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Free Poland Health Care - Paying minimal to no Zus

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jul 17, 2012, 12:23am  #31

InWroclaw:
And yet a Polish person living in the UK has to pay the total sum of £0 to gain UK non emergency NHS treatment? Seems very unfair, does it not?


That's the fault of the NHS for not checking everyone thoroughly. In Poland, they will check every single time that you're entitled to it. The UK should be the same, but because the UK system is based on universal coverage rather than insurance - they don't bother. I think it's absolutely idiotic, personally - the UK should move to an insurance-style system too.

InWroclaw:
Not so as a Briton in Poland where you need to have ZUSsed yourself and know the rules inside out.


Not really - as long as you've paid for the sickness part of ZUS, you'll get treatment and sickness benefits.

InWroclaw:
It is very inequal.


Actually - in theory, it is equal. You cannot get health care in either country without contributing to the pot legally - but the problem is that the UK simply isn't checking for whatever reason. However, I know that in practice, some health care providers in the UK will demand proof of residency (payment of NI/receipt of benefits) before non-emergency treatment. It's just not universally practiced, unlike in Poland.


InWroclaw Threads: 129
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  ♂   Jul 17, 2012, 12:35am  #32

wawa_marek:
dtaylor5632, InWroclaw read my above post.

Why dont you check at EU websites and download the document:

http://ec.europa.eu/employment_social/empl_portal/SSRinEU/Your%20socia l%20security%20rights%20in%20Poland_en.pdf


I don't know which "above" post you are referring to.

The guide you have provided appears to be mainly aimed at Poles. The brief sections addressed to aliens use the word "eligible" in an ambiguous manner.

The bottom line, as I understand it from medical people here is "No ZUS booklet means no NFZ for you unless it is an emergency and you have a valid EHIC to show us."

That is not the situation in the UK for Poles - or wasn't last time I enquired, Poles have shown some proof of residency and got free routine healthcare, Some will also tell you they didn't even show that at the walk-in centres, mentioned by Pam,

Where can I as a Briton get such free routine treatment in Poland just by showing my electric bill or tenancy agreement? Nowhere that I know of. Here in Polska it's pay up or shove off, Mr Englishman. In the UK, we opened our registration books for thousands of Poles to have routine care at our already very stretched National Health Service clinics and surgeries, all foc. But no such reciprocal courtesy extended to Britons in RP to the best of my knowledge. "No ZUS, no joy." That's just not cricket is it.

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jul 17, 2012, 12:43am  #33

InWroclaw:
The bottom line, as I understand it from medical people here is "No ZUS booklet means no NFZ for you unless it is an emergency and you have a valid EHIC to show us."


Actually - not quite. Before I bothered to pay ZUS (and got married) - I was using the EHIC card. Never, ever had an issue getting non-emergency treatment - I even had plenty of dental work done on the basis of the EHIC. They basically accept it on the same basis as someone who pays ZUS - it was explained to me by my dentist that they would just overcharge the UK NHS for the work done, so no issue.

You can always pay for the NFZ separately too, or claim unemployment benefits if you're a legal resident. If you aren't entitled to the unemployment benefits, you still get your health care paid for.

Bear in mind that you can pay really peanuts and still get ZUS paid for - the common route for teachers is to work 6 clock hours a week in a public school, the rest privately.

InWroclaw Threads: 129
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  ♂   Edited by: InWroclaw  Jul 17, 2012, 12:46am  #34

delphiandomine:
Actually - in theory, it is equal. You cannot get health care in either country without contributing to the pot legally


The discussion is what's provided in Britain for Poles and in Poland for Britons. It's what is happening that's important, not why,

Are Poles getting this free treatment in much of the UK? Yes. Are Britons getting this free treatment in Poland? No. End of story.

No point quoting to me some laws or rules that don't alter one jot this grotesque inequality.

delphiandomine:
Actually - not quite. Before I bothered to pay ZUS (and got married) - I was using the EHIC card. Never, ever had an issue getting non-emergency treatment -


Lucky you then! We're not all that lucky here.

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jul 17, 2012, 12:56am  #35

InWroclaw:
Lucky you then! We're not all that lucky here.


Honestly, you could just try around. It can't be just luck - I visited two different doctors and a dentist, and they were all happy to take it for routine stuff. I suspect they might have been screwing the NHS by claiming that it was emergency, but well, not my problem.

InWroclaw:
Are Poles getting this free treatment in much of the UK? Yes. Are Britons getting this free treatment in Poland? No. End of story.

No point quoting to me some laws or rules that don't alter one jot this grotesque inequality.


The strange thing for me is why the UK simply doesn't require some sort of proof of insurance before treating people. It's just...absurd.

(mind you - plenty of Poles aren't covered by the NFZ, too)

strzyga Threads: 4
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  ♀   Jul 17, 2012, 12:57am  #36

InWroclaw:
"No ZUS, no joy."

If it's any consolation to you, it's "no ZUS, no joy" for Poles too. You need to be either employed, or self-employed, or unemployed with the unemployment rights, or covered by a spouse who's one of the above.

delphiandomine:
or claim unemployment benefits if you're a legal resident

In order to claim unemployment benefits you need to have been employed for a certain amount of time, or a fresh graduate. The benefits are laughable but ZUS is covered then. You can't just do nothing for a number of years and then claim unemployment. I'm not sure however what it looks like in case of a non-Polish UE citizen who comes to Poland, becomes a resident and can't find a job.

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jul 17, 2012, 01:00am  #37

strzyga:
or covered by a spouse who's one of the above.


Or in full time education up to 26, no?

strzyga:
The benefits are laughable but ZUS is covered then. You can't just do nothing for a number of years and then claim unemployment.


You can still claim NFZ care - I've known a couple of people who didn't need the cash, but who were registered solely for health care purposes.

strzyga:
I'm not sure however what it looks like in case of a non-Polish UE citizen who comes to Poland, becomes a resident and can't find a job.


You can't become legally resident without having a reason to stay here - if you aren't in possession of the relevant EU residence certificate, no can do. There are some transitional agreements for transporting UK unemployment benefits to Poland for up to 3 months, however.

InWroclaw Threads: 129
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  ♂   Jul 17, 2012, 01:08am  #38

delphiandomine:
Honestly, you could just try around. It can't be just luck - I visited two different doctors and a dentist, and they were all happy to take it for routine stuff.


I will - thank you for the tip.



strzyga:
If it's any consolation to you, it's "no ZUS, no joy" for Poles too.


And Poles in Poland have my sympathy on that too, no wonder Poles on the plane and in the UK tell me "I'm never going back to [live in] Poland."

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jul 17, 2012, 01:12am  #39

InWroclaw:
I will - thank you for the tip.


What I'd do is get someone to call some doctors/dentists/etc and ask them explicitly if they'll accept the EHIC. The Polish name is "EKUZ". You'll no doubt find some that will accept it - especially the smaller ones. If I knew Wroclaw better, I'd help you - but alas :(

InWroclaw:
And Poles in Poland have my sympathy on that too, no wonder Poles on the plane and in the UK tell me "I'm never going back to [live in] Poland."


It's much to do with opportunity. If someone isn't educated and was forced to leave school at an early age to work for the family, they're never going to consider going back.

strzyga Threads: 4
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  ♀   Jul 17, 2012, 01:47am  #40

delphiandomine:
Or in full time education up to 26, no?

Yes, that's another one. Or a disability beneficiary, or an old age pensioner, or a KRUS payer (small farmer), or their spouses. I think that about covers it?

delphiandomine:
You can still claim NFZ care - I've known a couple of people who didn't need the cash, but who were registered solely for health care purposes.

Yeah, I did some checking and it looks like you're right, although it might change soon:
http://wolnemedia.net/prawo/bezrobotni-bez-prawa-do-ubezpieczenia/

Searching through the net I've found this:
https://www.ekuz.nfz.gov.pl/en/info_dla_uprawnionych_z_innych/general- information-concerning-access-health-care-during-temporary-st
It looks like EHIC is perfectly valid to get any medical treatment even during a temporary stay and it's not only about emergencies.

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jul 17, 2012, 02:25am  #41

strzyga:
Yes, that's another one. Or a disability beneficiary, or an old age pensioner, or a KRUS payer (small farmer), or their spouses. I think that about covers it?


I think so. The whole KRUS system is so thoroughly rotten, but that's for another thread.

strzyga:
Yeah, I did some checking and it looks like you're right, although it might change soon:


That surely can't happen, can it? I always thought that this was the very small safety net provided for the most vulnerable - though I suppose it will cut the amount of people willing to work on the black market if their health care isn't paid for.

strzyga:
It looks like EHIC is perfectly valid to get any medical treatment even during a temporary stay and it's not only about emergencies.


Now - that's an interesting find. It explains why they never had an issue with me!

InWroclaw Threads: 129
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  ♂   Jul 17, 2012, 09:24am  #42

The British embassy says it's complicated - and they're not kidding. http://ukinpoland.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/whenthingsg owrong/ifyouneeddoctor

strzyga:
It looks like EHIC is perfectly valid to get any medical treatment even during a temporary stay and it's not only about emergencies.

The UK EHIC says the same for Poland http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/healt hcareinPoland.aspx

But it's a different story in reality here. You can get "If a temporary stay and it's not urgent, speak to your doctor back in the UK when you return as EHIC is for emergencies only. If you are living in Poland, Mr Englishman, NFZ is only available with proof of ZUS." That is completely different to what Poles get in the UK - they just get a GP and treatment if necessary with no nonsense, or at least they did last time I was there.

Here, if it is merely a matter of choosing a different NFZ practitioner with a better understanding or better attitude to EHIC, then I will persevere but it will mean more hassle and unnecessary inconvenience as the surgeries near me would have been better. I have a nasty feeling, however, that I will be told one thing on the phone and then when I turn up they will suddenly say at Reception "If you live here where is your ZUS? The EHIC is insufficient and only for urgent illness or emergencies". "Oh you are here just temporarily? Then see your doctor in the UK, EHIC is for emergencies only here. That ailment is not an emergency or very unlikely to be! Następny!"

This contradictory situation doesn't surprise me - just to give a more trivial example: I was using a local train the other day and the ticket office told me my Urbancard does not get me a discount and charged me full fare, yet the conductor on the train then told me my Urbancard would have reduced my fare considerably, and another conductor later the same day contradicted that and told me it was full fare or off the train. Few people seem to sing from the same hymn sheet here.

delphiandomine:
What I'd do is get someone to call some doctors/dentists/etc and ask them explicitly if they'll accept the EHIC. The Polish name is "EKUZ". You'll no doubt find some that will accept it - especially the smaller ones. If I knew Wroclaw better, I'd help you - but alas :(


Thanks for the information, I will see if I get anywhere with them.

jasondmzk     Jul 17, 2012, 09:27am  #43

Polish health care is like something from motherfkin' Dante, I tell you what. That is some scary, dark, dank, scary-ass bullmess, right there.

pantsless Threads: 1
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  ♂   Jul 17, 2012, 09:08pm  #44

BritboyByd:
Is there a way to get free healthcare or pay minimal zus?


Like someone mentioned, you can set up a one-person company and pay about 450zl for the first two years which would cover all three of you, it's not a bad deal really. But then your ZUS payments are jacked up to the normal rate (970zl or so).

Nonetheless, the entire NFZ system is in such a state of disrepair you will be going to most doctors privately, maybe not to your family doctor ("doctor of first contact") but certainly to see an ob gyn, pediatrician, orthopedist...etc. There are a number of private health insurers that offer decent medical care with most specialities covered and zero or short wait times, but which does not include hospitalization or cover serious long-term diseases. That's why I have both.

NFZ for accidents, amublances, hospital stays, and I dont know, chemotherapy and heart surgery. Some priv health insurers do offer hospitalization/surgery but its quite expensive, others offer "perks" like a private room or a private nurse.

Priv health insurance for day to day stuff like the flu, back pains, broken leg and most important, preventive medicine. My biggest beef with Poland's public health care is the absolute lack of preventive healthcare, i.e., no annual blood tests, urine samples, and all that routine checkup crap that is considered barebones standard in western countries. My insurer/doctor just scheduled a round of chest xrays, full blood tests, urine tests, and some other tests/analyses just as a routine control and had everything done in a period of two days.

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Edited by: delphiandomine  Jul 17, 2012, 09:33pm  #45

pantsless:
Nonetheless, the entire NFZ system is in such a state of disrepair


That's not true - the NFZ system is more inconsistent than anything. I've got absolutely no issues with my local GP, nor any issue with my NFZ dentist. The all-night drop-in doctor service is also very good here, and the local hospital isn't bad too. There are horror stories too, but on the whole - it does what it can on a very limited budget.

pantsless:
but certainly to see an ob gyn, pediatrician, orthopedist...etc.


This is partially because they're absolutely dirt cheap in Poland. I saw a renowned specialist for 90zl - try getting the same thing in the West for even 500zl.

pantsless:
My biggest beef with Poland's public health care is the absolute lack of preventive healthcare, i.e., no annual blood tests, urine samples, and all that routine checkup crap that is considered barebones standard in western countries.


What, where? Not in the UK it's not...

InWroclaw Threads: 129
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  ♂   Jul 17, 2012, 10:24pm  #46

delphiandomine:
What, where? Not in the UK it's not...


Correct. If it had been my mum would not have died of lung cancer (she was always a non smoker and not even exposed to passive cigarette smoke).

Regular chest x-rays etc would perhaps have caught it early enough to save her. There would have been a chance RFA (radio frequency ablation) could have halted it for example.

strzyga Threads: 4
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  ♀   Jul 18, 2012, 01:09am  #47

delphiandomine:
That surely can't happen, can it? I always thought that this was the very small safety net provided for the most vulnerable

Yeah. The government is trying to economize whatever they can but I don't think they'll be able to pull this one through. Kaczyński and his clan would have a field day. This is a tricky one as on one hand, it would seriously cut down on false unemployment but on the other hand it would be a stab in the back for the weakest and most vulnerable social group. I'd say half and half. It might depend on whether the government is more desperate to find some money or not to lose the next elections. Or the whole idea might be cooked up just as a negotiation tool for some other issues. Hard to say really.

InWroclaw:
The UK EHIC says the same for Poland http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/healt hcareinPoland.aspxBut it's a different story in reality here. You can get "If a temporary stay and it's not urgent, speak to your doctor back in the UK when you return as EHIC is for emergencies only. If you are living in Poland, Mr Englishman, NFZ is only available with proof of ZUS."

But have you tried this or is it just your impressions? Delphian says he did and it worked, I see no reason why it wouldn't work in Wrocław too.
There might be a difference between a temporary visitor and a permanent resident - a temporary visitor pays his regular contributions to NHS so NFZ is able to get their money back from its British counterpart. A permanent resident doesn't pay his NHS contributions anymore - correct me if I'm wrong - therefore he's supposed to pay into the NFZ here. At least I think that's the idea.

pantsless:
Like someone mentioned, you can set up a one-person company and pay about 450zl for the first two years which would cover all three of you, it's not a bad deal really. But then your ZUS payments are jacked up to the normal rate (970zl or so).

If you're a resident of Poland with no obligation to pay the full ZUS and no health insurance from another country (meaning no EHIC card), you don't have to set up a company - you can just pay the NFZ healthcare insurance. I've checked it on the NFZ site, it's in Polish but it says so clearly.
http://www.nfz-szczecin.pl/ubezpieczenie_dobrowolne2.htm
The current monthly amount starts with 329,77zł (can be more, depending on the declared income) and it covers the whole family (the spouse and minor children).

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jul 18, 2012, 01:19am  #48

strzyga:
Yeah. The government is trying to economize whatever they can but I don't think they'll be able to pull this one through. Kaczyński and his clan would have a field day. This is a tricky one as on one hand, it would seriously cut down on false unemployment but on the other hand it would be a stab in the back for the weakest and most vulnerable social group. I'd say half and half. It might depend on whether the government is more desperate to find some money or not to lose the next elections. Or the whole idea might be cooked up just as a negotiation tool for some other issues. Hard to say really.


It's an interesting one to say the least. I'm really not sure where I stand - as you say, it would cut down on the false unemployment, but there are still plenty of people who really are living on the margins of society - and this would just push them down even further. Even something like only allowing emergency care wouldn't work, because then they'd just go to hospitals for routine things (like what's happening in the UK now!).

Leaving it as it is would seem to be the most sensible approach. Of course - if someone is discovered to be working illegally, then they should be hammered for the backpayments.

strzyga:
There might be a difference between a temporary visitor and a permanent resident - a temporary visitor pays his regular contributions to NHS so NFZ is able to get their money back from its British counterpart. A permanent resident doesn't pay his NHS contributions anymore - correct me if I'm wrong - therefore he's supposed to pay into the NFZ here. At least I think that's the idea.


That's the impression I get too, although they never enquired when I was using it rather than through ZUS. They were only interested in the EHIC card and my passport.

strzyga:
The current monthly amount starts with 329,77zł (can be more, depending on the declared income) and it covers the whole family (the spouse and minor children).


Amazingly good deal when you think about it.

There is one catch - if you start paying this, stop, then start again - there are some financial penalties to pay to rejoin the system.

Avalon Threads: 2
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  ♂   Jul 18, 2012, 07:45am  #49

strzyga:
If you're a resident of Poland with no obligation to pay the full ZUS and no health insurance from another country (meaning no EHIC card), you don't have to set up a company - you can just pay the NFZ healthcare insurance. I've checked it on the NFZ site, it's in Polish but it says so clearly.
http://www.nfz-szczecin.pl/ubezpieczenie_dobrowolne2.htm
The current monthly amount starts with 329,77zł (can be more, depending on the declared income) and it covers the whole family (the spouse and minor children).


This is what I have been doing for the past 5 years.

InWroclaw Threads: 129
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  ♂   Jul 18, 2012, 08:07am  #50

strzyga:
But have you tried this or is it just your impressions?


They very simply said the EHIC is for emergencies only and if I haven't paid ZUS I need to pay privately to see a GP etc.I will try to get somewhere with another practitioner as it has been suggested not everyone takes that line with a foreigner!

pantsless Threads: 1
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  ♂   Edited by: pantsless  Jul 18, 2012, 04:26pm  #51

delphiandomine:
That's not true - the NFZ system is more inconsistent than anything. I've got absolutely no issues with my local GP, nor any issue with my NFZ dentist. The all-night drop-in doctor service is also very good here, and the local hospital isn't bad too. There are horror stories too, but on the whole - it does what it can on a very limited budget.


Yes, it is true. As a system it is rotten. I saw my grandfather pass away after two years of bad doctors, bad hospitals, bad health care, poor decisions and I dont know how much misinformation, insolent behavior, bribes I had to put up with. As they say in poland... zeby chorować trzeba być zdrowym. Now I help out my grandmother, and its same crap. Bad doctors, long lines, poor or malfunctioning equipment, excuses, lies and the worst, most doctors and nurses dont even look at you like a human being. She's been waiting for 3 years for an eye operation, and now shes got stomach problems, the only gastrologist thats got a USG is one rude little porker and the wait is three weeks. When I broke my ankle the local hospital set the cast wrong and if some private doctor hadnt caught it I could have been disabled for life, and oh yea, I only got two weeks of physical therapy when I should have had at least 1.5 months, plus most of the therapy was a joke anyway. To this day my ankle hurts, Im going to have crippling arthiritis when Im older. And Ive got a million stories about friends and neighbors, two are currently suing their doctors for total incompetence and medical malpractice (of course the lawsuits have been going on for over 4 years), one swore to kill one doctor if he ever sees him as he almost killed his child.

This is partially because they're absolutely dirt cheap in Poland. I saw a renowned specialist for 90zl - try getting the same thing in the West for even 500zl.

For the 5-10 minutes they spend on you and then quickly forget you, oh yea, plus the fact that most Poles make 2000zl, that's quite a lot and in my opinion they are grossly overpaid. Prices in the West are inconsequential, who cares.


What, where? Not in the UK it's not...

Well then the UK sucks, but thats no surprise. In the US I had annual checkups with reminders with what I needed or should do. My father just had a full body CAT scan done since he hit 60 plus a whole battery of tests. Just because... i.e., preventive medicine.

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jul 18, 2012, 05:09pm  #52

pantsless:
In the US I had annual checkups with reminders with what I needed or should do. My father just had a full body CAT scan done since he hit 60 plus a whole battery of tests. Just because... i.e., preventive medicine.


You really can't compare the US system (which causes people to lose their homes/etc) with the Polish system. It's just not comparable. You can get anything in the US if you pay for it - in Poland, they're not paying anything near the amount that you would pay in the US, so it's obvious that the system won't be handing out full body scans or tests to everyone.

pantsless:
As a system it is rotten.


If it's rotten, why do I and countless others have good experiences with the system?

pantsless:
For the 5-10 minutes they spend on you and then quickly forget you


Why would they remember you? Do you remember every client of yours?

pantsless:
oh yea, plus the fact that most Poles make 2000zl


Not the old "oh Poles are so poor" line.

pantsless:
and in my opinion they are grossly overpaid. Prices in the West are inconsequential, who cares.


Grossly overpaid? 90zl for 15-20 minutes of a renowned specialists time?

People in Poland pay around $100 a month for health care that covers their entire family. They won't get it taken away from them when they're sick, nor will they be forced to sell their houses just to pay medical bills.

FUZZYWICKETS Threads: 8
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  ♂   Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS  Jul 18, 2012, 07:09pm  #53

delphiandomine:
You really can't compare the US system (which causes people to lose their homes/etc) with the Polish system. It's just not comparable. You can get anything in the US if you pay for it - in Poland, they're not paying anything near the amount that you would pay in the US, so it's obvious that the system won't be handing out full body scans or tests to everyone.


farse.

if you're middle class or above, your employer pays your medical insurance almost entirely.

if you're poor, you're covered by Medicaid.

if you're over 65, Medicare.

if you have pre-existing conditions, you're pretty much protected by Obama's healthcare reforms.

and the 2.65 million Americans that work for the feds, well their medical is paid in full by the government.

the stories of people losing their houses, sure, it has happened in a country of 300+ million people, but is it the norm? does it define the American health care industry? it surely does not.

Let's look at the facts. I can provide them for you all because I live and work here and have a leg to stand on:

In the USA, women go to an OB/GYN every 6 months. Mamograms are done once a year after the age of....I think 40.

Everyone from the age of 2 years old goes to the dentist every 6 months for a cleaning, gets an x-ray once a year. We have nice teeth for a reason.

Physicals are given once a year unless of course you're ill, then it's obviously more frequent.

Eye exams are given twice a year.

My wife and I pay zero....that's right, zero dollars for health insurance, it is paid in full by her company. Her OB/GYN visits I believe alternate free/$20/free/$20, so one fully paid, the other has a small copay. Mamograms are free. Our dental visits go the same way. free/$20/free/$20. Eye exams the same, plus I get $130/year towards contact lenses or new glasses. Your yearly physical is free with most health care providers.

We're not wealthy and my wife isn't a US senator. Sure, most people don't get it totally free, but any good job here and you're paying peanuts for health care.

The people that struggle with health insurance in the USA generally are lower class people that are in and out of lousy jobs and have constant lapses in their health insurance. Cashiers, gas pump attendants, landscapers getting paid under the table mostly, bartenders and waitstaff....they are at risk of falling ill and not having insurance. Obama's new policy that allows parents to insure their kids under their health insurance policy till the age of 26 is greatly remedying that though.

The problem with the USA's health care system is maternity leave. It's abomidable. 4-8 weeks at home and back to work. sucks.

So now that we've established that the vast majority of people in the USA don't pay more for health insurance than people in Poland, fill us in on how we "can't compare" the US system with the Polish system. Because now we have facts to work with.

InWroclaw Threads: 129
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  ♂   Jul 24, 2012, 10:07pm  #54

Further to my posts above and post 42 - best I have come up with so far from a NFZ doctor is
"You need to go to xyz street in Wroclaw and register with the NFZ there by showing them your European proof of entitlement; they will then give you some NFZ paperwork or certificate if you are approved there. Bring that paperwork here and we can register you only then."



pantsless Threads: 1
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  ♂   Jul 28, 2012, 11:24pm  #55

delphiandomine:
You really can't compare the US system (which causes people to lose their homes/etc) with the Polish system. It's just not comparable. You can get anything in the US if you pay for it - in Poland, they're not paying anything near the amount that you would pay in the US, so it's obvious that the system won't be handing out full body scans or tests to everyone.


Hmmm... you say that it's not comparable, but then you compare how much US specialists' make to Polish doctors, with Poles making oh... 1/8 of what Americans what. Whatever. The incidence rate of individuals who had "sell/lose their homes to pay their medical bills" is minute, but nonetheless a sad fact. But then again I can point out the thousands and millions of zlotys Poles had to hand out in bribes and present to receive standard everyday healthcare. Or those who couldnt wait 2-3 years for an operation and had to pay for it privately. I know dozens who had to do this.

If it's rotten, why do I and countless others have good experiences with the system?

Did I ever say that? I agree with the system and favor it hands over the private healthcare scheme thats back in the US. But the system IN POLAND is rotten. Im interested in the "countless others" you mentioned, can you mention some specific cases. Because the de rigueur of what I'e seen is this: mention "NFZ/ZUS" to anyone and all you'll hear are groans and pleas to skip to another subject or a few hours of recollecting stories about treatment that would've left the SS impressed.

Why would they remember you? Do you remember every client of yours?

Uhh, wtf. That's why they're doctors. That's their job, to diagnose and treat my medical problems, which in itself requires a bit of personalized human contact to understand why I may experiencing a certain afflication. I'm sure your detective skills have been honed by watching CSI, how about House? You noticed that the whole "patient's medical history" plays oh I dont konw, a huge f-ing role in medicine? Delph, how old are you, 19? Btw, yes, I remember every client of mine.

Not the old "oh Poles are so poor" line.

The ones you teach English to are certainly not poor. The ones you dont, i.e., 75% of the population, makes 2000zl net and dreams of buying a 10 year old VW Golf or going on their first vacation outside of Poland. Of course youd have no chance of talking to normal everyday Poles, so I dont know why Im bringing this up.

Grossly overpaid? 90zl for 15-20 minutes of a renowned specialists time?

Considering it's 5% of an average Pole's median salary who nonetheless pays for health insurance that ought to cover it in the first place, that's it's for more like 10 minutes, yea that's grossly overpaid.

People in Poland pay around $100 a month for health care that covers their entire family. They won't get it taken away from them when they're sick, nor will they be forced to sell their houses just to pay medical bills.

Yea, but it really doesnt do much when you are sick anyway. In my opinion the cost of healthcare in PL should go way up, while the cost of one's pension plan ought to go way down, but of course that goes with salaries doubling.

FUZZYWICKETS Threads: 8
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  ♂   Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS  Jul 30, 2012, 01:07pm  #56

pantsless:
But then again I can point out the thousands and millions of zlotys Poles had to hand out in bribes and present to receive standard everyday healthcare. Or those who couldnt wait 2-3 years for an operation and had to pay for it privately. I know dozens who had to do this.


Oh but pantsless, the reason why you think that's true is because you're unsuccessful and poor and don't spend any time with wealthy people (at least that's what he tells me).


pantsless:
The ones you teach English to are certainly not poor. The ones you dont, i.e., 75% of the population, makes 2000zl net and dreams of buying a 10 year old VW Golf or going on their first vacation outside of Poland.


yep. i've heard plenty of these stories.

Ironside Threads: 50
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  ♂  :-( Edited by: Ironside  Jul 30, 2012, 04:21pm  #57

InWroclaw:
That is completely different to what Poles get in the UK - they just get a GP and treatment if necessary with no nonsense, or at least they did last time I was there.

The rules around who GPs should treat for free are fairly flexible. A GP can choose to register overseas visitors as temporary residents, or, if they are in the UK for longer than three months, accept them onto their lists.
Also all the EU citizens residing legally in the UK longer than six months are entitled to visit GP for free. To visit GP for free can also those who work or study in the county.
Technically this could apply to failed asylum seekers or immigrants, although this is left down to the decision of the individual GP.
In addition, asylum seekers or refugees who have been given leave to remain in the UK, or are awaiting results of an application to remain in the country, are eligible for free GP treatment.
Nothing to do with Poles, just the UK system.
FUZZYWICKETS:
So now that we've established that the vast majority of people in the USA don't pay more for health insurance than people in Poland, fill us in on how we "can't compare" the US system with the Polish system. Because now we have facts to work with.

If you want to have proper healthcare in Poland that suits you and you are taken properly care off, you need to pay as well. On the top of your "free entitlement", health insurance is included in taxes, it means that it pay from the budged. Most of the monies are eaten by bureaucrats.

pantsless Threads: 1
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Joined: Feb 1, 2010
  ♂   Jul 31, 2012, 12:33am  #58

FUZZYWICKETS:
Oh but pantsless, the reason why you think that's true is because you're unsuccessful and poor and don't spend any time with wealthy people (at least that's what he tells me).


Surprisingly, similarly to what's in other Western countries, rich Poles have also adopted a similar kind of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in ignoring the abject poverty most Poles live in. Because it's oh so easy to become rich and successful.

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Edited by: delphiandomine  Jul 31, 2012, 02:40am  #59

pantsless:
Hmmm... you say that it's not comparable, but then you compare how much US specialists' make to Polish doctors, with Poles making oh... 1/8 of what Americans what.


1/8th? I don't think so. The latest figures are showing it to be more like 2/5ths of the USA - and the gap is narrowing year after year. Those figures don't even take into account the roughly 25% of the Polish economy that is "black". Then again, keep on rocking the tired old "oh, Poles are so poor, they can't afford anything" line.

If you need some hard evidence, compare the cars on the road in countries such as Greece compared to Poland.

pantsless:
But then again I can point out the thousands and millions of zlotys Poles had to hand out in bribes and present to receive standard everyday healthcare. Or those who couldnt wait 2-3 years for an operation and had to pay for it privately. I know dozens who had to do this.


How can you compare the two systems? Yet again - the NFZ system does what it can on a tiny budget. As for the bribes - this practice is eroding, just like it did with the police and other officials. Again - comparing a democracy of over 200 years to a very young democratic country is just insane.

pantsless:
But the system IN POLAND is rotten. Im interested in the "countless others" you mentioned, can you mention some specific cases. Because the de rigueur of what I'e seen is this: mention "NFZ/ZUS" to anyone and all you'll hear are groans and pleas to skip to another subject or a few hours of recollecting stories about treatment that would've left the SS impressed.


I can hardly mention specific cases because it's a public forum, but needless to say - hospitals and clinics alike, treatment has been fine and no bribes have been asked for. But you won't believe me because you choose to believe the (often embellished) stories of Poles instead - who are notorious for exaggerating alleged poor treatment.

pantsless:
Uhh, wtf. That's why they're doctors. That's their job, to diagnose and treat my medical problems, which in itself requires a bit of personalized human contact to understand why I may experiencing a certain afflication. I'm sure your detective skills have been honed by watching CSI, how about House? You noticed that the whole "patient's medical history" plays oh I dont konw, a huge f-ing role in medicine? Delph, how old are you, 19? Btw, yes, I remember every client of mine.


I think that's a pretty unrealistic expectation of a health care system that exists to treat the masses rather than the few. I've never, ever expected any doctor to remember me - the case notes should tell the story. And they do. Perhaps you should enquire why your doctors don't seem to have access to your case notes?

Personalised human contact? That's in the world of ridiculously high insurance premiums and "care" that exists to earn as much money as possible.

pantsless:
The ones you teach English to are certainly not poor. The ones you dont, i.e., 75% of the population, makes 2000zl net and dreams of buying a 10 year old VW Golf or going on their first vacation outside of Poland. Of course youd have no chance of talking to normal everyday Poles, so I dont know why Im bringing this up.


I know people earning that kind of money who go on vacation outside Poland all the time. Again - it's the tired, boring old "oh, Poles are so poor, because I base this on the old woman who has to pay for 2 alcoholic children and a moron of a grandfather that I see" story. Poles are simply not poor - end of story. If they were, why did I see countless Polish plates on a roadtrip recently?

pantsless:
Considering it's 5% of an average Pole's median salary who nonetheless pays for health insurance that ought to cover it in the first place, that's it's for more like 10 minutes, yea that's grossly overpaid.


It does cover it, but I'd rather see a specialist when I want rather than when the NFZ wants me to. Public consultants tend to work public hours - which don't work for me. And no, it's not grossly overpaid - although it does sound like jealousy when you say that.

Average Pole? The average Pole earns far more than 2000zl. Then again, these numbers just don't support the tired old story, do they?

Suggesting that Poles live in poverty is simply insulting to those that do.

At the end of the day, the system in Poland does what it can on the money that it has. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than people have got elsewhere. In terms of comparable facilities, Poland is just...fine.

FUZZYWICKETS Threads: 8
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Joined: Nov 3, 2009
  ♂   Jul 31, 2012, 01:39pm  #60

delphiandomine:
1/8th? I don't think so. The latest figures are showing it to be more like 2/5ths of the USA - and the gap is narrowing year after year.


The avg starting salary for most doctors in the USA is around $200,000. An emergency room physician, according to salary.com, earns roughly $250,000, and that's of course average, not what a 20 year doctor takes home:

http://www1.salary.com/ER-physician-Salary.html

Surgeons and such obviously take home much more. $400,000+

$1 = 3.34 zloty.

Do Polish doctors earn an average of 267,200 zloty per year? Do ER physicians in Poland earn an average of 334,000 zloty per year, or roughly 27,833 zloty per month?

Just fact checking.
delphiandomine:
Poles are simply not poor - end of story. If they were, why did I see countless Polish plates on a roadtrip recently?


Did I read this right? Your "end of story" statement is that plates from Boleslawiec appeared in stores on a recent roadtrip? By that logic, everyone in China must be loaded, they got crap everywhere.

You truly are amazing, dude.



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