used it to justify a 'right to the land' that this tribe's ancestors never lived in, Palestine... it is a scam.
- You should read my message again. Most of the Ashkenazim are of Jewish origins, came from the land of Israel, and only a very small part of them is of Khazar origins.

-----
By the way, I'm new here, and I'll be the Israeli ambassador to this website :P

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southern
  Dec 18, 07, 09:20  #405

Quoting: joepilsudski
...so 'Askenazi' could be transliterated as 'Princes of Germany'


That is why they faced such a royal treatment in Germany.

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szmata
  Dec 18, 07, 19:49  #406

 

love this tune!


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kaliszer
  Dec 23, 07, 08:15  #407

"Ashkenaz" in the Bible meant some other european or turkish ethnic group. But in the middle ages it was used by Jews to refer to the german areas and the rhineland. In those days there were three main areas of jewish communities: germany-france (called "ashkenaz") , Spain (called "sefarad") and Iraq (called "bavel" or babylon). There were Jews in many other places too, but these were the main centers.

Ashkenazi jews of today descend from the jews of france and germany who migrated eastward to bohemia, poland, lthuania and the rest of eastern europe. The khazars were much further east and their civilization had nothing to do with "ashkenazim".

People use the "Khazar" argument to deligitimize jews living in Israel. My question to this argument is: Do you want us to live in Poland or germany? Polish people always told Jews to "go back to palestine". We did. So what are you compaining about now?

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lesser
  Dec 23, 07, 09:57  #408

kaliszer wrote:
My question to this argument is: Do you want us to live in Poland or germany?


Why should I care where you live? If you are here legally and don't have problem with Poles then people wont care about it. Why do you want to create problems that don't exist?

kaliszer wrote:
Polish people always told Jews to "go back to palestine". We did. So what are you compaining about now?


Religious Jews left, capitalist Jews left and those damn commie Jews still here! :)


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kaliszer
  Dec 23, 07, 10:06  #409

In one post you say on the one hand that jews can live in poland, like there's no problem, and on the other hand you complain about "those damn commie Jews" that are still in poland. Your bigotry is so obvious it makes you look ridiculous.

Here's a bit of news: We have a country, Israel, and we don't need your permission to live there. We certainly don't need your permission to live in Poland, because no Jew is interested in moving to Poland.

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Grzegorz_
Edited by: Grzegorz_  Dec 23, 07, 10:13  #410

kaliszer wrote:
Your bigotry is so obvious it makes you look ridiculous.


No. You make yourself look ridiculous. You came to this forum and the only thing you do is pathetic attempt to play a victim. Now call me antisemitic.


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kaliszer
  Dec 23, 07, 10:25  #411

I'm not a victim. I don't live in Poland so it doesn't affect me if Poles hate me or not. It has no importance. But i am interested in Polish history and Jewish-Polish history, and I think it's fascinating how Polish attitudes towards Jews has nothing to do with actual Jews. Most of the things you think you know about us have no connection to reality.

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Grzegorz_
  Dec 23, 07, 10:29  #412

kaliszer wrote:
Polish attitudes towards Jews has nothing to do with actual Jews.


There is no such thing as "Polish attitudes towards Jews".

kaliszer wrote:
Most of the things you think you know about us have no connection to reality.


You don't know what I think I know.


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kaliszer
  Dec 23, 07, 10:52  #413

No such thing as Polish attitudes toward Jews? Look around this forum. Look at your own posts.

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Grzegorz_
  Dec 23, 07, 10:57  #414

kaliszer wrote:
Look at your own posts.


You come here, write in each and every of your posts about Jews, so who the hell should I write back about ? Aborigines ?


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lesser
  Dec 23, 07, 13:56  #415

kaliszer wrote:
In one post you say on the one hand that jews can live in poland, like there's no problem, and on the other hand you complain about "those damn commie Jews" that are still in poland. Your bigotry is so obvious it makes you look ridiculous.


You know I'm a bit different :) I have some amount of German blood in my veins. The first sentence was from a Pole, the second was prepared by this German part of me. So in general you cannot blame Poles for this. Blame Germans :)

By the way this is funny that so many Jews I met on the internet have problem with history of Poland while they rarely raise the German issue. It is linked with amount of compensation that both states pay the Jews? Since you appeared in this forum, please answer. Let me know this interesting phenomena.


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kaliszer
  Dec 24, 07, 02:38  #416

I don't raise the german issue because the role of the germans in killing Jews is so obvious that there's nothing to discuss. The germans don't deny it. We also have no argument with the Poles that the germans are the perpetrators - nobody claims that the holocaust was done by the Poles. The discussion between Jews and Poles is about the relationship between two ethnic-religious groups that lived in the same country for hundreds of years, sometimes in harmony, but more often with hostility and suspicion. It's an interesting topic and it has a lot of emotional baggage.

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lesser
Edited by: lesser  Dec 24, 07, 03:40  #417

kaliszer wrote:
The discussion between Jews and Poles is about the relationship between two ethnic-religious groups that lived in the same country for hundreds of years, sometimes in harmony, but more often with hostility and suspicion. It's an interesting topic and it has a lot of emotional baggage.


From my observation, majority of the Jews (at least from the US that I discussed with) complain about some rare pogroms (often with exaggeration) or other less serious misbehaviors of Poles. OK, I don't say that Poles are so innocent. On other hand those Jews are completely unaware (or completely in denial) of crimes committed by their compatriots against Poles. Add widespread opinion that they are not responsible to some extend for the rise of anti-Jewish sentiments because lack of willingness to truly assimilate among native population. The point is that before they start complain they should also think a bit about their own history.


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kaliszer
  Dec 24, 07, 06:29  #418

I agree that any group that is hated might be partly to blame. In fact Jewish writers in the 19th and 20th century had all kinds of ideas of what Jews shoul be doing to stop people from hating them. But after a while they realized that no matter whether they assimilated or not, spoke Polish or Russian or german, dress like their Christian neighbors and ate the same food, were nationalists, communists or traditionalists - it made no difference. Jews can't remain Jews in some else's country. That conclusion is what led to political Zionism. The idea was that if we want to live as Jews, we have to live in our own country. And that's what happened. Unfortunately, most Jews waited too long.

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lesser
  Dec 24, 07, 06:57  #419

This is human nature in action. Do you think that treatment of Polish minority in Germany or German minority in Poland were so great? Currently when Zionists realized they dream, the Jews should realize that they are not better than other nations. How many Jews would wish to get rid Arabs from Israel?


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kaliszer
  Dec 24, 07, 07:38  #420

Human nature, as you say. I have a lot to say about that, but the thing with the Arabs is for another forum altogether.

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