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How to understand and remember the Polish nominative plural form?

szveronika Threads: 4
Posts: 10
Joined: Apr 25, 2011
  ♀   May 28, 2011, 09:39pm  #

What is the best way to understand and remember the nominative plural form? I tried to understand the logic, but no success.

I always thought that the most important is to know what is hard and what is soft consonants. But I see not that it's not enough.

Example where I'm confused:
cz or rz is hard but ends differently (-e) than other hard consonants (-y) for masc.personal

For feminine

b, d, f, ch, ł, m, n, p, r, s, t, w, z
ends -y but
c, cz, dz, dż, h, ż, rz, anin, ć, dź, j, l, ń, ś, ź
ends -e (some part is soft some hard)

How can you learn it?

Thank you for any advise...

Koala Threads: 1
Posts: 408
Joined: May 4, 2011
  ♂   Edited by: Koala  May 28, 2011, 09:53pm  #

1. Look at the noun in its singular form.
2. Try to pronounce it in a way that's easier to do so.
3. Check the correct version.

Eventually you should get a grasp. It's a bit of a dick advice, but I don't think there's much point in learning the endings of every word. The plural form isn't as irregular as it is in German, anyway.

Anyway
ta macierz - te macierze
ta klacz - te klacze
So I think the endings are -e in both cases. Hard to explain why though.

macierz - matrix; klacz - mare

edit: just re-read your post and realized you gave the example, and not were asking to explain it; silly me.

Koala Threads: 1
Posts: 408
Joined: May 4, 2011
  ♂   May 28, 2011, 11:10pm  #

Just did some research into -cz feminine nouns, I don't think only the last sound matters.

ta klacz - te klacze
ta rzecz - te rzeczy
ta rozpacz - no plural
ta ciecz - te ciecze (I had to check it to be sure, it doesn't appear in plural too often)

z_darius Threads: 17
Posts: 4,924
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
  ♂   Edited by: z_darius  May 28, 2011, 11:49pm  #

Koala:
ta rozpacz - no plural

plural is te rozpacze

szveronika Threads: 4
Posts: 10
Joined: Apr 25, 2011
  ♀   Edited by: szveronika  May 29, 2011, 09:54am  #

Yes, rzeczy and myszy are exceptions. Also for feminine kości and powieści.

I think there is no way that I have to learn plural form for a lot of words and then I will know or I'll feel what to use..

+
Regarding cz and rz I am confused for masc.personal. For feminine the ending is same (-e) but for masc personal different. So I think I just need to learn, not to understand or find the logic.

Would be easier to learn if there is a logic in it..

Thanks anyway!

rviir     Jun 2, 2011, 01:35am  #

The hard-and-fast answer:

-neuter nouns replace -e/-o with -a.
przedszkole-->przedszkola
słowo-->słowa
serce-->serca
jajko-->jajka

The handful of neuter nouns that end in -ę are irregular, as always.
--------------------------------
You're familiar with the division into soft and hard consonants:
b, w, f, s, ł, etc. are hard, also ch and h (where did you find that h in feminine nouns enforces Nom.pl. in -e?)
ć, ń, dź, ś, ź, mi, pi, wi, ri, etc. are soft.
sz, dz, cz, dż, rz (all digraphs except ch), and also l, j, ż, c are known as functionally soft consonants: technically they're hard, but in declension they act just like soft consonants (so they require -e in Nom.pl.). The only difference is that ć, ń and the other accented consnants alternate with ci, ni, etc., whereas functionally soft consonants don't.

Simple feminine noun treatment:
Feminine nouns that end in a soft or functionally soft consonant (or have one just before the final -a) have Nom.pl. in -e.
restauracja-->restauracje
sala-->sale
gałąź-->gałęzie
armia-->armie
ciecz-->ciecze
twarz-->twarze

Otherwise, Nom.pl. ends in -i (after k or g) or -y.
droga-->drogi
mapa-->mapy

Pitfalls:
As noted above, rzecz and mysz are exceptions --> rzeczy, myszy. I can add myśl-->myśli, and brew--> brwi (rather than brwy).

There are also tons of exceptions among nouns ending in -ść, -ć, -dź.
odpowiedź-->odpowiedzi
wiadomość-->wiadomości
kość-->kości
postać-->postaci/postacie (both forms exist in contemporary Polish)

You can never really be sure with these endings, what the Nom.pl. is. Beware feminine nouns in -ść, -ć and -dź!

Masculine nouns (not people)
As before, soft and functionally soft consonants require -e (very few exceptions, if any).
bal-->bale
kosz-->kosze
garaż-->garaże
waleń-->walenie

Other than that, it's -i (if the noun ends in k or g) or -y otherwise.
samochód-->samochody
żuk-->żuki
nerw-->nerwy
papieros-->papierosy

Masculine nouns (people)
Functionally soft: ending -e
piekarz-->piekarze
złodziej-->złodzieje
wandal-->wandale
lekarz-->lekarze
nauczyciel-->nauczyciele
drań-->dranie

Exceptions: nouns in -c end in -y: sportowiec-->sportowcy, cudzoziemiec-->cudzoziemcy, głupiec-->głupcy

Otherwise (hard stems) you get consonant alternations!
elektryk-->elektrycy
biolog-->biolodzy
profesor-->profesorowie
most consonants get -i
ł would change into l, but can't think of a decent example right now.
t would change into ci and d into dzi

Nouns ending in -a get -i or -y with an alternation where appropriate:
kierowca-->kierowcy
mężczyzna-->mężczyźni (zn, st and some other pairs get softened together)
pianista-->pianiści

Pitfall 1:
all of the above (on masculine personal nouns) can be thrown away for some nouns which get the ending -owie in Nom.pl. They can't be identified from the Nom.sg. form, you need to know where it happens.
syn-->synopwie (but not syny)
ojciec-->ojcowie (not ojce)
wróg-->wrogowie (not wrodzy)

Sometimes -owie is optional, e.g. both profesorzy and profesorowie is ok, so is psycholodzy and psychologowie, and wnuk-->wnuki/wnukowie. But you can't stick -owie arbitrarily onto any noun: nauczycielowie would be spectacularly wrong.

Pitfall 2: (small)
A few masculine nouns have sneaky soft consonants that don't look soft. This is a historical artifact. Many of them are place names. Three most important ones, to my mind:
gołąb-->gołębie
żuraw-->żurawie
paw-->pawie

"Wrocław" also belongs to this group, but you don't often use the plural of a city name (which would be Wrocławie). This has implications for the Locative, though: we say "we Wrocławiu", but "w Krakowie" (it's the different ending that is important, ignore the difference between we/w---that's a whole different story).

Antek_Stalich Threads: 4
Posts: 1,285
Joined: May 6, 2011
  ♂   Jun 2, 2011, 01:47am  #

rviir:
-neuter nouns replace -e/-o with -a.

Like in dziecko/dzieci?

rviir     Jun 2, 2011, 01:47pm  #

@Antek_Stalich
The plural of "dziecko" is irregular. As is that of "człowiek", "ucho", "oko", "rok", "ksiądz" and a truckload of other nouns. Every rule has its exceptions.

Antek_Stalich Threads: 4
Posts: 1,285
Joined: May 6, 2011
  ♂   Jun 2, 2011, 02:13pm  #

I was joking. Polska mowa, trudna mowa!

catsoldier Threads: 100
Posts: 804
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
  ♂   Edited by: catsoldier  Jul 18, 2012, 09:43pm  #

rviir:

Masculine nouns (people)
Functionally soft: ending -e
piekarz-->piekarze
złodziej-->złodzieje
wandal-->wandale
lekarz-->lekarze
nauczyciel-->nauczyciele
drań-->dranie


My question:

Nauczyciele: a group of male teachers
Nauczycielki : a group of female teachers
What do you call them you mix them together?

Thanks


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How to understand and remember the Polish nominative plural form?

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