What name should we use for 1939-45 deportation of Polish to Siberia?

This is better isnt it G'? A mature discusion,I gues I fell into the trap of,to quote a Polish AK veteren freind of mine," my country right or wrong".

Right,to try and answer some of your questions;

Ok,the ins and outs are like this, France was at the time the big european Superpower ( hard to belive now but thought true back then.). France had no interest in allowing British forces into the country as they feared this would be a provocation to germany. France was having trouble mobilising as the country,frankly was in chaos and had octiginerian leaders. This all changed by the time france declared war on germany though and they were then glad to have British forces come over to France to help defend against any possible attack.( yes,with hindsight we know this wasnt going to happen for 6 months but hindsights always 20/20).
The British Forces that did get to france,as I say,by mid Oct when the Polsih forces and Govt' had collapsed,/gone to Romania, were under the supreme command of the French,and had to take orders from them,so no french attack,no British attack,simple as that.
As for waiting prepered on the coast, you cant keep an army at full preperation for weeks on end,it breaks, and all armies have to go through ports,the mobilisation of an army,as the Poles also found out takes weeks.

sorry,might have answered that already ,but, Ok,no official capitulation but you have to admit,by mid October Poland was firmly under nazi/soviet occupation,in which case,with the lack of knowladge about the appalling situation there it would have been thought more prudent to wait and attack germany when allied forces had been built up significantly .( for an idea how weak allied forces were at that time witness the fall of France and belguim in 5 weeks.). As for prepered plans of attack,Im sure there were,but in the end,Britain as the Junior partner had to follow france,and her idea was break german forces on the maginot line,ie,sit around and wait for the germans to come and invade france then defeat them...that didnt turn out too well either...So yes,in a way,British forces were "simply only moved there", france wanted more troops in france,and got them, I have a letter one of my uncles wrote to his father at the time expressing his frustration at being "stuck in a french field waiting for jerry,instead of going out and finding the party(fight)".


Yes,you are right, airforce units were moved to france,primerely fighter aircraft which could use grass airstrips. When we did send our bombers up over german lines they were slaughtered,one famous account is of a bomber squadren,flying something called a fairy battle,sounds 'ard,looked like a long Hurricane,but was a slow deathtrap, all 12 bombers assualted a german bridge, one by one they were shot out of the sky,but not one tried to turn back,all were lost.
Yes,one acount of RAF "bombing " raids does tell of dropping Propaganda leaflets on german cities rather than bombs,but seeing as only lone bombers could get through the bomb load then possible would have done little or no damage ,and,something I find quite heartning(nieve as it turned out) the RAF high command didnt want to "be like the barbarian lufftwaffe"and risk killing civilians.(of course this changed,but thats another story.).

Some parts of the Government were,other parts wernt,thats the problem of democracy in wartime. The main reason was simple,British armed forces were simply not strong enough to launch an attack on germany singlehandedly,for the same reason Polands forces were unable to defend Poland, Nobody wanted to rock the boat,people thought the silly corporal with the funny moustash would go away,and those who didnt saw re armement as a possible provocation for germany to declare war. Misguided but not betrayl.

For Heaven's sake!!!! What a load of nonsense. That was never on the books. Germany couldn't see Poland as an ally - no way! Poland was always meant to be cleared to make space for the Germans - the Nazis considered Poles sub-human - slave material destined to be eliminated once the "use-by" date had expired.
As for the Poles - they would never have allied with the Nazis - there has never been any love lost between the two nations.
Anyway, the British Parliament knew that any British help was simply pro forma at that time - the Polish western border was far too long for any effective assistance. It's all in the memos from that time.
Obviously the British hoped in some miracle - everybody did. The army etc. were simply not ready. Don't forget that the First World War had depleted the country (UK) both economically and in man-power. Even the military airplanes from that period couldn't have covered the distance between the UK and Germany!

Quite true, remember, when the Polish/Jewish kid shot the german diplomat in france the reprecusions on Poles in Germany were as severe as against the jews.Although feelers had been put out by the Polish govt re a form of non aggression pact between Poland and Germany,this was never likely to have been taken seriously by either side and seen only as delaying the inevitable.

said in five lines what i tried in about 2 pages :). My hat is doffed to you:)

Zesłańcy = exiles.

Poles had been deported to Siberia for a long time before the onset of communism. For example all those who took any stance against the Tsar or fought for a free Poland during the partition of the country and were in the section governed by Russia, were sent to Siberia, if they didn't manage to escape in time. They were called Zesłańcy.

The difference between them and the 40s group was the magnitude of the latter, and the fact that they weren’t politically active as were their forerunners. Nonetheless, the 1940s group were condemned to five years of exile for being bourgeoisie, hence corruptors of “the people”. During these five years they were not allowed to move from wherever the NKVD sent them. The NKVD is the old name of the KGB, by the way.

I don’t know whether this was a general rule, but the deportees were not allowed to work until they had got rid of all their possessions brought from Poland – this of course regards those who were given the chance to pack anything in the first place, something that didn’t always happen.

They sold their possessions for food and once there was nothing left to sell they could get work (barn clearing/cleaning, wood cutting etc). The payment for a day’s work was on the lines of a handful of millet, or similar, per person. It was, in effect, slave labour, though ordinary slaves were normally given more to eat seeing they were a paid-for property and meant to be profitable.

When some deportees, on being unloaded from the cattle trains, asked the NKVD officer how they were meant to survive, they were told that they were not supposed to survive – they were supposed to die, only the term used was that for animals ie. zdechnąć. The term for people would have been umrzeć, or the Russian equivalent thereof.

Lord! That was quick!

Invasion of Poland/1939: Britain Declares War

Sept. 1 Poland attacked/ Sept. 3 Britain Declares war

Well one tries to be a gentleman every now and again. :)
and your point? I think this may already have been covered, shall I give another set of dates, Poland attacked 1st sept '39,Britain declares war 3rd sept'39 America enters war aginst germany,21st(maybe22nd) of december 1941,only after hitler declares war........

My grandfather was front line "The miracle at Wisla" under the leadership of "Juzef Pilsudski" when the independence of Poland 1920 was won. He was 20th cavalry division.

Instead of a medal for bravery (Osadnik) he was given the "State of Poland" land, better known today as "Kresy". Others were able to buy the property through the goverment. When Russia started the deportation process it was families and soldiers that were first sought out. In fact it was the Jewish and Ukraine neighbors that pointed out where they lived.

He escaped death 3 times, first at "Kresy", next as a soldier in WW1 the Germans captured him and he was sentenced to die, saved by combatants" and when "Russians were going to kill him in Kresy". His life spared (This was rare and I have not heard of others spared like this, Ukraine families he housed and feed and taught to read and write, asked that he be spared) he was sent to Siberia. Upon amnesty he set to work setting up home army on Russia soil, meeting with the main mobilizing center in "Buzuluk". He continued to fight and joined 2nd Corps under joint allied command. In 1949 he was honorably discharged from British services. 1951 migrates to the USA.

Someday I want to go there and see for myself the land and country he loved and fought for so much.

He started fighting for a free Poland at 15 years old. In 1989, when he saw Poland free he at last accepted the medals that "communist Poland" had been trying to give him. Thank God he lived to see that day. On 17, July 1992 he passed away. At his funeral his comrades bid him farewell:
"Remembering his services we salute and honor his departing with the words of soldiers song": "Sleep comrade in peace and dream of free Poland from your foreign grave." Carol

What a touching story Carol. Thanks for sharing. We are losing a great generation of people to the sad march of time.
k.

I wanted to share original film clips but you tube took a bit to show up. Carol

OK, let's say that It's all French's fault but why didn't Britain admitted that in case of war simply can't do anything and left the alliance ? I tell you why - because then Poland would have to became a junior ally of either Germany or Soviets. The whole alliance was not really about helping Poland but about keeping Poland away from alliance with one of those 2 countries.

Adolf saw bolshewism as the biggest enemy. He was impressed by Polish victory in 1920. He was thinking about joint attack on Soviets by Germany, Poland, Italy and Japan from the east. In Poland of course there wasn't much sympathy for nazis or any other Germans but Poland was between Sovets and Germans, who sooner or later were going to fight each other, so had either choose one of them or find other allies. Alliance with Soviets was out of question but Germans were seen as much more civilized and until about 38 this kind of alliance wasn't impossible. But then Germany was becoming more agressive and France confirmed alliance with Poland, Britain joined soon later - the whole thing proved to be useless but in that time It seemed to be rational, however If France and GB openly admitted that they don't want to fight then Poland would probably have joined Germany. The whole "subhumans" crap was actually a result of 1st lack of anti-Soviet alliance 2nd ressistance during occupation. Look that most of countries in Central Europe were during WW2 on the side of Germany - like Slovaks for example, who genetically are almost the same people like Poles - nazis didn't mind that until they were useful for them.

Hitlers plan was to wipe out all Poles, he just started with Jewish. Poland when attacked in Sept 39 waited for the British to help. What is amazing to me is when no one came to help and Warsaw fell, Polish fleeing the homeland 200,000 joined English and French, the others were German/Russia POW's or simply dead.

We had Polish soldiers fighting where ever there were Germans.

Used bravely to defend Norway and France, 1940

Fought in "The Great Flight Battle of Britian"

On the Atlantic there were Polish Battleships and Aircraft

Polish Corps used in No. Africa, "Defense of Tobruk"

When Hitler invaded Soviet Union, Poland joined USSR and in Soviet country 2 Polish armies. One to go with Russia aafter fleeing German army to the west (after Stalingrad) while the other went to liberate Italy.

Look at Monte Cassino, English and Americans couldn't conquer the hill in "130 day", Polish soldiers made it in "2nd Attempt".

This is without taking into consideration the , "Katyn" deaths of their army and "Our Polish Forgotten" in Siberia or dead from that.

Sorry I couldn't help pointing out a few historical facts I will not even go into Aug. 1, 1944, Poland starting Warsaw rising and for 63 days held it without any help. Ok thats it I'll not get into that now. Carol

ok so I lied, if we go by the historical telegrams, Polish that just helped everyone else including Soviets trying to reclaim their country, hummm

RAF sends a few planes but to many are shot down.

US and Brits ask Stalin for permission to land, Stalin says "no". Many weeks the US try to talk Stalin into helping the Poles, Stalin prefered to see it smashed rather than see an independent Poland.

Aug. 20 Roosevelt /Churchill telegrams still trying to work on Stalin to help.

Aug. 22 Stalin's reply. "They are a handful of criminals in Warsaw.

Aug. 25 Stalin, If supplys are dropped you will see what happens.

Aug. 26 Roosevelt tells Churchill I will not be able to join in any more messages to, "Uncle Joe". Being busy on the western front he felt they should not continue to antaganise Soviets.

At the peek of this battle Germany was dropping bombs every 20 min.

This I feel was the biggest political error.

Poland hears of "Paris being libirated" late Aug, this was when alone they knew they were unable to win.

Poland started escaping by using sewers, right under German fighters. German soldiers would throw gas grenades down into sewers.

As for the Soviets watching from the side lines, any that tried to help Poland were shot.

After 63 days, Germany stopped a very bloody fight by Poland, 180,000 killed and 85% of the city destroyed.

Ok I am done for now. "God bless Poland" Carol

I know but all of that happened in and after 39.

Well I was looking for a name from 1939-45 so I wanted to add this information. Do you want me to do WW1 next. lol I must say I have not spent as much time on the military vs. finding family. I find the military aspect so interesting and it shows how strong we are. My grandfather would flex his arms and say, "strong like bull". I look at mentally how strong we are. Be it WW1 or WW2 as above message tells, Polish army have been through the ultimate test. Carol

Germany has not been seen as a Polish ally since (and before) the times of the Teutonic Knights (Malborg etc. etc.) - that nation has always been looked on as an enemy, or if not directly that, then at least with suspicion. However, if you are so sure of your facts I dare say most of us would be delighted to take a look at any documents you may have which would corroborate what you say. So please inform us. Not stuff from Wikipedia, of course – it is serious things we want - serious links.



Well, first of all I don’t know who you are but I’d like you to omit words like “crap” etc. when you are in a serious discussion with people of many backgrounds, not all of whom are habitués of the slums – a civil tongue is the mark of a gentleman, and something to be strictly adhered to, especially when your English is not exactly of first class order.
Secondly, though it is true that many central European countries were German allies, first and foremost amongst them being Austria – something they have been very busily trying to forget for that past half century – Poland wasn’t one of them. In fact Poland stands out as the first country that actually opposed the Nazi wave. Any tactic Poland may have used to buy time with the Nazis, was simply that: a tactic. It is quite normal, in politics, to sign non-aggression pacts (if that is what you were referring to) – it doesn’t automatically lead to being of the same mind, or to forming alliances against others. I refer you to British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and his discussions with Hitler.

No kidding ?

Maybe but Czechs and Slovaks were considered to be germanic.That is why in CR became the protectorat,more or less a part of the Reich,Slovakia became independant and Poland was dissolved and renamed as eastern teritorries under occupation.Three different solutions for each case.(With Austria it was Anschluss,simply integration).



A great mistake that Westerners did at the time as well.Soviet Union offered to guarantee the borders of Poland if France and GB agreed on a triple alliance.

Which meant that Poland was ready to separate from Danzing?I do not think so.Since the Germans insisted on teritorial claims,there was no way to make an alliance accepted by polish folk.(see Yugoslavia case where alliance with Germans drove the government to collapse the next day).

The whole alliance was due to a smart british tactique to make nations enemies to Hitler.UK wanted the Poles to fight in order to become a nation that would fight Hitler forever and help the allies.

Bla,bla,bla.Only one question.Did the french and british army attack Germany or not?How many german divisions had remained on the West when Germany launched attack against Poland?
German army attacked Poland from three directions.It used almost 80% of its entire force to attack.The allies in the West had opposite to them very scattered,bad equipped troops of second quality since the best divisions of Wehramacht were used in polish front.Why did Germany keep such weak forces in the western front?
Because Hitler knew the allies were not going to attack.How did he know?How?

and bla bla bla,already dealt with. A, who gives a stuff about the french,and B. The british army was no where near any german borders while your country was being crushed. End of ,simple story,get over it.

Never....most people admire Churchill - who was running Poland at this time? certainly didnt make it in to the history books as a 'great' man!

You know! what I wish that England had kept out it!!! Because they get no thanks for any of the efforts they made....

Thank for what? For the betrayal?

It is also notable for the exclusion of all Polish servicemen; hundreds thousands of whom served in the Polish Armed Forces in the West as one of the largest Allied contingents. The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited; it declined because the invitation was not extended to any other Polish units, despite Poland being the fourth largest European ally during WW2. Poles were expected to attend the Moscow Victory Parade of 1945, and the Allies did not want to antagonize Stalin, whose Soviet Union claimed Poland under their sphere of influence.

Good thing Poland didn't stay out of Monte Cassino. Carol

Now, Monte Cassino and Polish is an example of "No Thanks".
If Poland said, we'll be there and back you, they did. Can England and United States say the same? Wouldn't want to upset Germany or Russia so let them destroy the ones that were there for you. My family lost their homeland and I guess you have to be the one starting over in a new country to feel for the Polish that fought alone for their country.


Carol

Here is an interesting article from TIME magazine about Polish-German relations before WWII...Josef Pilsudski & Adolph Hitler had signed a non-agression pact, and apparently
both men had a working relationship...after Pilsudski's death, the succeding Polish leadership apparently lost sight of Pilsudski's plans for Poland in relation to Germany...
from what I have read, the last straw that pushed Germany to attack Poland was a series of massacres of German civilians in the Danzig corridor in 1939...there are rumours that these killings were provoked by communist/alien elements...anyway, I will post the story, and maybe some folks will comment: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760830,00.htmlURL

The war lasted a considerably long time, are we going to pin the success of the war on one instance.




Poland was still Poland, they still had a country. England was bombed pretty badly too..but of course that doesnt matter.

Of course it matters. England suffered destruction during WW2. Probably as much as Poland did every week for nearly 6 years.

Do you really think to a Polish Military "Poland was still Poland". They were no longer a free country but a puppet for "Stalin". Do you know how many lost their lives for FREEDOM. Please don't think the soldiers were merely fighting for lack of something better to do. My Grandfather loved his country, Poland. Or did you think the families that left just went away to visit a strange country, start from scratch and leave everything they ever knew. Please, Carol, USA