America's Tea Party like Poland's Solidarnosc?

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Nov 6, 10, 16:40 #1

Do you agree with the following interpretation:

Jamie Radtke, chairwoman of the Virginia Tea Party Patriots Federation says that the right wing movement which secured some successes in the midterm elections this week is the US equivalent of Poland’s 1980s Solidarity movement.

“The strength of the Tea Party is in the fact that we are a spontaneous movement, which has many features in common with Poland‘s "Solidarity," Radtke told the Rzeczpospolita daily.

“The Tea Party brings hope today. It shows that the anger of ordinary citizens can make a difference, if only they know how to organize and have determination,” said Radtke, a key personality in the conservative anti-establishment Tea Party movement

MalopolaninThreads: 8 Posts: 198 Joined: Sep 5, 10 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:03 #2
Solidarność was socialistic.

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Nov 6, 10, 17:08 #3

Solidarity wasn't bank rolled by billionaires. They were as mentioned above, socialists. And Solidarity members were beaten up, thrown in jail, and of course, murdered.

The only spontaneous bit of the tea party was when it was Ron Paul supporters getting together and raising money for his campaign. After the election, the "Tea Party" was formed based on the grass roots organization that supported Ron, and injected with cash and steered towards a socially conservative direction.

I don't think you can compare the two.

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:10 #4
Although they are not in the same position on the political spectrum, they are both agents of change. I have a suspicion that the original grass roots Tea-Party movment in the US may have been hijacked by an "Organized" party at some point along the way No proof, just a suspicion.

A JThreads: 19 Posts: 4,639 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:13 #5
I hope Sarah Palin will be president, because I'm convinced this will cure everyone.

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Nov 6, 10, 17:16 #6

Actually, if one does an honest and impassive overview, no human solution to how soceity should work has ever really succeeded. How to reconcile rich and poor, privileged and disadvantaged, sick and healthy, dynamic and lethargic, honest and dishonest...?
Privatise everything (like Thatcher) or retain state control? Create a huge and costly nanny state or leave most decisions to citizens. Print more money like Obama or keep tight monetarist control? Beef up law enforcement or decrminalise...? Every option produces its own set of negative consequences.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:22 #7
convex: They were as mentioned above, socialists. Some were, some weren't. Solidarity was a broad movement. Most of major politicians of both PO and PiS were members of It, also some from PSL and even SLD.

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:22 #8
Polonius3: no human solution to how soceity should work has ever really succeeded Define succeeded. It isn't always black and white / win or lose. Success of a society may best be measured by comparative means, but you need a way to objectively measure your subjective benchmarks.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 6, 10, 17:23 #9
Grzegorz_: Some were, some weren't. Solidarity was a broad movement. Most of major politicians of both PO and PiS were members of It, also some from PSL and even SLD. PiS, PSL and SLD are all socialists. PO have quite a few social democrats too.

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Nov 6, 10, 17:24 #10

It depends on how much you trust and believe in people to be able to take care of themselves. What I do believe works, is local government. Unfortunately, we keep outsourcing decision making further and further away from the people affected by the decisions. People become disillusioned thinking that their vote no longer means anything. That's one of the reasons that we now just support parties instead of individual issues. In the US, it's happening by diluting the citizens vote by not increasing members of the House proportionate to the population. A member of the House today represents well over 10 times as many people as 200 years ago. In Europe, decisions are being made on an EU level, which most of the voters don't know or care about.

Representational Democracy works well when the people are represented....

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: delphiandomine Nov 6, 10, 17:28 #11
convex: What I do believe works, is local government. Well, the best examples are Sweden and Switzerland - both have terribly strong local governments, and both are success stories. Centralisation never seems to work - isn't one of the reasons America is so competitive is due to the way that the individual states have quite a lot of control over taxation?

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Nov 6, 10, 17:30 #12

convex:

It depends on how much you trust and believe in people to be able to take care of themselves.

Therein lies a part of the difficulty in determining the level of a nanny state. Do you make laws under the assumption that all people can take care of them selves, or all people cannot. As I pointed out earlier, it ain't all black and white. There does need to be a safety net to catch those that can't, and weed out those that won't.

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Edited by: A J Nov 6, 10, 17:33 #13

Polonius3:

How to reconcile rich and poor, privileged and disadvantaged, sick and healthy, dynamic and lethargic, honest and dishonest...?

Just make sure everyone is valued and respected, able to participate in society and are allowed to have a sense of a social life. Most workers who have no other options than to work for minimum wage today don't have a social life whatsoever, because they're usually broke after paying their bills. The more qualified workers seem to manage quite alright, but maybe one of them should speak for him or herself?

convex:

Unfortunately, we keep outsourcing decision making further and further away from the people affected by the decisions.

Even worse, we keep outsourcing every possibility someone would like to have in order to get somewhere. And my vote? It doesn't mean jack anymore. I mean, just read this forum and how people respond to a bit of social awareness most of the time. I'd say that's laughable. (I could almost swear it's anti-social and sociopathic behaviour sometimes.)

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 6, 10, 17:34 #14
A J: Most workers today don't have a social life whatsoever, because they're usually broke after paying all their bills. I mean all of those who are on minimum wage, because qualified workers seemed to manage quite alright. But that is at least partially due to their own desire - those on minimum wage often don't want much more than some lager and television.

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:37 #15
delphiandomine: those on minimum wage often don't want much more than some lager and television. Not necessarily. The guy making minimum wage may want a nice cruise around the Mediterranean, but knowing it is beyond his financial means, pares back his expectations.

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Edited by: A J Nov 6, 10, 17:41 #16

delphiandomine:

But that is at least partially due to their own desire - those on minimum wage often don't want much more than some lager and television.

So you're telling me I don't want much more than television and some lager? Why don't you let those people speak for themselves, or ask them for a change? I want to study Psychology to help myself and help others. Right now, there's hardly any job to be found anywhere, because labour migrants get most of the jobs. Because they, more often than not, work for 3,5 € an hour, and sometimes even less. (You just simply can't live on such wages in my country.) In cases where they get paid minimum wage, employers don't have to pay extra costs or double overtime. I think you can imagine what happens when employers have that choice?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 6, 10, 17:41 #17
ShawnH: Not necessarily. The guy making minimum wage may want a nice cruise around the Mediterranean, but knowing it is beyond his financial means, pares back his expectations. Exactly - and that's the way it should be. I'm all for giving people a roof over their heads, health care and food - but not much more. Certainly, nice holidays are not a basic human right.

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Nov 6, 10, 17:42 #18

delphiandomine:

Centralisation never seems to work - isn't one of the reasons America is so competitive is due to the way that the individual states have quite a lot of control over taxation?

It was one of the reasons. Tax burdens for citizens in the US making an average wage are now higher than the majority of EU citizens making the same amount of money, so tax rates are kind of irrelevant now :(

ShawnH:

There does need to be a safety net to catch those that can't, and weed out those that won't.

Of course, but that safety net needs to be local. One size fits all doesn't work. That's why planned economies fail. Too much bureaucratic top down legislation, not enough common sense local approaches. If the crackhead on the corner keeps spending money on crack instead of feeding her family, take away the kids and put the mother in rehab...stop sending the woman a check every month.

Come to think of it, the Tea Party is a lot like Solidarity. They both want their handouts.

A JThreads: 19 Posts: 4,639 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:43 #19
delphiandomine: I'm all for giving people a roof over their heads, health care and food - but not much more. I don't need your money. I need a job. (Again.)

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:45 #20
A J: I don't need your money. I need a job. (Again.) Learn how to install and configure routers and I'll hire you.

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Nov 6, 10, 17:46 #21

convex:

It was one of the reasons. Tax burdens for citizens in the US making an average wage are now higher than the majority of EU citizens making the same amount of money, so tax rates are kind of irrelevant now :(

You're kidding me! I did wonder why you flew off.... :P

Apparently the effective tax rate in Ukraine is 15% and yet hardly anyone actually pays 15% of their income. No wonder they all drive round in blacked-out cars ;)

convex:

Come to think of it, the Tea Party is a lot like Solidarity. They both want their handouts.

But only for them. And no-one else, and certainly not anyone who doesn't agree with them.

A J:

I don't need your money. I need a job. (Again.)

Did you get sacked? :P

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 17:50 #22
A J: I don't need your money. I need a job. (Again.) What is holding you back? Your educational background? Any in demand specialties?

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Nov 6, 10, 17:52 #23

delphiandomine:

You're kidding me! I did wonder why you flew off.... :P

Americans are taxed on world wide income with a fairly low exemption.

Anyway, check for yourself.

http://www.calculateyournetsalary.com

$50k in New York nets you $710 a week

$50k in Paris nets you $822 a week

Poland, $730 a week....

delphiandomine:

But only for them. And no-one else, and certainly not anyone who doesn't agree with them.

And therein lies a difference. Solidarity had a much larger base of people that were being fought for, and that supported them through action or thoughts...

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Nov 6, 10, 17:55 #24

Polonius3:

“The strength of the Tea Party is in the fact that we are a spontaneous movement, which has many features in common with Poland‘s "Solidarity," Radtke told the Rzeczpospolita daily.

The 'Tea Party' has already been co-opted by outside forces including money from corporate contributors, Zionist elements, and the most regressive elements of the Republican Party...'Tea Party' is just a label, means nothing except as a television sound bite...Was 'Solidarity' the same as this?

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Nov 6, 10, 17:57 #25

convex:

$50k in New York nets you $710 a week

Same as in the UK. Is the tax burden really lower in Paris than in New York/London? Something seems amiss there...

convex:

Americans are taxed on world wide income with a fairly low exemption.

This is one of the strangest things for me - I understand them taxing all income in America, but to tax all their citizens worldwide? That - I don't understand in the slightest. Is there any rationale for it?

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Nov 6, 10, 17:58 #26

convex:

Of course, but that safety net needs to be local.

Agreed. But in the Canadian Model, one level of government usually tends to "look out for themselves". ie: the provincial government says "we don't have the budget to fund this / that / the other program, let the municipality fund it" (the local city government for example). Then the local city government has to set up a system to take care of that which was downloaded to them, and local tax rates go up, with no correlating decline in Provincial tax rates. In the end, the taxpayer gets shafted.

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Edited by: convex Nov 6, 10, 17:58 #27

delphiandomine:

Is there any rationale for it?

Citizens responsibility. I don't feel too bad about voting and not living there though...

ShawnH:

But in the Canadian Model, one level of government usually tends to "look out for themselves".

Which is one of the reasons that 95% of tax revenue shouldn't leave the local government. That remaining 5% can be divided up for national defense and treaties.

That's the "original" Tea Party idea. The new one is a much much more diluted selfish version of that.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: delphiandomine Nov 6, 10, 18:03 #28
convex: Citizens responsibility. I don't feel too bad about voting and not living there though... Well, if you have to pay tax there, there's no harm in voting there :) Perhaps if the Polonia paid Polish taxes, then they could have the vote. Seems fair to me.

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Nov 6, 10, 18:04 #29
convex: Which is one of the reasons that 95% of tax revenue shouldn't leave the local government. That remaining 5% can be divided up for national defense and treaties. I like the concept, but I don't know if the formula is right. Also, how many levels of government are really needed?

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Edited by: Grzegorz_ Nov 6, 10, 18:04 #30

delphiandomine:

PiS, PSL and SLD are all socialists.

True, PO also definately is, just ask any liberal economists what they think about this government. In Poland JKM and his people seem to be the only non-socialistic politicians, unfortunatelly they are ridiculed by the media, so have marginal support. However on the other hand all the major political parties in most of EU are socialistic, so then calling somebody a socialist lose its meaning... what I mean is that in a very poor country somebody making 300% of average income shouldn't be called poor, even though that is still not much money, things need to be put in the right context.

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