What name should we use for 1939-45 deportation of Polish to Siberia?

I have a feeling that most Poles and people of Polish descent take part in forums of this nature because the plight of their country and their families has never been given due (if any) consideration for the past sixty years. That is far too long and it is high time to make amends.
Though it would be interesting to know what the intentions of the antagonistic voices are, perhaps all venting of their spleen could take place on a different thread. In this thread we are dealing with millions of Polish civilians deported to the USSR - something most of the world knew nothing about until very recently and a subject worthy of its own thread, and of some respect.

no,more like being lectured at,and has been demonstrated by more people than just me,on a subject she actually has very little grasp of.
I understand perfectly where she is coming from( on the few occasions she makes any sense) something about her grandpa owning a shed he'd been given after ww1 in someone elses country,20 years later,either before or after the start of ww2,she never seems sure, he is arrested by the NKVD and somehow ends up in America.
The origional question was what name the deprtations should be gven. Lukasz on page one told her what name has already been given........leading to,again;


really, show me one that isnt cut straight from another source that informs anyone of anything beyond her granpas shed.......

yes ,but as already pointed out,you went from wanting a specific name for the siberian deportations on to some ramble about all the other trials and tribulations faced by Poles in WW2,most of which had zip all tpo do with siberia,or indead each other,other than the fact they all took part in ww2

a fine one to talk,with all your remarks against people on here......

hhhmmm lets see,double standards?

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Yes and that is precisely the point. That's the title of the thread and that's what we would like to have the discussion on.



So what ! Are you God or something or a Dictator to tell us what we can or cannot post. You have your view, Carol has hers and i have mine . All are equally important.



Yes, but for those of us who have or have had family who were affected, we know only too well where Carol is coming from. This forum allows everyone to be able to talk about and share these issues and emotions. I do not care about your opinions on this because you are not Polish or of Polish descent.

Therefore, post your views but please do not knock Carol for hers. Quite a few of us are interested in all that she has to say.



You always harangue anybody if they do not agree with your views, you appear to do this with many posters on here. You do not really appear to know how to debate issues without major personal attacs against people.
I have no intention of discussing anything with you as you do appear to be a very aggressive individual. But I shall repeat, leave Carol alone. She is a very worthwhile and interesting member of this Forum and I warmly welcome her posts.

I agree 100% with your post. :)

Then if celinski can continue going on without answering,why not inviting here Crow and one russian nationalist,to start writing without answering?

She has grasp but expresses only one point of view without taking the general environment into account.Like describing the tree while ignoring the forest.This can lead to serious misunderstandings.For example the Soviets did not help the insurgents in Warsaw.The question is whether the British helped any of the partizan anti-nazi movements who were communists to build governement.This is omitted.What did the british troops do in Greece in 1944 and why the Soviets did not intervene then?
Why Hitler kept so much army in Warsaw when every single soldier was desperately needed in the front.Why the Germans fought so much for Warsaw.Who gave weapons to the insurgents.Why the red army entered the city 2 months after the end of the uprising if it was able to do so from first day.All this remains not answered.And again the same documents.

Why don't you go and start a new thread ? Your posts have nothing to do with the title of this one.

:)

They have.Because you isolate a specific action that cannot be understood outside its general environment.In the same way you can evilize everything and other people can make Poland appear evil as well.

Yes but I would refer you to omniba's posting (see message 181 above)

I think it's disrespectful all this arguing on this thread........if you are Polish (?) then please leave this thread to stand on it's own and start up a new thread :)

Why though ? Sometimes you don't. Is there a rule saying one has to answer ?

Why should she have to tae this to a blog.



You don't have to answer......gosh it sounds like some sort of communist interrogation technique lol <g>



Anyone is allowed to do that.........aren't they ?


:)

You do not understand.I am helping you to build a strong argument and not play their game.

This is unacceptable – you sound disparaging here – remember you’re actually dealing with real people who have real sentiments. For you this may be a pastime, a little Saturday evening game, because you’re not personally involved. Others are. We are commenting here and discussing their real history. For them it is no lightweight matter and I’d like you to remember that.

The whole idea of having various threads is that we do not lose sight of the initial question. Put too many things in the pot and you end up with a hotch-potch of rancour. Which is more or less what we are ending up with here.

Part of the reason for not giving all information is I feel it is personal and nothing is gainned. It will not bring back my loved ones or change the past. All any of us can do is pray it is never repeated.


Czeslaw Celinski was taken on his way home Lewkowce, Poland (now Ukraine) and placed under arrest for bullsh*t. He was placed in a shed that was filled with other WW1 reserve soldiers. They watched as others were linned up and shot (exicuted). While in this shed a wagon became stuck and they let the captives out to push wagon. Czeslaw at the back of wagon went under it and when he saw the slighest chance to escape, he bolted to the woods. This was prior to Sept. 1st, 1939. He made it back home and when they (Russian soliders)came to his home in Jan. 1940 he was to be killed there. This time it was his Ukrainian boarders that he housed, feed and taught a group of boys and men to read and write that saved his as*. They were able to convince Russians to spare his life and instead of being killed he was sent to Siberia. As many know documentation was not afforded to family members until 1989. This was the 3rd time he was sentenced to die. The first time was when he was fighting WW1 for a free Poland, it was divided and occupied by Austria, Germany and Russia. He was captured by Germans and before being killed his comrads rescued him. he joinned the, "2nd Infantry Division" shortly before joinning with "20th Calalry Division". Winning the "The Miracle at Wisla" under the leadership of "Juzef Pilsudski". The independance of Poland was won. There isthatu I hope this helps you to understand where I come from.

I came here with some insight but the majority of my time was and is spent finding family still alive in Ukraine and Poland. All I can do is try to learn along with the rest of the group. One thing you may not understand is the trama our families went through. Then to be silenced by "communist Poland" has left many suvivors with partial stories.
In 1951 after fighting for freedom his whole life and having his wife, two daughters and a son dead, he (In 49 he was honorably discharged from British service) he migrates to USA. At the age of 89 he accepted from Polish Councel two military crosses honoring his dedicated life long services for a free country. Even in the USA he fights for a free Poland by refusing to accept military decorations that were continually offered him by "communist Poland". In the USA he was Post 36 of Polish Army Veterans.

I just Thank God he lived to see the day when Polish Eagle was crowned with independence of the III Commonwealth of Poland. Czeslaw passed away 17/7/92. His comrads were there to remember his services, as they saluted and honored his his departing with the words of soldiers song: "Sleep Comrade in Peace and Dream of Free Poland From Your Foreign Grave." His Granddaughter, Carol

Yes, I wish all the brave Polish people who were in similar situations saw it too. Sadly, many died before they saw a Free Poland.

:(


No person or persons can ever demean the Polish spirit, it lives on in all the Polish people and will forever. It is something unique and we look after our own always. :)

Ok,who here was carted off by the NKVD? Hands up at the back,no,OK. Do you mean no members of my family were involved,can I ask how you can know this,all I said is I am not personally Polish......

Sorry,I speak plainly rather than hiding behind sarcasm.

l in r, sorry,Ive already had the "pleasure" of you miss quoting me and acusing me of all sorts of rediculesness before on this forum,please take your high and mighty attitude and use it on someone else who maybe cares if you deign to speak with them......


Quite right, only post what you are comfortable with.


again,thank you for that,have you considerd submiting it to the BBC website,I know they dont have to be "fist person" acounts so you could submit his story.
Not nit picking,but,can you tell me,I admit confusion here, you say your grandfather was arrested "in Poland" by the NKVD , "before" the 1st of sept? How did this come about? I genuinly havnt heard of the NKVD crossing any borders before the 17th of Sept. I now many Poles were being arrested,along with all other nationalities in stalins pre war purges(rossakowski is one) but these all took place within the Soviet union.

When we look into arrest records of our families, reason for arrest was said (in many instances)seen tresspassing on Russian soil. Trumped up charges for sure. Lets face it WW1 soliders were a thorn to Stalin. I have been able to locate some documents on my grandfather, they are held by United Nations and they will not declassify. I at this date wait for documents from Russia, I know they had alot on my family, hopefully I will get them soon.

Note: A few months ago a friend of mine recieved a notice in the mail for her deceased mother. It was a pardon from arrest (amnesy) from Russia, saying she was free now to go as she had been rehabilitated or served her time. I shall ask her if I can share it. Russia is pulling papers from court taking place in 1980's to release us. This has nothing to do with Czeslaw, it just shows the games played. Carol

You meant this in a complimentary way,did you?


Very droll!

How was that possible ?

If you look for the documentation it is there. Carol

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939.2 Eastern Poland was swiftly occupied by Soviet forces and later annexed to the Soviet Union. Thousands of officers, most of them reservists, and soldiers (about 240,000) were taken into detention. The Soviets did not give them POW status.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/Show Page&c=Page&cid=1049114110312

Yes, but this was on and after the 17th of September 1939. Not prior to the 1st September. I think Grzegorz is referring to that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/books/review/Montefiore.t.html


In his section on Stalin’s terror, Ferguson concentrates on an aspect only recently revealed by newly available archives. Stalin, it turns out, regarded not only class as hereditary but cultural characteristics as well, and resolved to purge and deport entire populations like the Poles and Koreans. Ethnic cleansing began in Russia before Hitler took it up. “Whole peoples were ... marked down for destruction.” They would be “crushed under the wheels of the Stalinist juggernaut. ... For Stalin regarded certain ethnic groups within what was still a vast multinational Russian empire as inherently unreliable — class enemies by dint of their nationality.” This part of the terror was less important than the wider terror: “persecuted nationalities accounted for around a fifth of all political arrests,” but, Ferguson adds, “more than a third of all executions.”

yes,this was a commen charge,especially in border areas where trade would occur between villages on either side of the "line".

Can we just clarify, During ww1 Poland was not a sovergien country. Poles fought for Imperial Russia,Austria -Hungary,Germany and also in a legion in France. Stalin would not have given two hoots about ww1 soldiers per se, what I think sealed your Grandfathers fate was fighting in the Polish / Soviet war,which took place in the years immediatly after ww1 and Polands independance.

Also,carol,Im sure you are aware but,Poles were not only deported to Siberia,many also ended up in central asian countries such as Kazakstan,thousands of their desendents still live there to this day.
(maybe this is why Borat speaks Polish not kazak....)

Stalin moved a lot of populations for security reasons in anticipation of german attack or after the attack.They were not only Poles.They were Germans in Volga,Greeks in southern Ukraine,Jewish and many others.

Well the ones 10 feet under won't be in the way, oh lets see I will take eastern Poles and stuff them in box cars(at gun point)at 3:00am. No, Stalin did not believe any of the Poles going to Siberia would live. His plan was to kill them all but what the heck ,let them work for him till death came. Carol

http://www.kresy-siberia.org/

Please tell me you know of our plight? Carol

Yes that is true, he did resettle many groups.

However in the case of the Poles in the 40’s it was not a case of resettlement. It was a case of arrest and deportation.

Though these Poles were not put into concentration camps they could not move from where they were dumped for five years. They had no civil rights and were virtual prisoners. They were condemned for being bourgeoisie and therefore enemies of “the people” – they received a document on which their sentence was written out.

Some were sent to the salt mines, some to the gold mines, some to do slave labour in the kolkhozes, some were dumped in the middle of the steppe. They were sent all over the place.

In the majority of cases these deportees were just women with children, whose husbands had been arrested and taken separately to the Gulags or to the now famous camps from which they would be taken to Katyn and the other places of mass execution.

When one of these deportees asked her NKVD captor how she and her small children were to survive in the middle of nowhere, she was told that she wasn’t there to survive. She was there to die. So you see, this was no resettlement and it must not be confused with resettlement for the sake of safety or anything else.

There were guards and they had guns, if you tried to brave the cold and escape you were shot. Many have pictures of dead family and our graves are scattered throughout Siberia. Yes, we were prisoners, under false arrest. Russian guards put here to make sure Poles did their jobs were underdogs on Stalins ladder and not much better off.

Carol

You should never forget something.Soviet Union had never signed the treaty of Geneva about the rights of war prisoners.That led to quick elimination of prisoners of war captured in the east front.(both in german and soviet hands).

Germans of Volga,Kosaks of Ukraine,Jews,muslims from Caucasus,Greeks from Ukraine enjoyed the same kind of hospitality in Siberia.