Jews...and their Polish experience

Can I just say something here.

Frank, you asked about Jews in the early part of the last century. This was a time of partition in Poland. I'm sure that you are aware of this so please don't shout me down.

The area that most Jewish people lived in was south-east Poland. But not the Poland we know today. The Jewish population extended into what is now Ukraine. This poses a problem when answering part of your question. Neither the people nor the country exist as they did then. So any opinion would be second hand.

Cardinal Glemp has been very vocal against the Jews and at one point had to be told by John Paul II to apologise for past indisgretions against Polish Jews. I have already provided a link regarding this, but on another thread.

Whether we like it or not, Polish Jews were dicriminated against in the past.

There is no need to discriminate against them now, because most people in Poland have never knowingly met one. Take post #24 as a reference.

Aniah,

Post #44

The Jewish people are well known for building up a community and helping each other out with regard to business. They very often would trade with each other within their community. This is what local people might have used as a starting point when saying anything negative against these people. Also, as these people gained wealth it would show up in the resentment of others in times of poverty. As a nation were the Polish anti-semetic ? I doubt it. Nowadays we are all , hopefully, better people living in a world where we can all get along.

I also doubt very much that many people would have considered themselves wealthy at the end of World War II. Most people whatever their religion only had the clothes they stood up in and nothing else.

Glad we cleared this up Iwona.......no problem...and as I don't speak Polish...how can I condemn you for making a grammatical mistake ????....



Its a common response...no one wants to be a victim again......best form of defence is attack...true?

Tell it to the Irish......its on our passports.....!!!

W...would I ever.....lol.....and no I didn't know...ta for that.....




This is what I wanted to clarify......come to understand...why, how, where...was it purely a local response...or people told to be that way...ie obeying dictats of church or state?

Just asked the family. The answer. Um, don't really know.

Hhhhhmmmmmmmm...................but did you ask the right question W....?

Am pullin' your leg..........!

Much snow there?

No snow. It's too warm.

I was studing a bit the issue, but am not any any expert... why ? Probably to make more of them come here as Poland needed more people. What right ? There were some, I think that at least for some time only Jews could own karczmy - a kind of bars/restaurants.



For most of time I was talking about there wasn't any Polish government, after Poland regained independence in 1918 the government definately wasn't anti-semitic, but after Piłsudski died in 1935 and quite radical politicians took over the government there were even a few anti-semitic laws passed, like limited access to the university education for Jews, but on the other hand someone could say that far worse things were going on in the southern states until 60's/70's. What the Catholic church thought about that ? I don't think that the church in general was "promoting anti-semitism", however of course there was a kind of "competition" and even now there are problems between religions, even between branches of Christianity. What the people thought ? These more patriotic oriented rather didn't like Jews, but rather not for who they were, but for what most of them were doing - didn't want to assimilate, often worked for invaders etc.



You mean in Polish schools ? Rather not, but people know that there were some problems and most are not so naive to think that all Poles were innocent and brave and that all Jews were bad. If you mean western history books, they usually show some bad things done by Poles without a wider context as a prove of "vast Polish anti-semitism". Why ? Because most of these "Holocaust studies" and such things are run by Jews and they are simply biased, other authors are usually quoting them and use their "reaserches" in own publications.



And what can they do about It ? I was talking about things many Jews are unfortunately "promoting" in foreign states, especially USA and Canada.



Well, I read many such "personal experiences" and let me have some doubts about many of them. For example I read once a speech of some "Holocaust survivor" given in some American school, that was a woman, who was a child during WW2 and she claims that when Germans came for them, she somehow escaped, but no Poles wanted to help her, so... she lived alone in a forest for 3 years - anybody who spent winter in Poland knows that It's simply not possible, especially in case of a child.



Come on. You or me would do the same.

I'm 1/8 Jew and not rich unforunately. Maybe because 7/8 is that bad and "anti-semitic", that's why my "brothers" don't want to help me.

The point is that If a Catholic priest were attacked, you wouldn't hear about that and that means something.

Gee...G...you're not second guessing me in a flight or fight situation?....

Thanks for all those points, clarification of issues...its certainly filling in the blank spaces, giving a broader oversight of what did take place....etc






Maybe so, but all inputs/research is useful...then we have to seek a balanced view of all accounts, ...make our own minds up.



Where they fascists...or no-one objected...?

No. Although some now call even Bush a fascist... Who objected ? Poles ? I think that It was a pretty much controversial thing.

The price for helping a Jew in WWII was death, not just for the person involved but his whoel family. The Nazis did not make empty threats. What would the Jewish woman do if she found herself in this position? Sacrifice her children for a stranger? I think not.

In spite of the dangers, many Poles did help Jews in the war.

In winter it is common to get to -10 C or even -20 C. How would this woman survive in a forest? I think there are parts of this story she is not telling or have been misinterpreted along the way.

Frank Can you explain your interest in this matter?

Can I ask also was the Irish Government in the second world war pro German and anti Jewish?

I had a jewish friend tell me that pope john pauls mother was a jew. I saw a picture of her and she does have semetic features. The article also stated that john pauls father and family didn't carry anti-semetic views like alote of the polish at the time.

Pope john pauls parents



Clearly the mother has semetic features.

And George Bush is a Jew too...



Yawn...

Very interesting, Grzegorz. Thank you.

Don't take it from me...

The Wojtylas were strict Catholics, but did not share the anti-Semitic views of many Poles. One of Lolek's playmates was Jerzy Kluger, a Jew who many years later would play a key role as a go-between for John Paul II and Israeli officials when the Vatican extended long-overdue diplomatic recognition to Israel
Kluger told The New York Times that he spent many afternoons sitting in the kitchen next to the Wojtylas' coal stove listening to Lolek's father tell stories about Greece, Rome and Poland.

Lolek, in turn, went to the Klugers' 10-room apartment overlooking the town square and listened to music performed by a string quartet composed of two Jews and two Catholics.

"The people in the Vatican do not know Jews, and previous popes did not know Jews," Kluger told the Times. "But this pope is a friend of the Jewish people because he knows Jewish people."

Indeed, Wojtyla became the first pope to visit a synagogue and the first to visit the memorial at Auschwitz to victims of the Holocaust. In ending the Catholic-Jewish estrangement, he called Jews "our elder brothers."

Well, I read many such "personal experiences" and let me have some doubts about many of them. For example I read once a speech of some "Holocaust survivor" given in some American school, that was a woman, who was a child during WW2 and she claims that when Germans came for them, she somehow escaped, but no Poles wanted to help her, so... she lived alone in a forest for 3 years - anybody who spent winter in Poland knows that It's simply not possible, especially in case of a child.

It doesn't sound realistic for child to survive for 3 years without any help.

About helping Jews- My mum was telling me that one day during war jewman knocked my grandparents' door and ask my grandad to show him the way (go with him to another town) when somweone was waiting for him. He wanted to pay for it . My grandad was tempted to go with him by my grandmother stopped him. She said you have 3 little children if Germans catch you they will kill you and us. My grandad didn't go.Maybe he felt little guilty....but during war these were moral choices.I suppose that many Polish were eager to help Jews just not everyone was so brave and heroic.

Lef, the war has always been of interest, plus as I've been to Poland 3 times in the last year, its something I wanted to understand better. Our own history books at school were very skimpy on details regarding Poland itself and the relatively huge jewish population.

Ireland didn't cover itself in glory during WWII in many peoples eyes, but you have to remember, it fought a war of independence against Britian and civil war just 15yrs before and they didn't want to become involved with Britain at any level during the war.

There was tacit co-operation though with Britain....but very reluctantly....as for how they interacted with Germany, I am not wholly sure; certainly during WWI the germans supplied arms to the Irish to fight the british....the understanding was, "any enemy of britains was our friend"....!!!...that was how it was percieved at the time

As I have stated 10s of thousands did volunteer to fight in British forces throughout the war, including two of my uncles.

The Irish Republic has no monuments to the thoudands of brave Irish who died fighting the Nazi threat.
Why is that?

An interesting little anecdote here.

My wife's great uncle was a bit of a "wide boy" who managed to keep a successful private business going throughout the Stalinist era and beyond. OK, although he was an AK leader in his country district with Communist "friends" no-one could work out where he got his protection from ... until he decided to tell his story on his deathbed 5 years ago. He hid a Jew all through the war, and that Jew went on to become a high-ranking security apparatchik who felt a debt of gratitude towards his friend and saviour.
Of course, the favours didn't all go one way after the war - the relationship favoured both parties. Business is business, but the link was forged in wartime.

Moreover, without going into detail, the Kaczynskis' idea that lustracja will rid Polish public life of its Communist hangover is wrong-minded, as that man's grandchildren are still benefiting from the "virtues/sins" of their grandfather.

ahaha i was on pg 2 lol..

post #74...?

I don't think there are laws in america but who knows. I am not in europe just yet

Bojownik, be carefull some countries have laws that prevent you from questioning the holocaust. What you just said can land you in prison.

I say that in a joking way even though it is true. Everything you said is 100% True, but you are not allowed to question it in many European Countries including Poland. That really makes me wonder , why would they not allow us to deny or even study it. Is it because they know that 6 million people never died and want to silence us about it so they can keep grabbing more and more money?

So you are denying that the holocaust happened and at the same time being anti-semitic?

Perhaps it's a question of numbers that's at issue here.
No reasonable person would call you anti-semitic for saying 5 million died instead of 6.
The holocaust happened.
6 million Poles died, of which half were Jews. You could argue the numbers of course.
Profiteering by lawyers continues to happen.
Dishonest politicking happens too.
Liars and extremists aren't in short supply either.

I am not denying death camps, i am not denying germans hating jews. I am Questioning the possibility of 6 million jews dying.

Possibility......what that none died at all?...or just 5 or just 4.......million.....?

The figure can never be totally accurate due to the huge overall number, brilliant as Germans were at keeping records, I don't know how much survived the war.



Who can grab more money.......the Jewish population or the Polish government?

If the former and you are querying the number of Jews murdered then , your view is anti-semitic!

Has anyone queried the huge numbers of Polish people killed?...20% of the population...can this ever be totally verified too?

Then why seek to query the number of Jews murdered?

Couple hundred thousands. No one is allowed to research it because it is against the law.



Jews, they even demanded money from the poles because we didnt sacrifice ourseleves to protect them.



Plenty people have, because it is not against the law.



Because they keep demanding money, and the polish and german governments are tired of handing it over to them.

So you are denying the holocaust..being pedantic....

So no-one is allowed reparations.....?