What name should we use for 1939-45 deportation of Polish to Siberia?

No. That was done by Poles and that was obviously wrong and we don't hide It today but It also shouldn't be forgotten that It was ordered by "Polish" government, which didn't have serious support of Poles and existed only because of Soviet support and that the reason behind deportation was that UPA (army of Ukrainian nationalists - both anti-Soviet and anti-Polish) units moved to that area and It was very hard to fight them in mountain area, so they decided to deport the whole civilian population from that region, which was a primitive solution and definately wrong but It wasn't like "we don't like them, so let's destroy their culture".

To put it bluntly Poland was screwed.

In "katyn" movie the Polish men that were to fight were told to disarm and told to assemble to receive orders. We all know today what happened to them.

Next, Stalin deported the Polish families to Siberia to work as slaves until they died there. They were unarmed reserve families that fought on the front line in WW1. This was started up to 4 weeks prior to when the first trains left on Feb. 10, 1940.

In fact, it was all Polish that were to be taken from the face of the earth. This was Hitler’s plan as Germany and Russia worked together. Germany decided on starting with Jewish Poles, documents at Hoover and eye witness accounts confirm this.

The rest is history.

Actions by Ukraine

http://genocide007.webpark.pl/index.html

Actions of Soviets

http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/soviet_deportations/dapd.htm l

1939 :
THE OUTBREAK OF SECOND WORLD WAR
and FOURTH PARTITION OF POLAND

1939 - 1941
Poland under Soviet and German occupation



http://www.rymaszewski.iinet.net.au/3maps.html

I have included a few very good sites. 1939 - 1941
Poland under Soviet and German occupation

The map shows how Poland was divided in 1939 under the German-Soviet agreement signed by Hitler and Stalin.

The Germans incorporated Pomerania, Posnania and Silesia into the Reich whilst the rest was designated as the General-Gouvernement, a colony ruled from Cracow by Hitler's friend, Hans Franek.

The Soviets took and absorbed into the USSR the eastern half. They divided this occupation into Western Belorussia and Western Ukraine, and a small area was allocated to Lithuania (together with Wilno, now Vilnius) as a temporary deceit before the whole of Lithuania was also soon occupied by the Soviet Union.

The Nazis murdered hundreds of thousands of Poles, especially Polish Jews. The Communists also murdered a comparable number of Poles or sent them to slave camps and gulags where 50 percent of them died.

Carol

just out of interest... how many iraqis have the americans murdered...?

to many, Carol

Ok, thanks Greg. So was it Berling's units, or commo partisans who did that to the civilians?

Consider Hitler's plan for Poles. Extermination.
Stalin and Hitler agreed on that, and plans were drawn between NKVD and Gestapo to completely exterminate the Polish nation by the year 1975. Deportations were not meant as temporary or half measures. The deportees were treated as death row inmates, who might have as well done some work in Siberia before they died.

IMO, deportations cannot be isolated from other historic events, and they were clearly a part of the genocide process intended to eliminate an ethnic group.

Zesłańcy

Can you tell me the meaning of "Zeslancy"?
Thanks, Carol

yes we did,we invaded neutral Norway!...oh wait,er,um........


cheese eating surrender monkey's

Not a trick question,but did Poland invite Britain to send forces to Poland itself? I know france would only allow our forces in once france was threatened by the nazis on the 3rd.


like the broken record this debate is, we only gave shelter to thousands of Poles and helped them form two armies and an airforce and then gave homes to those who chose not to go back to russian held Poland after the war,so I would say,in the grand scheme of things "were" about even,considering the 360.000 British citizins who would have lived had Britain chosen to let europe destroy itself while we stayed neutral as could so easily have been the case. If that had happened,the US would never have joined the war and I can see only 2 possible out comes for presant day Poland if that had been the case,either A, the nazis got there way and murdered evry Pole by 1975 as planned or the Soviets would still be in ultimate control over Poland to this day.

If you go to Roosevelt files in his Presidential library it tells a tale. USA was unaware of deportees in Siberia. In one letter when Stalin was asking for more planes, Roosevelt says sure but first you must come clean as to what is in Siberia because we will bring the planes over the Ural mountains. Stalin never comes clean but low and behold he gets his planes. Would there have been a differance had the US known? British, Germany, Russia, Ukrainian and Jewish and the USA all ended up turning and stabbing Poland in the back. In the end they really got shafted. But we now can have a new ending as Poland is at last free.

I must say I think the biggest error in judgement was putting all the WW1 front line (see Osadnik) in eastern Poland. If this was a chess game vs. life check mate was taken for granted. Carol

LOL ! So you say that Poles should be gratufel that they were "allowed" to defend Britain ? You've got to be kidding me.



Easily what ? Are you serious ? France and UK practically stayed neutral but Gerries attacked anyway. Both France and UK didn't want war, so were pushing Germans and Soviets to destroy each other (didn't giving a damn about Poland and others, who were between them) but overplayed the whole game because Adolf decided to attack western Europe before he turned on Soviets. In relations with Poland you did sh*it. Admit your mistake and get over that.

It was well organized action done by LWP and other armed formations of Polish People's Republic. That happened in 1947, so there weren't any other Polish armed forces except few small groups of fanatical anticommunists.

Poland kicked butt when it was time to help Britian, remember the Polish hero's!

Please remember when Poland was fighting they were aware that they had been "Betrayed" and yet they didn't turn and say screw this, no they were "hero's" for that moment in time. In memory of "Czeslaw Celinski", WW1 front line medal for bravery cost for home on state owned land in eastern Poland, WW11 ticket to USA. Czeslaw refused to accept medals from Britian until 1989 when the country he loved and lost to communism was free. His granddaughter, Carol

And who TF were these Polish soldiers defending? You got some nerve.
Without foreigners (from the colonies and from countries such as US, Poland or Czecholsovakia) Britain did not stand a chance against Germany. The best case scenario for the British would have been serious destruction of the country.

Britain NEEDED those soldiers and that air force. If Britain gave a f*ck about Poland they would have at least tried doing something in 1939. They did squat, save foir a postcard or two sent to Germany in the so called "protest".
Briatain neutral? Like Belgium or Holland? Not a chance. Neutrality is not automatic by a declaration of one country. Hitler would have never treated Britain as a neutral country. It was strategically and economically impossible either for Germany or Britain.


The American industry was itching to join the war nearly from day one. Do you realize how much money the likes of Chrysler, Ford and other made on WW2. Do you have any concept of global economy which, in the light of possible German rule in Europe, would have seriously hindered the American economy? How old are you? 12?

z_darius,

Wow, Thank you did you hear me applauding. I think a nation forget that Britian were greeting the Polish army in the streets. Maybe I have at last come up with a name. "Our Polish Forgotten Heros 1939-45". What do you guys think? Carol

"Our forgotten heroes" is a nice name.

There's a street (actually a roundabout) in Warsaw called 'Rondo Zeslancow Syberyjskich" or 'Siberian Exiles' Roundabout'.

I'm not sure if this refers to the WW2 deportations or earlier political punishments. Siberian Exiles or Siberian Deportees seems an appropriate description. I think the medal that the Polish Government is giving to survivors of that terrible time refers to them as Siberian Exiles.

er,defend britain from the middle east and later Normandy,are you for real,if britain hadnt let the Poles from france in the Germans would have had them,if britain hadnt sponsored Anders the Russians would have had his guys. Get over it.

Er,you know that bit of water between England and France? Adolf didnt want to or ever intend to launch an attack across it. And the only reason he turned west and invaded france in 1940 was because she had declared war against germany for attacking Poland. France and Britain could have quite easily stood back and let Poland go the way of Czechoslovakie and stayed neutral but they didnt and got dragged into a war for the sake of a scrap of paper.
alraedy answered, just what did Polands depleted,unarmed forces do to "Defend" britain? Sure,once reequiped with british uniforms and areoplanes 2 squadrons of the PAF helped out in the battle of britain but the rest of your forces went overseas attempting to defeat Germany by tagging along with larger armies,such as ours.


Like what exactly? Fly planes from britain that at that time could just about reach hligoland? We did,and bombed what we could reach. Or maybe somehow magic our armiy accross the channel,over a couple of international borders(one neutral) and somehow land in Germany in the 3 weeks Poland was still,slightly,viable?


Rubbish! You have a stream between you and Germany,we have the channel. All records show that Hitler was desperate to keep Britain neutral,even as late as 1940/41 peace feelers were being put out. Hitler was interested in an "eastern "empire,we had one further east that he wanted to trade with,not conquor. So,Even though you were overrun in weeks and britain didnt pull a bunny out of the hat by some how attacking an immpossible to reach germany,I think its about time this subject was looked at with clarity and maturity not silly feelings of national "ooh,the whole world always lets us down....".
Yes,america made its money trading with both sides,you really dont have a clue do you...the isolationist movemnet in the states was far stronger than you seem to think, the war was only joined once JAPAN attacked Pearl Harbour,the USA's primery aim was always the destruction a japan first,the only reason it got tied up in a european war was becase ONE country stuck it out till then,Britain,like it or not,if we hadnt,with the help of our dominions and a few allies sure, the US would have stayed out and let europe fall to its fate. A united europe ,a strong trading partner for the states,and as happened anyway after the war, a buffer against the soviet union.
BTW,Darius, you demonstrate a stunning level of maturity with your snidey little comments,keep it up mate and the whole world will start to belive the stereotype of the Whiney Pole who blames everyone else for their countries problems and never take a shred of responsibility or show any gratitude whatsoever,ah well.

They would "had them" how ? Those from France would have been sent to the POW camps, those from SU would have fought on the eastern front. Britain simply needed canon meat, that why "took" them.



BS. If Gerries didn't attack you would do sh*it, they knew that.



LOL ! If Farnce and UK had any honor and admitted that they don't give a damn about the whole "alliance" Poland would have joined Germany and together with Italy and Japan from the east (as was the initial plan of Adolf) would have attacked Soviets and after that victory France and UK would be at mercy of this alliance.



Uhh... Like French attacking Germany (which left hardly any forces on the western border) with their huge land army and UK with own huge navy strating naval blockade of Germany and sending air and land forces to help the French ?



This is too funny. Maybe you should finally admit that your country was then run by cowards and you did sh*t instead of writing, how you "saved" others ?

It's not only that you did nothing. You weren't going to respect the alliance you signed from the beggining. Gerries knew that, how else do you think they would have left only 14 divisions on the western borser ? That would be a disaster If France and Britain attacked. You were cynically pushing other countries to war just to save your sorry ass.

This is part 5 to view the 1-5 follow link. Carol

well at least your now admiting you would have been happy to join up with the nazis, about time we had some honesty around here.
as to the rest of your counter "argument" your just letting yourself down,either contradicting yourself or supporting my claims...let it lie dawg.

and just what has france attacking or not attacking germany got to do with britain? france was the big continental european power,maybe you'd be better saving your misguided vitriol for them.

again,if as you yourself say, hitler only attacked us because we declared war on him,why would we have done that,we would have been better served just letting all the tin pot dictatorships of europe smash themselves up,but we didnt,we got dragged into a war that cost us hundreds of thousands of lives and an empire,for what? so 60 years down the line ill informed Poles can insult the memories of our fallen,? you guys are a moaning disgrace,not a spot on your grandparents generation,they knew the score and were greartfull for all they got from "us". shame you lot had 60 years of communism,but that aint "our" fault.

I'm not admitting anything. That was a plan of Adolf.

"We did shi*t. That was wrong" - can't you say that ? Is that too difficult ?

well,if you want the world to go with your victim mentality ,fine. Im not playing along,anyone who knows anything about the subject in anydepth knows what you claim is complete tripe,and insulting garbage to all the veterens both "ours" and " yours".
Just a question big G, when your alone,do you argue with yourself? none of your arguments seem to make much logical sense is all......

Where did I say that ?



That was exactly what you were trying to do.

No sir, you are a moaning disgrace. You can't admit that your country was wrong even If that's damn obvious.

oh,boo hoo, "our magnificent horse born army was let down by the big bad tea sipping british army who couldnt miracelously fly a thousand miles into germany and shag hitler up his shnitzel"

.....................

ok,gettin silly now G,Ill admit that,but
JUST WHAT COULD BRITAIN HAVE DONE IN THE THREE WEEKS BEFORE POLAND WAS CRUSHED?????????????????????????????????????
Just answer that,with sensible options,and I may have more respect for your replies.

It's not really what Britain could have done but rather what at least could try to do. Did you move any forces to France AFTER 3rd September ? Did you even have any forces preapered to be deployed in Europe ? How many German cities your air force and navy bombed in September 39 ? How many Germany ships were sunk ?

Yes,My greatGrandfathers unit was one,we had even mobilized our territorial forces( basicaly home defence forces) for service overseas.

Yes,of course we did,they were called the BEF and were opperational in Europe by mid October,correct me if Im wrong,but 2 weeks after the fall of Poland,no?

Our Bombers of the time were not the huge Lancasters of later years, the range of our bombers made any attacks on Germany proper immpossible at that time (france on the other hand,sharing a border ,had no such excuse).
As you may or may not know,Germany was heavily protected by sea mines,these take weeks to clear,and the closest our navy could have hoped to get to would be maybe hamburg or bremerhaven,that is if the U boat fleet had let it het there,past the mines and land based aircraft of the lufftwaffe.

I dont have the figures but Britain lost some shipping,including civilian liners in this time.
What you have to remember G is,the land based part of the plan was always for france to launch the initial strike,sharing as it did a border with Germany. Britain,as the junior partner of the 2,had to follow the french example,it couldnt have launched an attack on Germany through France as Britains armed forces there came under the ultimate command of the French high command.
Dont get me wrong,I understand the frustration you may feel as so many Brits trot out the "we went to war for Poland " card without actually realising how little we acheived for Poland in the long run.
I have to say,IMHO,at that time Britain did all it could,little as that proved to be. But I stand by my argument,there were plenty of people in Britain who did so much for the free Poles from '40 onwards that it is just insulting to their memory to hear such throw away comments . Of course Poland ended up under Soviet domination in 45,so Britain "failed" to restore Polands freedom as had been a stated aim on decleration of war,but as you have to admit,what chance did an exhausted tiny island nation,bancrupt and at the other end of europe have of going up against the might of the Soviet steamroller?

OK but It was obvious that the war is coming weeks before 1st September. Why weren't they moved to France or at least were waiting prepared on the coast ?



Well, Poland didn't sign any official capitualation, so why didn't they attack ? Were there at least prepared any plans of attack or were they only simply moved there ?



I know but when where air force units moved to France ? Airplanes then didn't need airfields like in modern times. They could use a pieace of flat field.



That's quite obvious but what British government told French in early September ? Were they criticizing them ? Did they say "attack Germans, we will join you as fast as It is possible" ?