What name should we use for 1939-45 deportation of Polish to Siberia?

What name should we use for 1939-45 deportation of Polish to Siberia? It seems we don't get included in "genocide"or "holocaust" even "Katyn" now has a name. Ethnic cleansing is disputed and not really a name but more of a definition. I feel it is time to have one name that when we refer to this subject everyone is aware of the who, what and where. Even Russians will say this never happened and a referal name may set the history right.

get it over that how you should call

Get what over I don't think any of this will "get it over" . Now with Poland free at last we shall be placed in the history books. I just want a "name" for the reference. I don't think that is to much to ask.

I agree whoeheartedly with you celinski :))



It isn't and never wil be and I admire you for all the great links and information you have posted on here since you became a member.

Thank you celinksi :))

Thank you so much Lady in red. Do you have any thoughts on a name for this group. I strongly feel with at least a name our families will not be forgotten?

How about calling it “The Great Deportation”?
I believe it involved some one and a half million people so it would qualify for the term “Great”.
However, I don’t think that simply giving this event a name will do the trick of putting it in the history books. The only action that seems to work in such cases is claiming compensation. Get the victims to claim compensation and you’ll have a ripple that may turn into a wave.

there is term in Polish ... "SYBIRACY"

Lukasz, I like it, Carol

Ob=mniba & Lukasz, What about. "A GREAT SYBIRACY" kinda catchie. Carol

omniba,
This give deaths that took place (in the camps)that could be counted. some say tripple that # going to and leaving and then we have the ones that died within four or five years from condition and weakened immune systems. Carol

"The rest we know all too well. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty that paved the way for Hitler to start the World War, and the Soviet invasion of Poland on September 17, 1939, executed under the pretense of "protecting the oppressed minorities." Stalin went the same way that had been inaugurated five centuries earlier by Ivan III: again, deportations that wasted 1.5 million Polish lives (of these, 0.5 million perished in the Siberian and Kazakh labor camps); then the Katyn murders totaling 23,000 people, the elite of the Polish patriotic intelligentsia, killed on a single order; then, after a short period of cooperation with the Polish government-in-exile, cooperation which was forced on Stalin by the unexpected German invasion, preparations to install a new Russian (this time Soviet) party in Poland. A new Targowica group could be recruited only among the communists. But Stalin knew that he had to break the neck of the Polish society first to make it acquiesce to the new Russian-Soviet domination. His communist clients, whom he used to enslave Poland, knew it even better."

As I understand it, there was a two-fold purpose for the uprooting and deportations.

The bolshevik zhids who instigated and carried out the Russian communist revolution, previously poor and landless, wanted to bring the wealth and property of the nation under their control through the "collectivisation" of farms and businesses. To head off a rebellion against such an outrageous and deleterious-to-all scheme these self-centered zhids uprooted and relocated people, moving the most able and prosperous ones to Siberia since these would be the strongest opponents of a scheme so crazy that it took the USSR generations to recover in terms of food and other production. It almost takes generations to learn the intricacies of local climates, soil conditions, agricultural pest and disease problems to successfully farm, for example. Yet, the crazy zhids ignored all this for the sake of holding power, knowing that 90% of the population opposed them.

So, any deportation term needs to include the trademark of the psychopathic authors of the scheme, its inhumane nature and a reference to the stupidity of it.

Their zionist cousins have been doing exactly the same thing in Palestine to form the illegal Israeli state.

Sorry I had to take your whole paragraph
Tatarewicz,
Say what? Are you for real or just checking to see if anyone read the answers? Mr. Tatar, Please think before you type such twisted fairytales. "Poor and landless", try front line in WW1, you got it "Polands best". Seems to me they were so good Russia had to wait until they were "unarmed" and sleeping with their families. You got it even "unarmed" Russia was scared with a good mind to be. Pick up your books dear, when granted amnesty they regrouped on Russian soil mind you, to and become "Anders Army". Look it up and see there track record as they did not back down in fact they won and were heros to many. Please write back after you learn the real facts, Carol







Tatarewicz,
Say what? Are you for real or just checking to see if anyone read the answers? Mr. Tatar, Please think before you type such twisted fairytales. "Poor and landless", try front line in WW1, you got it "Polands best". Seems to me they were so good Russia had to wait until they were "unarmed" and sleeping with their families. You got it even "unarmed" Russia was scared with a good mind to be. Pick up your books dear, when granted amnesty they regrouped on Russian soil mind you, to and become "Anders Army". Look it up and see there track record as they did not back down in fact they won and were heros to many. Please write back after you learn the real facts, Carol

First of all, do you want a name for this event just in Polish? Surely the Poles know what happened. It’s the rest of the world that doesn’t. Therefore there should be some term for this primarily in the English language and “Sybiracy” doesn’t mean anything in English. Using “Great Sybiracy”, catchy or not, you’d have a name but the world would be non the wiser as to what was meant by it.
As to the one and a half million people I mentioned, I was referring just to the civilian deportation which is what I thought you were on about, though come to think of it that was the number of deported just in 1940.

omniba,

I thought that the Polish were educated on this subject also, what I find is the younger gen. in Poland (due to being silenced by communism) are not as educated as I we are in USA. This does not say much as USA is full of inaccurate information. This I feel is due to USA's part in WW11 in regards to helping Stalin. In the USA it seems the Russians are the ones that are really in the dark.


I am sorry I knew what you were referring to I was just making sure others knew the rest of the numbers not mentioned.

The Holodomor 1932-1933, The Holocaust, Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing. Katyn now is named mostly due to the movie. At the very least when you say “Katyn massacre” people can relate.

In my Yahoo groups (Poland-speaks-out • Poland the silence is broken) someone brought up: Re:” [Poland-speaks-out] Juszczenko pressing Israel to declare genocide as holocaust”
My reply:
Let me think about this, genocide to holocaust. What one is worse depends on how many people die. Both can be used I suppose. I still wonder why what happened (deportation to Siberia) to the Polish in Ukraine was never really given a name. I guess we could try to come up with one. Wow, even "Katyn" has a name now. Any thought on one final name?

In another group I am in we had a poll but none of the names stuck. This was the results of the top winners. "The Polish Gehenna" 28%, "The Great Polish Genocide" 12 %,"Poland's Double-Genocide" 12%,"Poland's Unknown Holocaust" 10%. All great names yet why is it none have stuck where if you bring it up everyone knows what we are talking about?
My God this many people’s lives messed up and so many people that don’t know the truth. I want one name that speaks to the magnitude of what Polish people went through from 1939-1945 in eastern Poland, be it by the Russians, Germans, SS Ukrainians or Jewish survivors. I think if all Catholic’s left or were killed in Poland as with Jewish; the ones that lived would have been in the “Holocaust” group. Seeing as how so many stayed under communist rule and were to be silenced and ones in new countries spread nation wide stayed silenced for the sake of loved ones in Poland. This group has been put off for to long.

Carol Celinska Dove

“Seeing as how so many stayed under communist rule and were to be silenced and ones in new countries spread nation wide stayed silenced for the sake of loved ones in Poland. This group has been put off for to long.” (Celinski)

No – the Poles in other nations did not stay silenced, as you put it, for the sake of the “loved ones in Poland”. It was the UK and the USA governments that did not want to hear what the Poles newly arrived in the west had to say about the entire matter. Polish comments regarding the deportation were inconvenient and embarrassing to the Western Governments which did not want to see themselves as having betrayed the good faith of the Polish nation. It was easier for them to ignore the Poles than to admit their own political incompetence and their having been outwitted by someone they considered to be a Soviet peasant and simpleton – ie. Stalin.

If the younger generation of Poles in Poland are unaware of what happened to their own compatriots under Soviet rule in the 1940s, surely it is up to the Polish Government to do something about this. And if they don’t, then perhaps it is time for expatriates to put some pressure on the Polish Government in general and on the Ministry of Education in particular to right this wrong. There has been plenty of time – 18 years – to correct any educational errors.
The Poles love America – so give them a taste of American politics: start lobbying. Prevent members of the Polish Parliament from entering the Parliament buildings until they listen. Prevent them from getting re-elected if they are ineffectual. Organise petitions. Write to the newspaper editors. Propose newspaper articles. Write books.

omniba


Yes, you are right and this was another part I neglected to recall. As far as educating Poland it's not just Poland and information is surfacing faster than ever. It is for that reason I feel a name will help everyone from educators to ones covering politics nation wide.
Carol

Easily recognisable names for particular occurrences are usually spontaneously born during the course of much discussion about those events. The Impressionists, for example, didn’t call themselves impressionists: the word was used in a slightly derogatory (or at least ironic) way by one of their critics. It just stuck. Now most people don’t remember who started the name off – but everyone knows what Impressionism is. And here we have the first problem: there doesn’t appear to be much interest in this 1940s Deportation and little if any discussion. Not only here on this forum, but anywhere else.

The second problem arises from the fact that most of those personally involved are dead or dying off – sixty seven years have passed.

The third problem is that having been ignored for so long and so thoroughly, the Poles involved, or at least a great majority of them, have sought to forget the Deportation if only to save themselves from going mad with frustration, and to be able to live as normal a life as possible.

It would also appear that the Polish people are strangely non-vindictive. Had they been a little more inclined in that direction you would probably not only have a name by now for the Deportation, you’d probably be slightly the richer for compensation. Just think!

A fourth problem lies with a Polish tendency to think that someone somewhere will do something that will somehow put things right! This will not happen. It is up to the Poles – it is high time to end this lethargy. Especially as there is an excellent and fairly recent example to prove that it is a very “every nation for itself” world, in spite of mewing to the contrary: if I remember rightly, the British Government told the Polish Government to disarm in May, 1939, so as not to provoke Hitler! The Poles obeyed! The rest is history.

[
quote=omniba] strangely non-vindictive [/quote]
omniba,

You make some great points. I also would almost get frustrated over the nonchalant non-vundictive attitude. Even within the safety of family they opted for silence vs reliving the horrors bestowed upon them. My family being Roman Catholic was taught even in church to forgive and forget.

If you have not checked out Krey-Siberia @Yahoogroups.com we are now over 700 members.

You bring up more reason why this "naming" of a time, place and actions needs to move along. This is so true and when they have their names added to a memorial wall, receive Siberian cross or watch as Poland lights candles in Warsaw on the main day of deportation I assure you across a nation other unseen candles are burning. A name is also saying we see what took place and will remember the families that suffered or perished.


Most important it makes what happened important enough to be named. Just the fact that this many people were involved and we sit here in 2007 looking to finally place a name is so very wrong. What my family and people did not do in 1939-2007 I need done.

Carol Celinska Dove/ USA

No they didnt,Anders army was formed in the middle east,Iran and Syria principaly, yes they did recieve Poles freed from the Soviet union but the army never fought with or under the Soviets,it was always a part of the "western" alliance,closely aligned with the British and commenwealth forces who equipped them. The Army that was formed in the Soviet union came about as a "second wave" of realesee's from various gulags,this force became the LWP,or Polish peoples army,and fought alongside the Soviet RKKA all the way to Berlin,many pictures of the fall of Berlin show troops in the distinctive four tipped Rogat'.

You may be forgeting that the true democratic "free" government of Poland carried on in Exile in London,if the UK didnt want to know why was the legitimate PL govt' here?

Yes,because prior to that the Polish government/dictatorship-lite,under smigly ridz was getting ready to Ally itself with Nazi germany...

I think,in the end,the name you are looking for has been there all along , World War Two. Each nation involved had its fair share of horrers bestowed on it,you seem to be looking for a catch all phrase to describe innumerable different sorts of suffering,from occupation to deportation,to wide a feild,as someone else put it,Ththe Poles themselves have a name for the deportations,it seems to meen simply, to siberia, that should be enough for anyone with a modicum of historical knowladge,anyone else is simple not going to be interested ,just because the "Holocaust" was given that name doesnt mean everyone knows or cares about it,and I ask you to tell me what the Pojramos was? A name but little known.

isthatu,

I don't know what "Pojramos" was? Are you going to tell me? Carol

Its basicaly "the devouring" ,the genocide of Europes Roma and Sinti population by the nazis,a hideous parrallel to the holocaust where gypsies were treated the same as the jews,ie,in the east,lined up and shot and in Poland and elswhere sent to ghettos then death camps.The Gypsy population of Auschwitz was finaly killed off on August the 1st and 2nd '44,including 400 ex german soldiers,pulled from the front lines to the concentration camps. Where as the worlds jewish population has now a degree of protection thanks to the suffering of their forefathers Europes Gypsies are still treated as scum,as witnessed by many statements on this forum for example.
In the UK a few years ago, a young gypsy boy was shot in the back by a farmer(ok,not a great example as he was a burglar ) as he left the scene of his crime, the boy was 16 years old and running away when he got the full force of a shotgun in his back ending his life before he had a chance to maybe change his ways. The farmer was sent to prison for murder but a significant section of the UK population saw him as some kind of hero,not a child killer( the boy was unarmed and running before anyone cries self defence) at my then place of work I got into a argument after keeping quiet as some old crones gossiped about how right he was to kill the boy, I asked,rather crypticaly whether John Wayne would shoot someone,a boy,in the back(as JW is something of a hero to this type) and they looked at me baffled,not getting it at all.They then went on to discuss the best soloution to the " Gypsy question would be to put them all in a feild and machine gun them..." I pointed out this had already been done in europe,by the Naziz and not one of them,resonably well educated as they were, belived me,all said,no,that was the jews and wasnt that terrible ,but,as they saw it,the gypo's deserved it........

I guess what I was trying to say was,many things that are important to us through family connections or other newer ties may not even register on other peoples radar even if the event/problem is publicised or given a catchy name. Hollywood made Shindlers List,the world now knows a (slightly distorted,read the far superior and evenly balanced book by tomas kenelly) bit about the holocaust, A Polish film company made And the Violins Stopped Playing,and a few of us now know about the gypsy genocide. Has katyn even got a release in the States or UK? Im sure Polish americans/brits will try to see it and others interested in Poland will too ,but it will always be a niche.

No the film, "Katlyn" just being released in Poland it seems in the US it will be quite a wait.
I understand what you mean about "gypsy genocide" being overlooked. They could be incorparated into a group as "Tarters" also are on the burner. Point being a name must be established. We have to start somewhere. I am of the first gen born on USA soil.

Carol

What became known as the “Anders’ Army” was actually formed on Soviet soil, and then evacuated to Iran (Persia, as was) together with some 10,000 civilians. Indeed they never fought on Soviet soil, but after due preparation in the Middle East took part in the Italian Campaign (Monte Cassino etc).
I refer those who wish to find out more about this army aka. 2nd Polish Corps to the Sikorski Institute and Museum in London, UK.
The Polish ex-prisoners-of-war and other able bodied Polish ex-deportees who did not manage to get to southern USSR in time for the evacuation, or for whom there was no place on the ships crossing the Caspian Sea to Iran, subsequently enrolled in the Kosciuszko Army which fought the Germans alongside the Red Army.

It is quite true that during the war there was an ad interim Polish Government representing free Poland in the UK. However, as news of Soviet atrocities committed against Poles started transpiring, there was fear on the side of the Allies that any awkward comment or criticism of the Soviets might rock an already precarious agreement of mutual collaboration between the UK, USA and USSR, and might jeopardize the entire war effort.

Remember that until 1941 the USSR were friends with Nazi Germany. Another turn of the coat would have meant little or nothing to them, seeing they were already so very well practiced in such actions.

It is logical and reasonable that the UK Government was much more interested in a happy outcome of the war for its own citizens rather than for those of a foreign country. That is how things should be, but though sometimes terrible things have to be done for the general good it doesn’t necessarily follow that no shame is felt about them. Once the Yalta agreements were signed the die was cast – there was no going back and the Poles were on their own.

In the end there was no choice for the UK but to ignore Polish remonstrations and that is what they did. Nonetheless the cost to Poland, both spiritual and psychological, was incalculable.

And thank you for that little titbit of Soviet propaganda - it feels just like the "good old days".

Thank you for clearing that up. My grandfather was in the 2nd corps as to what they called themself while in Russia I should say, "Polish Army" they joined the main mobilizing center in Buzuluk in 1942. As we type back and forth I am even more convinced as to the task at hand.

If many speak united we can at long last place a name to this time in Polish history?

Thank you so much for your information, Carol

united

How about tackling the issue from another direction? How about putting pressure on the Polish Government to have a National day of Remembrance for the deported.
I know that one of these transports left on the 13th of April 1940. Have the church bells ring on that day, and a two minute silence – shops, offices, schools – everything to come to a two minute halt. It’s not very original but it is very efficacious, because you’ll have people asking “why?”. Get the church to organise masses in every Cathedral with all the faithful carrying a lighted candle.
And call it the Day of the Forgotten.