Jews...and their Polish experience

exactly matthies,we might not agree on much but I think we do here. It is irelevent whethere ANYONE thinks that Israel should or should not have been created. Thats a cozy academic argument. The reality is it is there,people with no connection to the shady way it was created live and work and try to live normal lives there now and as such deserve to do so in peace and saftey.
To polarize and say,Israel -bad to Palestinians,Arabs good to them is just plain wrong. One of the major factors in the tensions of the area is the fact that since the refugees fled to neighbouring Arab states those states have had no interest in intergrating the palestinains into their own comunities or even giving them a little patch of their own land. In many ways the palastininans have been the patsy for the various unsavoury rulers surounding Israel/Palestine and as such their suffering has been caused by both sides.

What the fek are you on Lukasz? what on earth do you mean convert? I havnt converted to or from anything,Im agnostic,my direct ancestors are a split mix of catholic and presbeteryan,all from a nations that have had an established christain church 500 years before your country existed,I think you ARE PICKING UP ON THE FACT WEEKS AGO i MENTIONED HAVING JEWISH FAMILY MEMBERS......YOUR ANTI SEMITISM IS SHOWING ITS FACE BABY....you know,its not illegal to have jewish relatives here buddy or indead marry someone of another faith,we dont generally burn or hang converts here,havnt done for a long long time,we leave that to less enlightened papist sociaties.........

isthatu nicely said. yeah your right we don't agree on much but when in comes to this issues im glad we agree.


for the person who commented that return to original borders won't stop terrorism. I didn't say it will (it might but probably not). I advocate that because I think it is the right thing to do palastines deserve their own country plus it will improve israels international image. if israels image is improved then other countries will do more to protect israel from terrorism.

and like ive said elswhere,and come to think of it,so have you,nothings black and white,I will often argue shades of gray or play a little devils advocate just to get the juices flowing ,so to speak.

isthatu I noticed, and might I add your very good at it. I hope Im not shooting my self in the foot when I say Keep doing what you do.

lets just tone down the levels of abuse we can both sometimes throw around here. Its not big,and its not clever.We may know we are not serious but others may not:)

laughing out loud Good Point. Explains why I feel so misunderstood.

Mistake or not, this is not our problem. What we should do is stay out from some local conflicts which have no impact on our national interests.

well im not so selfish. I believe in helping whenever and wherever you can. not comparing the situation to genocide but would you not support the stop of genocide even if its not in your nations interest.

and that's not even mentioning its in everybody's interest for peace in the middle east. and not even mentioning the yalta conference powers are responsible. so they should fix what they broke.

So you should not run Polish diplomacy, because politicians from other countries (serious countries) are and always were selfish. This is not the place where money from our taxes should flow.

Beside of that, think a bit about the outcome. No matter what we would do, the Jews and the Arabs wont like it. You want "help", waste our cash and get hate in revenge, plus no peace anyway.

Hows your bunker coming along lesser? got all the baked beans you need? plenty of water and such ?

Do you have something to say beside this babbling above?

Ok,in plain English so you can follow. Lesser,you come across as an isolationist nutter,the type who see's enemies everywhere and only really feels safe under the duvet with their teddy bear.No offence you understand.

Enemies? Name those enemies.

I'm not isolationist, I do analyze all possible cases separately. I don't exclude even military intervention if this would be necessary from Polish point of view.

I also hate how goverment rob taxpayers and oppose all unnecessary spendings.

You better explain how this is in Polish interest to meddle in Middle East politics??

have a look at some of the other threads closer to the topic,war on terror et al.
I suppose you are one of those that ***** and moan about poland having been left alone to the sviets yet cant see that things swing both ways,you can either sit in your bunker and hope the world will go away and leave you alone or you,Poland can come and join the international community now and again. Its a case of "put up or shut up."
(not that I dont empathise,I would love to be a citizin of one of those countries that manages to do alright on its own thank you very much,I just dont think they exist on this planet.)

Poland should trade with everybody and have good relation with as much countries as possible. However Poland should not build huge Brussels bureaucracy or send troops all over the world. First action is clearly anti-personal freedom and second simply nonessential. Both target taxpayers.

NATO should not take part in military action in Asia or Africa. This is in their status.

I cant agree,anti personal freedom,my arse, as a leading member of the Royale family would say. What do you think gave your country its freedom? The fact there was a united europe chipping at the iron curtain. all these ,"ooh,brussels is destroying my freedom" whingers just dont realise how good they get it now as opposed to pre european co operation days where backwards countries could pass outrages laws banning all sorts of real freedoms,like freedom of personal expresion,freedom to .......oh forget it,there are enough anti eu knobs around here without me getting in a pointless debate with someone who doesnt now the meaning of responsibilities.
You think its fine that Poland should trade with everyone,have all the advantages of a post communist sociaty but do fek all to earn that place,fine,see how long you'd last that way.

I agree if you want freedom you should pay the necessary costs. countrary to what you think freedom isn't free.

I doubt it,seeing as NATO was set up to counter the threat of the warsaw pact forces . Do you think Nato,in the event of ww3 would have gone,"nope,cant bomb the soviet pacific fleet coz its in asia"?
I for one am proud our(uk) forces went in alone in Africa,we put a stop to the carnage in Sierra leone,one of the few good things tony blair did.

"Freedom" is a relative term raped by all kind of governments regularly. Communism collapsed because bankrupted, nothing to do with Europe. Read books of Vladimir Bukovsky then you will learn about real positions of western European leaders on Eastern Europe. Your idealized world would crumble. I don't blame them but I draw conclusions.

Somehow you have no desire to discuss the EU issues in this forum. Defend them or criticize, both attitudes must be backed by some knowledge... The EU doesn't need to be based on bureaucracy and socialism and those who claim so are either blind or liars.



NATO wont be at war with Russia, this is a reality that some need to swallow. Theoretically if Russia would attack NATO member then the latter could invade them. This situation have nothing to do with so called WOT swindle.

why antysemitism Now you made it clear you dont feel any connections with your origin (shame) ... that is all.



we are everywhere some people just think it is to much ... Kosovo Afghanstan Israel Iraq Africa ...

"advocate of evil" ... pathetic



you are so enlighted ...

There was no Warsaw Pact when NATO was established, so the fact is that Warsaw Pact was an answer to NATO, not the other way around.

NATO - established on 4 April 1949.
Warsaw Pact - established on May 14, 1955 as a reaction to NATO's acceptance of West Germany 5 days earlier.

Warsaw Pact/Bunch of Commie states collected round USSR...now your quibling. I suppose now you will tell me you guys only had missiles pointed westwards as " Purely defensive peoples weapons system"........either way Comrade lessers idea that NATO wouldnt have fought in Asia is bizzare.BTW Comrade lessor,when did I say we intended to fight russia? I said NATO was set up for the possibility it MAY have had to fight russia........

What are you rabbiting on about lukaSSz?your a bit disturbed arnt you,first its threats to people and plastering their name all over here now I am somehow forgeting a non existent jewish heratage. Your frikkin tapped mate,Id start back on the meds if I was you......

compared to you buddy I reached nirvana years ago.......

this statement shows your nirvana ... iSStahu

maybe one where he's not giving a heil hitler style salute would have better suited your argument......:)

Lesser the Soviet economy went bankrupt because they spent all their money on the military trying to keep up with America and Nato. So It had everything to do with Europe. In addition the Pope and the solidarity movement was another force thatcracked communism because the soviet could not afford a war. All these issues are related and have all to do with Europe and especially America. For whoever said that Warsaw pact was answer to Nato. Even though the warsaw pact wasn't formed till after Nato was established. Obviously with Russia controling all of eastern europe it was obvious where the countries under the Russian sphere stood. So warsaw pact was established though not formally known as the warsaw pact the first day after ww2 that Russia took control of eastern europe. NATO was established because Russia had its claws and controlled eastern europe

This and the oil price which fell to ridiculous levels doomed soviet economy.However the system would last if there were had been no insider traitors.

southern explain insider traitor?

The soviet union destroyed Polands economi.
If the soviet would still be, then Poland would live as they did in the fifties.

You wrote that NATO was a response to Warsaw Pact. I proved to you it wasn't. Your throbbing is just pointless and adds nothing to the debate, and apparently you can't keep a deal. Could it really be a Britihs trait? Please, prove me wrong.

You are wrong. NATO is firsts and foremost the US, by military potential and financial input. Anyway high Soviet military spendings were not crucial. How many years the US waste a lot of cash on military spendings and somehow they didn't bankrupt.

The problem with Soviet system was that they wanted by force push their ideology completely ignoring the realities. Reality was not important, they tried to establish communist kind of economy by all means. They had such incredible unwillingness to admit to their own mistakes and were stuck with completely insufficient solutions. The Soviet Union lasted so long only because citizens as much as possible tried to avoid law order, all these silly bureaucratic regulations. If they would stick strictly to these regulations then Soviet Union would collapse earlier. They would probably die from hunger themselves. Collectivization, lack of private business, overwhelming bureaucracy caused economic crash.