Polaron - Get Polish Citizenship / EU Passport now!Witamy, Guest  |  Members

The Ultimate Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives

Poland and Polish Community
Home / Language /answers: 34 - page 1 of 2

Mam silnego kaca! Why is this genitive/dopełniacz?

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   Mar 18, 2012, 03:43pm  #1

Mam silnego kaca! Why is this genitive/dopełniacz? Maybe I am mistaken?


gumishu Threads: 18
Posts: 4,480
Joined: Apr 6, 2009
  ♂   Mar 18, 2012, 03:56pm  #2

it's just that genetive and accusative are the same for some nouns - all virile masculine nouns and a whole group of other masculine nouns (but only in singular - among them are all masculine living things (the gender of noun matters not the actual gender))

Polonius3 Threads: 1,153
Posts: 7,027
Joined: Apr 11, 2008
  ♂   Mar 18, 2012, 04:01pm  #3

One sometimers hears: 'Daj młotka!' Is that OK?

gumishu Threads: 18
Posts: 4,480
Joined: Apr 6, 2009
  ♂   Mar 18, 2012, 04:48pm  #4

sure it is ok - because it creates no ambiguity - it;s actualy broadening of virile noun type of declination onto other masculine nouns

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   Mar 18, 2012, 05:22pm  #5

gumishu:
it's just that genetive and accusative are the same for some nouns - all virile masculine nouns and a whole group of other masculine nouns (but only in singular - among them are all masculine living things (the gender of noun matters not the actual gender))


Thanks Gumishu.

Ziutek Threads: 6
Posts: 94
Joined: Feb 23, 2012
  ♂   Edited by: Ziutek  Mar 19, 2012, 01:47am  #6

There is a list on page 78 of this

polish.slavic.pitt.edu/grammar.pdf

You can also add "iPhone" and "email" !

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   Mar 19, 2012, 01:53am  #7

Ziutek:
You can also add „iPhone" and „email" !


Super dzięki.

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   May 8, 2012, 10:26pm  #8

Przy okazji - wydaje nam się, czy ta dziewczyna ma zeza?

To be honest I still don't get it, I don't understand the gramatical reason.

Mam kota. Kot is a living thing and it is a masculine noun, even if the cat itself is feminine, I still use: Mam kota.

Pomysł, not a living thing.
Mam pomysł.

Zez is not a living thing.
Mam zeza. If I was to follow the pomysł example it should be Mam zez.

ona ma zeza?

I found Mila Kunis pic when searching for zez etc.

Zazulka Threads: 4
Posts: 218
Joined: Aug 13, 2011
  ♀   Edited by: Zazulka  May 9, 2012, 03:06am  #9

catsoldier:
Przy okazji - wydaje nam się, czy ta dziewczyna ma zeza?

To be honest I still don't get it, I don't understand the gramatical reason.

Mam kota. Kot is a living thing and it is a masculine noun, even if the cat itself is feminine, I still use: Mam kota.

Pomysł, not a living thing.
Mam pomysł.

Zez is not a living thing.
Mam zeza. If I was to follow the pomysł example it should be Mam zez.


I don't why buy most health related masculine nouns behave like virile masculine nouns. Mam raka (tfu, tfu), mam mięsaka, mam syfa, mam tluszczaka, mam guza, mam siniaka..... but mam odcisk, mam łupież, mam zarost. Perhaps somebody smart here can explain it.

But to confuse you even more: mam Mercedesa, mam Fiata, mam Volkswagena ( I guess some people think a car is a living thing..lol).
Also some mushrooms (why? , I have no clue) Znalazłam prawdziwka, znalazłam podgrzybka, ma¶laka.

Masz papierosa? Tak, mam papierosa.

Zatańczymy poloneza, a moze walca lub foxtrota?

I think I confused you enough. You are welcome :)

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   May 9, 2012, 09:13pm  #10

Zazulka:
I think I confused you enough. You are welcome :)


Thanks, it is good to know that there are many more of these nouns out there. I am sure that I will come across it again and come back to it.

pawian Threads: 162
Posts: 8,669
Joined: May 30, 2008
  ♂   May 9, 2012, 09:27pm  #11

catsoldier:
Mam silnego kaca!



I am not sure about the rest of Poland but in Krakow we don`t say silnego - strong. It sounds very unusual to me.

strzyga Threads: 4
Posts: 1,277
Joined: Apr 30, 2008
  ♀   May 9, 2012, 09:38pm  #12

catsoldier:
Thanks, it is good to know that there are many more of these nouns out there.


Some foods: jem banana, pomidora, arbuza, kotleta, p±czka.

But: jem tort, szaszłyk. Torta and szaszłyka sound like bad, sloppy language.

I really can't tell you why. It might have something to do with declination patterns. I think Gumishu had some theory on it once.

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   May 9, 2012, 09:50pm  #13

pawian:
I am not sure about the rest of Poland but in Krakow we don`t say silnego - strong. It sounds very unusual to me.

I can't remember now where I got it, but it is probably from the internet. Thanks.

strzyga:
Some foods: jem banana, pomidora, arbuza, kotleta, p±czka.But: jem tort, szaszłyk. Torta and szaszłyka sound like bad, sloppy language.I really can't tell you why. It might have something to do with declination patterns. I think Gumishu had some theory on it once.

You must be a native speaker of Polish if you know how it should be but not the grammar. For me it is the same with English, I know how it should be but not why. :-) When I am "learning" Polish I often have to learn a little bit about English grammar also.

Thanks Strzyga.

pawian Threads: 162
Posts: 8,669
Joined: May 30, 2008
  ♂   Edited by: pawian  May 9, 2012, 10:08pm  #14

catsoldier:
I can't remember now where I got it, but it is probably from the internet. Thanks.



Yes, it is there, but almost all links direct you to a disco polo song by MC Makler. They used silnego to get a rhyme for browara zimnego - cold brew.




Normally you would say: straszny, potworny, potężny, zajebi¶cie mocny. These expressions are much stronger than silny for a good reason - unless the hangover is splitting and rips your head into pieces, it is useless for Poles to talk about it - waste of time.



PS. BTW, a nice song. :):):):):):)

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   May 9, 2012, 10:42pm  #15

pawian:
Normally you would say: straszny, potworny, potężny, zajebi¶cie mocny.

Thanks Pawian, the cats are nice.

pawian Threads: 162
Posts: 8,669
Joined: May 30, 2008
  ♂   May 9, 2012, 10:43pm  #16

catsoldier:
Thanks Pawian, the cats are nice.


Yes, isn`t it? :):):):)

I forgot about one collocation: ogromny - immense.

strzyga Threads: 4
Posts: 1,277
Joined: Apr 30, 2008
  ♀   May 9, 2012, 10:49pm  #17

pawian:
It sounds very unusual to me.

In Lublin it sounds ok...

catsoldier:
When I am "learning" Polish I often have to learn a little bit about English grammar also.

oh yes, that helps a lot. at least the basic knowledge of grammatical categories. people who don't know anything about grammar of any language struggle a lot more and have to do double work.
still, the grammar for native speakers is different than for foreign learners. different scope. I'd probably go crazy if I had to learn all the declension patterns of Polish by heart, from a book. I gave up on German when I was supposed to learn the article + adjective + noun declension patterns :)

pawian Threads: 162
Posts: 8,669
Joined: May 30, 2008
  ♂   May 9, 2012, 10:54pm  #18

strzyga:
In Lublin it sounds ok...


Thanks for reminding me. I have to visit this beautiful Polish city at last.

patrick Threads: 8
Posts: 120
Joined: Aug 3, 2011
  ♂   May 9, 2012, 11:12pm  #19

Maybe it's just an exception like "Kupiłem Forda." or "Zamów mi shake'a". It's language after all and is full of exceptions.

Lyzko     May 9, 2012, 11:47pm  #20

Strzyga dear, you ain't seen nothin' 'till you've tried Icelandic:-)

At least among extant European languages, it's considered by linguists to be even tougher than Basque, Welsh or Lithuanian, precisely because of its inlfectional exceptions and quixotic vowel mutations, even within the same declension pattern and noun class!!!!

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   May 9, 2012, 11:50pm  #21

patrick:
Maybe it's just an exception like "Kupiłem Forda." or "Zamów mi shake'a". It's language after all and is full of exceptions.

Hi Patrick, as a native speaker you know when to use Forda and not Ford because it just sounds right but a learner would need a rule or be told that there is no rule. Thanks anyway.

strzyga:
people who don't know anything about grammar of any language struggle a lot more

Yes I struggle because of this.

strzyga Threads: 4
Posts: 1,277
Joined: Apr 30, 2008
  ♀   May 10, 2012, 12:38am  #22

Lyzko:
Strzyga dear, you ain't seen nothin' 'till you've tried Icelandic:-)

I suppose so. but no, I'm not aspiring to study Icelandic, at least not in this lifetime, thank you very much. I've got enough challenges in my life as it is.
although I admit I have a soft spot for Welsh. maybe when I'm eighty-something and have lots of time on my hands. then I'm going to be sitting in a corner mumbling to myself something reminiscent of these llachllqellwach sounds. at this age, you're allowed to go a little crazy :)

catsoldier:
when to use Forda and not Ford

just to get it straight, the car makes should not be capitalized in Polish. it's ford, mercedes, toyota.

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   May 10, 2012, 01:14am  #23

strzyga:
just to get it straight, the car makes should not be capitalized in Polish. it's ford, mercedes, toyota.

Thanks.

patrick Threads: 8
Posts: 120
Joined: Aug 3, 2011
  ♂   May 10, 2012, 10:47am  #24

catsoldier:
Hi Patrick, as a native speaker you know when to use Forda and not Ford because it just sounds right but a learner would need a rule or be told that there is no rule. Thanks anyway.


I'm not a native speaker, but my Polish Polish teacher in the States said that cars take genitive. If I were a native speaker, I wouldn't have mead the error that strzyga pointed out.

A Polish friend in Poland said that while ordering food genitive is also used, although I don't know if I believe that. She gave me, however, the example of "Zamow mi shake'a". Maybe it's just genitive for fast food restaurants. :)

strzyga Threads: 4
Posts: 1,277
Joined: Apr 30, 2008
  ♀   May 10, 2012, 01:09pm  #25

patrick:
If I were a native speaker, I wouldn't have mead the error that strzyga pointed out.

Many Poles make this error too, treating the makes as proper names. Well they're not.

patrick:
A Polish friend in Poland said that while ordering food genitive is also used, although I don't know if I believe that. She gave me, however, the example of "Zamow mi shake'a". Maybe it's just genitive for fast food restaurants. :)

Ordering or eating, it doesn't matter, it's just that some foods take the genitive and some don't. Zamów mi shake'a, hamburgera, loda, kebaba, drinka, kurczaka, but: zamów mi sok, napój, barszczyk. Anyway, uncountable nouns don't take Genitive.

Alligator Threads: -
Posts: 342
Joined: Dec 15, 2010
  ♂   May 10, 2012, 06:48pm  #26

patrick:
I'm not a native speaker, but my Polish Polish teacher in the States said that cars take genitive.

strzyga:
Ordering or eating, it doesn't matter, it's just that some foods take the genitive and some don't.

In this case, as in cases listed in previous posts we use partial genitive (dopełniacz cz±stkowy).
Partial genitive is used when you talk about indefinite part of a whole or about something abstract.
When you talk about something definite and considered as a whole, you use accusative.

FUZZYWICKETS Threads: 8
Posts: 2,261
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
  ♂   May 10, 2012, 07:15pm  #27

The general rule I use is if something is inanimate and doesn't sound Polish, then conjugate.

Chce drink'a, kebab'a, hamburger'a, SMS'a, etc.

It doesn't explain things like pomidora but more often than not, non-Polish words are conjugated like this.

I always got a kick out of certain animate conjugations like "kot" and "pies". You conjugate "kot" with "Mam kota" or "pies" with "Mam psa", but once you pluralise it, it no longer gets conjugated:

"Mam psy"

Bizarre how case is sometimes dependent on quantity.

catsoldier Threads: 95
Posts: 766
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   May 10, 2012, 07:29pm  #28

Alligator:
In this case, as in cases listed in previous posts we use partial genitive (dopełniacz cz±stkowy).Partial genitive is used when you talk about indefinite part of a whole or about something abstract.When you talk about something definite and considered as a whole, you use accusative.


I must read more about this but it looks like the answer.
Thanks alligator.

Alligator Threads: -
Posts: 342
Joined: Dec 15, 2010
  ♂   Edited by: Alligator  May 10, 2012, 07:33pm  #29

FUZZYWICKETS:
"Mam psy"

It is conjugated. Psy is in accusative.

FUZZYWICKETS Threads: 8
Posts: 2,261
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
  ♂   May 10, 2012, 10:06pm  #30

Alligator:
It is conjugated. Psy is in accusative.


there's no change, whether you say, "Mam psy" or "To sa psy". it's the plural form of "pies" in both cases.

there's a declension with the singular form, pies becomes psa: "Mam jednego psa", but "Mam dwa psy". no declension in the plural form.



Home / Language / Unanswered [this forum]

Mam silnego kaca! Why is this genitive/dopełniacz?

  Important: If you post a link to a non-English source, please ALWAYS summarize / translate the relevant parts into English!  

To post as guest, enter a temporary and unique username (without password) or login and post as a member.