boletus Threads: 46
Joined: Apr 13, 2011
Edited by: boletus Jul 14, 2012, 11:11pm #88
hmmm... I think this 'owicz" suggested rather town dwellers [like -in Sebastian Klonowic/z]
Wrong example. He was a son of Jan Klon
- a tenant of a farm and mill on Orla river - and Anna Pietrzałek. Not a dweller of town of Klonów or something.
It wasn't that source, but maybe that's just one more source that proves my point.
This proves nothing. You just need to learn to listen a bit. Did you miss my rant about Possessive Adjective
forms? Let me try it again.
Some Slavonic languages use this form to a lesser of greater extent. Have you ever noticed how Czech female surnames are formed? Their -OVÁ (Polish corresponding form is -OWA) form originally meant to express possession, as wives used to belong to their husbands. Now this form is used as a general feminine inflexion of male surnames.
Novák ==> Novák-ová (implicitely Novák's wife or daughter)
Haneą ==> Haneą-ová
Bartoą ==> Bartoą-ová
Havlík ==> Havlík-ová
Krk ==> Krk-ová
©lytr ==> ©lytr-ová
Kučera ==> Kučer-ová
Homolka => Homolk-ová
Housle ==> Housl-ová
Mičko ==> Mičk-ová
©týblo ==> ©týbl-ová
Similar naming pattern used to exist in Polish as well:
Zaj±c ==> Zaj±c-owa
Wróbel => Wróbl-owa (or Wróbelowa)
So, I do not see any Jewiness in here so far. Do you?
STEP 2: Combining "son of" (possessive form) and "little one"
As another example, let us turn our attention to surnames of some South Slavic groups such as Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, and Bosniaks. They traditionally end with the suffixes "-ič", "-ić" and "-vić" (often transliterated to English and other western languages as "ic", "ich", "vic" or "vich". The v is added in case the name to which "-ić" follows ends on a vowel, to avoid double vowels with the "i" in "-ić".) which are diminutives meaning "a little one"
indicating descent. Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian also use the possessive form "son of"
(or "daughter of"), indicated by -OV.
So for example, if your ancestor was named Petr (Petar), his son could be named Petr-ov (son of Petr), whose son in turn could bear surname Petr-ov-ić - a little one born to the son of Petr.
On the other hand, Petr-ić means Peter's little one.
Stefan => Stefan-ov-ić
Stefan => Stefan-ow-ić.
Kovač (blacksmith) => Kovač-ević (could not use Kovač-ić according to the above pronunciation rule)
Bosniak Muslim names follow the same formation pattern but are usually derived from proper names of Islamic origin, often combining archaic Islamic or feudal Turkish titles i.e.
Hadľi-hafiz-beg-ov-ić etc. Oh, no, Muslims use the -owicz as well.? :-)
Not us. We owned a farm in Lipsk, and Jewish non-nobles would've never married gentile nobles. The Andrulewiczes and Morgiewiczes married Chernetskis and Danilowiczes.
You are way off topic. Pay attention, girl. We are discussing your (erroneous) claim that surnames ending in -owicz indicate Jewish origin. This has nothing to do with a farm in Lipsk, etc.
"...In Eastern Europe where most Ashkenazic Jews lived, governments often used Slavic translations of the Yiddish surnames...The 'owicz' ending would have varied spellings in other Eastern European languages...German scribes [would use] 'owitz'... "
Not sure if that's my misinterpreting what it says but it seems to be in a book about Jewish people's names, so... maybe the endings/suffix "owicz" is of Jewish heritage.
Nowhere it says that -owicz suffix indicate Jewishness.
On the list of typical Jewish surnames, en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Jewish_surnames there is a short list of -owicz names:
Aron-owicz (from Aaron)
Abram-owicz (from Abraham)
Dawyd-owicz (from David)
Josel-ewicz (from Joseph)
Szlom-owicz (from Szloma, Solomon)
Lejb-owicz (from Loeb, Loew, Leib, Loewe (lion))
Alper-owicz (from German Heilbron, Halpern, Halperin, Heilbronn)
Kantor-owicz (from kantor)
This is a very, very small list - only 12 or so surnames, out of hundreds and hundreds listed there. And what do they have in common? They are mostly patronymic names, made of Hebrew or Yiddish first names - following standard forming rules for Slavonic languages.
And yet Nickidewbear concluded that "-owicz" (...) was meant to denote Jewishness. Like what it supposed to be, a hidden handshake? It's not -owicz that tells the story of the surname origin, is the root of the surname that clearly indicates the Jewishness.
I just extracted from a long list of 20,000 surnames, of people currently living in Poland, the list of names ending in -owicz. That's 337 surnames of this pattern. By Nickidewbear's claim all of them must be Jewish surnames? Can she prove it? Of course she cannot. Most of them are patronymic names, stemming from Polish, Belarusian and Ukrainian given names. Yes, and a precious few seem like being of Jewish or German origin:
Dawidowicz, Abramowicz, Lewkowicz, Naumowicz, Majchrowicz, Lewandowicz, Lemanowicz, Frydrychowicz, Samsonowicz, Bursztynowicz, Moszkowicz, Kantorowicz, Żydowicz, Afeltowicz, Arentowicz, Hermanowicz, Kurantowicz, Majerowicz, Achramowicz, Lazarowicz, Berkowicz, Melerowicz, Jarmołowicz, Serafinowicz,
Oh, well, 24 names of possible candidates for Jewishness (there might more, but I have no time for close examination). Well, there are also some 23 Ruthenian/Lithuanian/Tatar names with this pattern: Wa¶kowicz, Fedorowicz, Fiedorowicz, Daniłowicz, Litwinowicz, Semenowicz, Osipowicz, Trochimowicz, Mi¶kowicz, Walentynowicz, Fiłonowicz, Rusinowicz, Tatarowicz, Bytrymowicz, Iwanowicz, Prokopowicz, Sidorowicz, Popowicz, Ławrynowicz, Ostapowicz, Bohdanowicz, Wołkowicz, Zubowicz,
So we still have to allocate some 270 surnames or so. What to do with the given names that sound Polish, or are not formed from given names, such as Kotowicz (from Kot, this from kot, a cat)?
Wójt (village mayor), Sak (bag), Karp (carp), W±s (moustache), Przybył (newcomer), Wojnar (war maker), Stary (old), Grab (hornbeam), Ruta (rue), Obuch (ax head), Dziad (lout), Ułan (uhlan), Kos (blackbird), Kot (cat), Bednarz (cooper), Grzywna (fine), Kłos (corn ear), D±b (oak), Kiełb (mullet), Łuk (bow), Drozd (thrush), Baran (ram), Kozioł (goat), Broda (chin), Bober (beaver), Mróz (frost), Ogród (garden), Miech (bellow), Kret (mole), Rak (crayfish), Lis (fox), Orzeł (eagle), Groch (pea), Bób (broad bean), Nosek (little nose), Nos (nose), Górny (upper), Czyż (syskin), Jawor (maple), ¦miech (laughter), Gajda (bagpipe), Tur (auroch), Topor (ax), Chleb (bread), Rozmysł (intent), Kiełek (sprout), Włos (hair), Kołtun (babbitt), Włoch (Italian), Szpak (starling), Dziura (hole), Wykręt (dodge), Dzik (boar), Wdowiec (widower), Ostrów (holm), Kępa (hurst), B±k (gadfly), Dzieciuch (childish) ...
And the Polish given names:
Adam, Urban, Aleks, Piotr, Stach, Lach, Bogdan, Józef (?), Paweł, Kasper, Marek, Klim, Jan, Stefan, Czech, Augustyn, Lech, Antoni, Roman, Ignacy, Wiktor, Jakub (?), Maksym, Kondrat, Piech, Ciechan, Michał, Wojciech, Zych, Kacper, Sobek, Grzenko, Wyszko, Kochan, Wawrzyn, Kuba, Węgrzyn, Kuryło, Zygmunt, Gregor, Olko, Bartek, Teodor, Witek, Gaweł, Piotrek, Gasper, Tomek, Balcer, Krzysztof, Szymek, Fabian, Rafał, ¦cisło, Konstanty, Leszek, Miron ...
So no, the Nickidewbear's claim does not hold any water. And if this is not enough I can also provide you with links (some of them Jewish) how the process of making Jewish surnames really looked like - first in the free and later in the occupied Poland.