Jews...and their Polish experience

So.....its ok to put up Nazi/KK vids too.....?.....you're treading on thin ice ..Daffy...IMHO

Whether its an old man/group/organistion/political party....its all the same...unacceptable.

fair enough, IF, but lets say IF, I do not think IF will materialise


the point is you and i dont know yet about the video as its in polish - let him translate it and we will see.

as to saying im on thin ice :eyesrolling: :D

racism is unacceptable frank you know full well by know my views - and im willing to allow sparrow translate it and we KNOW its such rather than me modding what i suspect to be

Daffy....you tart....lol......still think......its not acceptable Daffy..........theres so much of it about......all to easy to propagate unacceptable views....

lol?

It is an "English speaking board" & I do speak English. There are other threads on this forum that are non-english. Such as the "Post funny polish video"-thread. Haven't heard any complaints yet. Could name a few other. Is it really the reason the video bothers you? Because for 8 seconds someone talks Polish? I doubt it.

Racism, religious hate, etc. Are part of this modern world. Either we could do like you & shut our eyes about it. Or we can open our mouths, post an example & argue/discuss what's wrong about.

What if someone actually agrees with what the person says in the video? I'm not going to defend him, but it's intresting to know why he thinks such way. And to debate with him. The thread after all is called "Jews and the Polish experience" Surely not all experiences are positive?

I live in a free world, I can post whatever I want on a forum as long as I abide by the laws of my country & the rules of the forum. If Daffy or Admin finds it inapropriate I'm sure they'd remove it.

Be less like an ostrich & more like a tiger.

Cheers.

Sparrow, can you translate the video's text for us please and we can understand it then. and determine if it falls under the nazi/KKK standard Frank suspects it to be.

and sparrow is not advocating racism - he is pointed out how it exists in the modern day. I think it is interesting to see it. If he WAS advocationg Racism that is not acceptable. But being aware of its existence is knowlegde and we can hopefully learn how to combat and prevent such unacceptable behavior. If it IS inciteful then of course it would be removed - but that remains to be seen

You can't possibly put those 2 together. That's an extreme overgeneralisation. Of course it wouldn't be OK to post Nazi propaganda!

Are you really that easily offended? I find this video a perfect example fitting in this thread.

It's about the Jewish experience in Poland.

How are jews feeling in Poland?
What is general view about Jews in Poland?
Why are they liked?
Why aren't they liked?
Are there still prejudices against them?

This old man still has, as he mumbles something incomprehensible to the reporter & then wanders off saying something about the bloody Jews. Am I propagating anti-semitism by doing this? Is it anything different from what you could see on TV News? Am I giving a platform for an anti-semitist to propagate his views vs. Jews here? I don't think so.

What if I want to get a discussion started about e.g. why the older generation of Poles still generally are wary / unfriendly towards Jews.



The person in this video could very well be an anti-semite or racist. We don't know. It's besides the point. What if I'd have said:

"I saw this video of an older Polish man, ranting on about the Jews. He said jews are x and y"

Would that be ok? I'm still quoting what he said. How can we discuss about anti-jewish feelings in Poland if we don't know what they are?

Racism & anti-semitism isn't going to go away by shutting our eyes & hoping it passes away

Hugs & kisses, Sparrow.



My Polish isn't good enough to understand the first part. At the end he goes on about rambling about "those bloody Jews" & runs off. You should ask someone with a better knowledge of Polish. I think it's insightful, opens up discussion (clearly ...) & slightly funny.

I've been reading this forum for months & posting since weeks. And I've seen more inciteful things than this.

It's up to you, if you think it's inapropriate, you call the shots.

However I think Frank is blowing this way out of context, as he makes accusations about it while not even having seen it or understanding what is being said.



Have you actually seen some of the other threads being posted here? Why aren't you as revolting about them? Perhaps it's easier to ask the mod to take down a video rather than going in discussion with the people "propagating unacceptable views" ? You're barking at the wrong tree, imho.

S, am sure you don't mean to propagate any views of intolerance of any kind....but by giving them air play is still too much....am not sticking my head in the sand, I know it exists and is common, but I don't want to be exposed to it any shape or form......

Eeeemmmmmmmmmmmm....barking aint my scene.............ok then...wooof....:)

Just no place for it on any board...IMHO.....

...... But It materialised in case of Jews and with the same conditions would materialise in case of Poles in UK or Ireland... That's my point...

---

This was going off topic so my reply is in the OT cafe

I understand your point, but I disagree on just one part. I think we should expose them & go in against them (if it's against your beliefs or philosophy).

In my opinion, it would be propaganda if I'd post a video of an organisation or political party unleashing it's extreme racial or religious views. This video isn't any different from a street interview you'd see on TV.

I've been living in a country where 10-15 years ago an extreme right-wing political party caused a "black sunday" by getting 5% of the votes & got into parliament. At that time they had extremely harsh views about women, immigrants, labour unions, gays, etc.. Some of their members weren't ashamed defending nazi's, denying holocaust & doing Roman salutes.

During all those years the media ignored them, not granting them any tv time or news papers interviews nothing. No political parties would even go in debate with them.

By doing so we have let them become the underdog, so they could say the establishment was trying to put them down. Gaining unprecedented popularity. Nowadays they get up to 40% of the votes in some regions.

I don't want to see any racial propaganda either, but I just don't think this video is. It's up to the mod :)

Frank: You seem to be transfixed on antisemitism in Poland and what happened before the war. What is it especially that you wish to know? I repeat...read your history from several sources...start with Norman Davies "The Heart of Europe" and educate yourself about Poland. When you are ready to talk about antisemitism in Europe before, during, and after the war, we'll talk again.

May I ask you a question. Frank? Why do you suppose there is so much antisemitism in the world before, during, and after the war? I would like to know the answer to that question myself...enlighten me!

Frank:...Check out this web site: holocaustforgotten.com/

"He thinks because I DO NOT espouse killing Jews I am Jewish"

I do not wish or call for the death of jews. As I said clearly I THINK THE NUMBERS ARE EXAGERATED. I have no care for your modern day bolshevik attuitude.

Polish...thanks for that........transfixed...aint quite the word.......but I do like to get feedback responses......not quite sure why the whole holocaust thing/WWII/Polish experience thing is interesting.......but I have learnt a bit, both from the board and another local history expert here at home..........

Frank, how about if you were interested in the Jews' attitudes towards the Polish people, their, Jews' horrific Polonophobia and terrible things the Jews have done to the Poles for the last hundred years, e.g. just after WWI, during WWII, during the Stalinist era, and through the spread of hate propaganda by the means of the mass media, including film? Would you be interested in these subjects, Frank? After all, it's a Polish, not Jewish forum, at least by name, isn't it?
:)

Thanks Sparrow for showing the clip, it's still got me chuckling.
Frank, you wanted to know people's opinions- the clip shows one man's, perhaps due to the reasons I gave in post184 - so why remove it?? It can be seen as wickedly humerous which would be lost in the English translation or offensive- it's quite OK for Jews to criticise Poles -yet no-one is allowed to poke fun at them.Chill out. Are they above criticism?

Apols Kruk, I meant Europe Awake.

I asked my brother who visited Auschwitz about the fingernail scrapings on the walls, he denied seeing any.Apparently the gas took hold too quickly for people to have the strength to do this.

Frank, are you a Jew ?

The trouble is Anielka they didnt just use Zyklon B which could take upto 15 mins depending on the size of the room to kill alll the people. At Majdanek near Lublin they hooked Tractors up to the gas chambers to kill them with carbon monoxide, in this case it could take up to 40 mins for them to die.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdanek

Greg....a more telling question is...are you an anti-semite?



Nope....nor are Poles or Irish......( who didn't exactly cover themselves in glory after WWII)...other nations.



So.....its all there own fault that they have been the victim of genocide....mass extermination..........?

Take it a step further..........so you are excusing Hitlers hatred of Polish people due to his Polonophobia/Slavicphobia.......ergo....this was enough for him to murder endless numbers of Poles............?.....me thinks you shot yourself...in both feet.

Frank asks me: 'So.....its all there own fault that they have been the victim of genocide....mass extermination..........?'

- Who do you mean by 'they'? And why are you asking whether it is all 'their own fasult,' etc.? Did I give reason for asking this question? What reason?

Re: 'so you are excusing Hitlers hatred of Polish people due to his Polonophobia/Slavicphobia...'

- Where would I 'excuse' Hitler? Please give the pertinent quote.

Re: 'ergo....this was enough for him to murder endless numbers of Poles............?'

- Do you mean that Hitler's 'Polonophobia/Slavicphobia' was the motive for his invading Poland and the harsh German occupation of the country?

re: 'me thinks you shot yourself...in both feet.'

-And based on what facts would you think so?

Well, Frank, but regarding my questions from my previous posting. You haven't answered them. Would you be interested in the Jewish Polonophobia and anti-Polonism at least as much as in the alleged Polish 'anti-semitism' (actually, many Poles seem not to have anything against the Arabs)? Would you go to a Jewish forum and inquire about it as directly as you do about 'anti-semitism' on this forum? If not, why not?
;)

P....looking at all of the posts form Poles on the board, its an extremely sensitive issue, plus seems unresolved, still something that needs tackled......

Only because Poland had the biggest Jewish pop. in Europe, they appear to have gone through periods of both being accepted then discriminated against then anti-semitic laws being passed when Nazis were ruling Germany.

Plus the fact that Hitler so detested the Jews and also wanted to punish Poland for daring to give them a country to live in and effectively looked upon Poles as not being disimilar to Jews....ergo......exterminate as many of them as possible too.

I have no bone to pick with Polish people....I have visted your country several times, I have employed a number of your fellow countrymen...no problems whatsoever....unlike other European countries I have visited.........so please don't take my sometimes naive/insensitive enquiries as being anything other than that.

Frank, no kidding that when a group has been hatefully branded for a hundred years, it's 'an extremely sensitive issue' to its members. We have been branded by the Jewish people in the most hateful way imaginable as Jew-haters; at the same time their horrific crimes against the Poles have been played down by them and their allies.

Do you want to learn about the Jewish racism against the Poles, Frank?

Why not..?....not got a closed mind.......want to hear all views...but I will make my own mind up Puzz....:)

Frank, I know you will make up your mind, and I respect that.
:)

Thanks ukpolska for info on Majdanek, I'm still doubtful about the fingernail scrapings, however this a detail, these people were exterminated.


Of course not but since you brought it up, the Jews created a deep resentment & angst towards themselves amongst the European community-the posts have given ample info- in pre WW2, which you iniated in this thread: this was to their detriment. Of interest to me is that it is the American Jews- not the ones living in Poland, who continue to whinge about anti-Semitism of Poles. Recently, Hilary Clinton "asked" Poland, an occupied country, for restitution of supposed stolen art works, loot, etc during WW2- on behalf of Jews- so who is she taking back handers from?



In your opinion, what should have the Poles done or not done, under a Communist regime in your opinion to cover themselves in glory in this period?



Since the Jew in your opinion is not above criticism, why the dummy spit about Sparrow's video?


Of course not but since you brought it up, the Jews created a deep resentment & angst towards themselves amongst the European community-the posts have given ample info- in pre WW2, which you iniated in this thread: this was to their detriment. Of interest to me is that it is the American Jews- not the ones living in Poland, who continue to whinge about anti-Semitism of Poles. Recently, Hilary Clinton "asked" Poland, an occupied country, for restitution of supposed stolen art works, loot, etc during WW2- on behalf of Jews- so who is she taking back handers from?



In your opinion, what should have the Poles done or not done, under a Communist regime in your opinion to cover themselves in glory in this period?



Since the Jew in your opinion is not above criticism, why the dummy spit about Sparrow's video?

Mis-understood me....that was a reference to Ireland taking in a number of Nazis after the war........not good.

Never spat a dummy in my life.........but could learn to....:)

No...

BTW Most of Jews are anti-semites as their cousins Arabs are also Semits.

I don't think so, you included Poles in your sentence in post#260.

Never spat a dummy in my life......... [/quote]

So, what was with the"racist" protests re the clip, and removing it?

Ok....my sentence construction was poor.........I meant the Irish.....



Basically...if there was some old guy spouting anti Jewish rubbish I didn't want to watch it....not interested in how reasonable or mild it was.....or if it was anti Polish or Irish...etc...still not interested.....

Jews... and their Polish experience... This is an awful broad topic. But Ok, lets try to analyze it.

Everyone that says that Polish-Jewish relationship in the past was an ideal one is, to put it very mildly, being naive. However, every person that tries to compare Polish and German attitude towards Jews during and before WWII is just being plain biased and nasty.

Yes, there were polish Anti-Semites before WWII, just as they were present in every country in Europe at that time. And yes, I know about few "pogroms" during the times of German occupation in which polish people took part, Jedwabne being probably the most known one, although historians still don't know if it wasn't a nazi provocation, but is this enough to call entire nation anti-semitic?

November 1942 - the whole population of village Obórki was killed for helping Jews. ( 22 families killed - only two survivors). The village was then burned down.

6 XII 1942 - village Rakówko - 10 people burned alive for helping Jews.

13 III 1943 - Przewrotne village - 30 people killed for hiding Jews.

10 VI 1943 - Hucisko village - 21 people killed.

28 VI 1943 - Cegłowo 21 people.

18 IX 1943 - 4 related with each other families, together with children 22 people.

February 1944 - Huta Pieniecka - 1000 people killed for hiding Jews.

6 XII 1942 - 21 people were burned alive for hiding Jews in Ciepielowo Stare: Władysław Kosior(age 42), his wife karolina (40), their 6 children: Aleksander (18), Tadeusz(16), Władysława (14). Mieczysław (12), Irena (10), Adam (6); Adam Kowalski (42), his wife bBrinisława (40), and their 5 children: Janina (16), Zofia (12), Stefan(6), Henryk (4), Tadeusz(1); Piotr Obuchiewicz (58) and his wife Helena (35), and their 4 kids Władysław (6), Zofia (3), Janina (2) and one infant.

The list goes on.... At least 50 000 Poles lost their lives trying to help Jews during the WWII. Further more Poles are the biggest group in the list of people who were helping Jews during the WWII, The righteous among the nations" created by the "Yad Vashem Instytute" and only polish resistance had created a group in their organization responsible for helping the Jewish people. Not bad for an anti-semitic nation, innit.

The question is, would you frank be able to sacrifice not only your life, but also the life of your loved ones, for helping out some strangers. Is 50 000 dead people enough to say that a nation was not anti-semitic?

After the Germans conquered France, there were thousands of Jews send to concentration camps from Paris ad other French cities, something that never took place in occupied Poland, although the condition here was incomparably harder, and yet it is Poland that is being accused here on being anti-semitic. Strange isn’t it?

PS: Frank, don't take it personal. I understand that you are just being curious, and I would never accuse you of being polonophobic. Actually, you impress me, as it looks that you really are interested in Polish history and Poland in general. For that I salute you. Its juts that it really saddens me to hear that those allegations are still well and alive in Western Europe.

Matyjasz, Great info are there any books in English you know where one could read more about those events you described?

And how many Hollywood movies or at least western books about this ? 0 probably.