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Mam silnego kaca! Why is this genitive/dopełniacz?


catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
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18 Mar 2012  #1

Mam silnego kaca! Why is this genitive/dopełniacz? Maybe I am mistaken?
gumishu Activity: 9 / 3,774
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18 Mar 2012  #2

it's just that genetive and accusative are the same for some nouns - all virile masculine nouns and a whole group of other masculine nouns (but only in singular - among them are all masculine living things (the gender of noun matters not the actual gender))
Polonius3 Activity: 935 / 7,116
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18 Mar 2012  #3

One sometimers hears: 'Daj młotka!' Is that OK?
gumishu Activity: 9 / 3,774
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18 Mar 2012  #4

sure it is ok - because it creates no ambiguity - it;s actualy broadening of virile noun type of declination onto other masculine nouns
catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
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18 Mar 2012  #5

it's just that genetive and accusative are the same for some nouns - all virile masculine nouns and a whole group of other masculine nouns (but only in singular - among them are all masculine living things (the gender of noun matters not the actual gender))


Thanks Gumishu.
Ziutek Activity: 6 / 97
Joined: 23 Feb 2012 ♂
 
19 Mar 2012  #6

There is a list on page 78 of this

polish.slavic.pitt.edu/grammar.pdf

You can also add "iPhone" and "email" !
catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 ♂
 
19 Mar 2012  #7

You can also add „iPhone" and „email" !


Super dzięki.

Przy okazji - wydaje nam się, czy ta dziewczyna ma zeza?

To be honest I still don't get it, I don't understand the gramatical reason.

Mam kota. Kot is a living thing and it is a masculine noun, even if the cat itself is feminine, I still use: Mam kota.

Pomysł, not a living thing.
Mam pomysł.

Zez is not a living thing.
Mam zeza. If I was to follow the pomysł example it should be Mam zez.

ona ma zeza?

I found Mila Kunis pic when searching for zez etc.
Zazulka Activity: 3 / 129
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 ♀
 
9 May 2012  #8

I don't why buy most health related masculine nouns behave like virile masculine nouns. Mam raka (tfu, tfu), mam mięsaka, mam syfa, mam tluszczaka, mam guza, mam siniaka..... but mam odcisk, mam łupież, mam zarost. Perhaps somebody smart here can explain it.

But to confuse you even more: mam Mercedesa, mam Fiata, mam Volkswagena ( I guess some people think a car is a living thing..lol).
Also some mushrooms (why? , I have no clue) Znalazłam prawdziwka, znalazłam podgrzybka, ma¶laka.

Masz papierosa? Tak, mam papierosa.

Zatańczymy poloneza, a moze walca lub foxtrota?

I think I confused you enough. You are welcome :)
catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 ♂
 
9 May 2012  #9

I think I confused you enough. You are welcome :)


Thanks, it is good to know that there are many more of these nouns out there. I am sure that I will come across it again and come back to it.
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
Joined: 30 May 2008 ♂
 
9 May 2012  #10

Mam silnego kaca!



I am not sure about the rest of Poland but in Krakow we don`t say silnego - strong. It sounds very unusual to me.
strzyga Activity: 3 / 1,019
Joined: 30 Apr 2008 ♀
 
9 May 2012  #11

Thanks, it is good to know that there are many more of these nouns out there.


Some foods: jem banana, pomidora, arbuza, kotleta, p±czka.

But: jem tort, szaszłyk. Torta and szaszłyka sound like bad, sloppy language.

I really can't tell you why. It might have something to do with declination patterns. I think Gumishu had some theory on it once.
catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 ♂
 
9 May 2012  #12

I am not sure about the rest of Poland but in Krakow we don`t say silnego - strong. It sounds very unusual to me.

I can't remember now where I got it, but it is probably from the internet. Thanks.

Some foods: jem banana, pomidora, arbuza, kotleta, p±czka.But: jem tort, szaszłyk. Torta and szaszłyka sound like bad, sloppy language.I really can't tell you why. It might have something to do with declination patterns. I think Gumishu had some theory on it once.

You must be a native speaker of Polish if you know how it should be but not the grammar. For me it is the same with English, I know how it should be but not why. :-) When I am "learning" Polish I often have to learn a little bit about English grammar also.

Thanks Strzyga.
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
Joined: 30 May 2008 ♂
 
9 May 2012  #13

I can't remember now where I got it, but it is probably from the internet. Thanks.



Yes, it is there, but almost all links direct you to a disco polo song by MC Makler. They used silnego to get a rhyme for browara zimnego - cold brew.




Normally you would say: straszny, potworny, potężny, zajebi¶cie mocny. These expressions are much stronger than silny for a good reason - unless the hangover is splitting and rips your head into pieces, it is useless for Poles to talk about it - waste of time.



PS. BTW, a nice song. :):):):):):)
catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 ♂
 
9 May 2012  #14

Normally you would say: straszny, potworny, potężny, zajebi¶cie mocny.

Thanks Pawian, the cats are nice.
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
Joined: 30 May 2008 ♂
 
9 May 2012  #15

Yes, isn`t it? :):):):)

I forgot about one collocation: ogromny - immense.
strzyga Activity: 3 / 1,019
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9 May 2012  #16

It sounds very unusual to me.

In Lublin it sounds ok...

When I am "learning" Polish I often have to learn a little bit about English grammar also.

oh yes, that helps a lot. at least the basic knowledge of grammatical categories. people who don't know anything about grammar of any language struggle a lot more and have to do double work.
still, the grammar for native speakers is different than for foreign learners. different scope. I'd probably go crazy if I had to learn all the declension patterns of Polish by heart, from a book. I gave up on German when I was supposed to learn the article + adjective + noun declension patterns :)
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
Joined: 30 May 2008 ♂
 
9 May 2012  #17

In Lublin it sounds ok...


Thanks for reminding me. I have to visit this beautiful Polish city at last.
patrick Activity: 6 / 114
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9 May 2012  #18

Maybe it's just an exception like "Kupiłem Forda." or "Zamów mi shake'a". It's language after all and is full of exceptions.
Lyzko  
9 May 2012  #19

Strzyga dear, you ain't seen nothin' 'till you've tried Icelandic:-)

At least among extant European languages, it's considered by linguists to be even tougher than Basque, Welsh or Lithuanian, precisely because of its inlfectional exceptions and quixotic vowel mutations, even within the same declension pattern and noun class!!!!
catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 ♂
 
9 May 2012  #20

Maybe it's just an exception like "Kupiłem Forda." or "Zamów mi shake'a". It's language after all and is full of exceptions.

Hi Patrick, as a native speaker you know when to use Forda and not Ford because it just sounds right but a learner would need a rule or be told that there is no rule. Thanks anyway.

people who don't know anything about grammar of any language struggle a lot more

Yes I struggle because of this.
strzyga Activity: 3 / 1,019
Joined: 30 Apr 2008 ♀
 
10 May 2012  #21

Strzyga dear, you ain't seen nothin' 'till you've tried Icelandic:-)

I suppose so. but no, I'm not aspiring to study Icelandic, at least not in this lifetime, thank you very much. I've got enough challenges in my life as it is.
although I admit I have a soft spot for Welsh. maybe when I'm eighty-something and have lots of time on my hands. then I'm going to be sitting in a corner mumbling to myself something reminiscent of these llachllqellwach sounds. at this age, you're allowed to go a little crazy :)

when to use Forda and not Ford

just to get it straight, the car makes should not be capitalized in Polish. it's ford, mercedes, toyota.
catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 ♂
 
10 May 2012  #22

just to get it straight, the car makes should not be capitalized in Polish. it's ford, mercedes, toyota.

Thanks.
patrick Activity: 6 / 114
Joined: 3 Aug 2011 ♂
 
10 May 2012  #23

Hi Patrick, as a native speaker you know when to use Forda and not Ford because it just sounds right but a learner would need a rule or be told that there is no rule. Thanks anyway.


I'm not a native speaker, but my Polish Polish teacher in the States said that cars take genitive. If I were a native speaker, I wouldn't have mead the error that strzyga pointed out.

A Polish friend in Poland said that while ordering food genitive is also used, although I don't know if I believe that. She gave me, however, the example of "Zamow mi shake'a". Maybe it's just genitive for fast food restaurants. :)
strzyga Activity: 3 / 1,019
Joined: 30 Apr 2008 ♀
 
10 May 2012  #24

If I were a native speaker, I wouldn't have mead the error that strzyga pointed out.

Many Poles make this error too, treating the makes as proper names. Well they're not.

A Polish friend in Poland said that while ordering food genitive is also used, although I don't know if I believe that. She gave me, however, the example of "Zamow mi shake'a". Maybe it's just genitive for fast food restaurants. :)

Ordering or eating, it doesn't matter, it's just that some foods take the genitive and some don't. Zamów mi shake'a, hamburgera, loda, kebaba, drinka, kurczaka, but: zamów mi sok, napój, barszczyk. Anyway, uncountable nouns don't take Genitive.
Alligator Activity: - / 273
Joined: 15 Dec 2010 ♂
 
10 May 2012  #25

I'm not a native speaker, but my Polish Polish teacher in the States said that cars take genitive.

Ordering or eating, it doesn't matter, it's just that some foods take the genitive and some don't.

In this case, as in cases listed in previous posts we use partial genitive (dopełniacz cz±stkowy).
Partial genitive is used when you talk about indefinite part of a whole or about something abstract.
When you talk about something definite and considered as a whole, you use accusative.
FUZZYWICKETS Activity: 8 / 1,897
Joined: 3 Nov 2009 ♂
 
10 May 2012  #26

The general rule I use is if something is inanimate and doesn't sound Polish, then conjugate.

Chce drink'a, kebab'a, hamburger'a, SMS'a, etc.

It doesn't explain things like pomidora but more often than not, non-Polish words are conjugated like this.

I always got a kick out of certain animate conjugations like "kot" and "pies". You conjugate "kot" with "Mam kota" or "pies" with "Mam psa", but once you pluralise it, it no longer gets conjugated:

"Mam psy"

Bizarre how case is sometimes dependent on quantity.
catsoldier Activity: 79 / 603
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 ♂
 
10 May 2012  #27

In this case, as in cases listed in previous posts we use partial genitive (dopełniacz cz±stkowy).Partial genitive is used when you talk about indefinite part of a whole or about something abstract.When you talk about something definite and considered as a whole, you use accusative.


I must read more about this but it looks like the answer.
Thanks alligator.
Alligator Activity: - / 273
Joined: 15 Dec 2010 ♂
 
10 May 2012  #28

"Mam psy"

It is conjugated. Psy is in accusative.
FUZZYWICKETS Activity: 8 / 1,897
Joined: 3 Nov 2009 ♂
 
10 May 2012  #29

there's no change, whether you say, "Mam psy" or "To sa psy". it's the plural form of "pies" in both cases.

there's a declension with the singular form, pies becomes psa: "Mam jednego psa", but "Mam dwa psy". no declension in the plural form.
Alligator Activity: - / 273
Joined: 15 Dec 2010 ♂
 
10 May 2012  #30

there's a declension with the singular form, pies becomes psa: "Mam jednego psa"

Because accusative of virile (męskożywotny) singular noun takes the form of genetive.
but "Mam dwa psy". no declension in the plural form

Accusative of virile plural noun takes form of nominative. It is declinated.
...just another example of how easy Polish language is...



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Mam silnego kaca! Why is this genitive/dopełniacz?
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