Is there anything Poland won't do for money? “Wolf’s Lair” - up for rent"

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Jan 20, 12, 01:05 #31

Bzibzioh:

It's quite the opposite. Museum at Auschwitz is financed by the Polish state. And costs a lot to keep it open, so it's additionally sponsored by international foundations (from Germany and Israel mostly).

Europeans are so funny sometimes. They think money coming from the government magically appears out of thin air and tend to forget where half their paycheck goes every month.

Ok, snide remarks aside, I'm just going to say that 1.3 million tourists spend a lot of money and Polish business owners benefit from this and then they pay taxes and that goes to.........TADA!, "The Polish State."

So basically, you pay for Auschwitz. Money well spent, they should keep the place open forever to remind the world what those fukcers did but let's not deny how much money it generates.

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Jan 20, 12, 01:15 #32

Harry:

I've never seen any of the people from there that I have worked with at any of the Jewish events I've been to.

I'm shocked: such an expert on anything Jewish-related in Poland, as you like to present yourself over here, lacking such a key information!!

But then again ... not really.

Harry:

Although I must doubt the accuracy of your statement: a couple of years ago a shopping mall was built on the site of the main sub-camp of Majdanek (by an Israeli company, tastefully enough).

We were talking about Auschwitz. I don't know the status of Majdanek. Trying to change the focus is not helping to move the discussion along.

MEMBER ♀

Jan 20, 12, 01:17 #33

Harry:

To be frank Auschwitz has become more like Disneyworld than a memorial. Just look at those watchtowers. But there are still camps where almost all of the original wire fences are intact....

you got that in one harry. no way would i be interested in going to see the wollfs lair, but it is still is an important part of history and i think it should be preserved. just feel slightly annoyed that other important sites are allowed to go to rack and ruin. i am talking about stalag 8b, lambinowice/lamsdorf. this was the biggest pow camp in poland. have personal reasons for wanting to find out more. there is hardly anything left of it, and am frankly surprised poland didnt try to preserve it. wolfs lair obviously more interesting i suppose...:(

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Jan 20, 12, 01:22 #34

Bzibzioh:

I'm shocked: such an expert on anything Jewish-related in Poland, as you like to present yourself over here, lacking such a key information!!

Or, leaving aside your personal comments, it could be that the people who supervise Auschwitz are not Jews, or at least not all of them.

Bzibzioh:

We were talking about Auschwitz. I don't know the status of Majdanek. Trying to change the focus is not helping to move the discussion along.

Actually, we are talking about "Is there anything Poland won't do for money?", so I'd say that selling ground which was a sub-camp of Majdanek for the development of a shopping mall is pretty much on topic (and a decision which I can see both sides for, although I personally support the building of the mall, but it would have been nice if the memorial plaque had been there when it opened and not a year or so later).

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	Jan 20, 12, 01:24 #35
pam: there is hardly anything left of it, and am frankly surprised poland didnt try to preserve it. It's kinda catch 22; if Poland preserves a former Nazi camp and tourists are coming to see it - bad Poland is profiting from it. If the former camp is let alone - bad Poland didn't try to preserve it. Who said foreigners aren't funny.

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Jan 20, 12, 02:30 #36

BBman:

Actually the germans have turned hitler's former bunker (well, the site) into a tourist attraction

Oh yes, the famous car park for the 1985-era East German flats. A tourist attraction, yes - so much that every time I've taken someone there, no-one else is around. There's a simple information board, and absolutely nothing on the ground to show that there are still the remains of the bunker underneath.

Or are you talking about the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which is nearby, but not on the site?

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,225 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 05:49 #37
When youve done blowing up the wolfs lair complex make sure to blow the beejeesus out of Malbork castle too as for countless decades that blot on the landscape was used as a base to terrorise and murder Poles from........

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Edited by: PlasticPole Jan 20, 12, 06:58 #38
Who would rent the place? I am surprised it is not some kind of museum already. Oh, and Auschwitz like Disney World? Never in your wildest dreams. It's obvious who has never been to Disney World to make such a comparison!

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Edited by: JonnyM Jan 20, 12, 09:57 #39

Bzibzioh:

We were talking about Auschwitz. I don't know the status of Majdanek

Indeed and we both know (unlike some posters from further afield) that those two places are near towns, main roads and (sadly) railway lines. whereas the Wolfschanze is deep in the forest in a deliberately inaccessible place, and doesn't have the poignancy of those other places
and therefore less likely to attract funding. Kętrzyn/Rastenberg is an important military site (from the Napoleonic wars too) but to keep the crumbling bunker complex open needs money that is not being generated from the few visitors who go there now.

PlasticPole:

Who would rent the place? I am surprised it is not some kind of museum already.

It is open to the public already, however the cost of conserving the ruins as any kind of workable (and safe) museum is beyond the resources of the local forestry commission. Hence the search for an organisation to run it.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 20, 12, 10:40 #40
PlasticPole: Oh, and Auschwitz like Disney World? Never in your wildest dreams. It's obvious who has never been to Disney World to make such a comparison! For someone who is as passionate about Polish history as Harry is, it's easy to see why he made the comparison. Perhaps reading his post properly would help?

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Jan 20, 12, 10:57 #41

JonnyM:

money that is not being generated from the few visitors who go there now

Given that 180,000 people currently visit the site and pay an average of 10zl each (assuming that there is an equal split between full and reduced price) and let's say they come four in a car, so 45,000 cars at 8zl each, the site is currently generating about 2,16,000zl income each year, plus whatever they get from the on-site restaurant, hotel, campsite and concession stands.

So why is everybody getting so worked up about a proposal that with increase income by less than 25% (the owners are looking for rent of $130,000? per annum)?

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Jan 20, 12, 11:00 #42

Harry:

180,000 people currently visit the site and pay an average of 10zl each

Bloody Nora. I gathered that the proposal was about paying for maintainance and conservation. Now it looks increasingly like the typical Poland B public sector story. Announce a tender and bidding process because there has to be one, but in fact the person who will win has already been decided and the 'profit share' already agreed.

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Jan 20, 12, 11:15 #43

JonnyM:

I gathered that the proposal was about paying for maintainance and conservation.

Jon: they are bastard huge slabs of concrete (up to 7 metres thick), they don't exactly need much maintainance, or conservation! The work basically consists of keeping the grass cut (in the places where it grows), stopping the ice on the paths from getting too lethal (but the ice inside the bunkers is another matter) and operating the gate.

JonnyM:

Now it looks increasingly like the typical Poland B public sector story. Announce a tender and bidding process because there has to be one, but in fact the person who will win has already been decided and the 'profit share' already agreed.

You cynic!

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Edited by: JonnyM Jan 20, 12, 11:28 #44
Harry: You cynic! I remember dropping off a tender bid to the Polish Army (back in Trgt days) and being surprised to learn that it was a bid for work that had already been done. With the kckbck already having been divvied out among the appropriate 'officers'.

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Jan 20, 12, 12:29 #45

smurf:

I don't get it, I really don't.

Majority does get, so go figure who's the odd one.

FUZZYWICKETS:

1,300,000 visitors a year and you don't see how Poland and its citizens profit from Auschwitz? i don't know what to say.

So what "Poland" should do ? Finance all the trips, inlcuding hotels, food etc. ? Shut down the museum ? How Poland and its citizens should stop profiting from Auschwitz ? I'm waiting for your proposal and If It makes sens I will happily do everything I can to implement it.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 20, 12, 12:34 #46
" So what "Poland" should do ? Finance all the trips, inlcuding hotels, food etc. ? Shut down the museum ? How Poland and its citizens should stop profiting from Auschwitz ? I'm waiting for your proposal and If It makes sens I will happily do everything I can to implement it." They could transfer ownership of the site to the country which owned it during the time that the nazis ran it.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 12:40 #47
Harry: They could transfer ownership of the site to the country which owned it during the time that the nazis ran it That would make a lot of sense. Grzegorz_: I'm waiting for your proposal and If It makes sens I will happily do everything I can to implement it. Stopping pointlessly moaning would be a good place to start.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 12:55 #48
JonnyM: Stopping pointlessly moaning would be a good place to start. Please explain.

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Jan 20, 12, 13:35 #49

JonnyM:

Bloody Nora. I gathered that the proposal was about paying for maintainance and conservation. Now it looks increasingly like the typical Poland B public sector story. Announce a tender and bidding process because there has to be one, but in fact the person who will win has already been decided and the 'profit share' already agreed.

So I wonder where your dislike of Kaczysnski's government come from?

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,999 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 14:02 #50
Grzegorz_: How Poland and its citizens should stop profiting from Auschwitz ? Who said anything about "stop profiting"? see quote #31.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 14:03 #51
Same place as everyone else's really.

smurfThreads: 46 Posts: 660 Joined: Sep 8, 09 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 14:07 #52
Grzegorz_: Majority the majority like Coldplay & U2, doesn't mean they're any right :P

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,432 Joined: May 28, 09 ♀	Jan 20, 12, 17:52 #53
Since it is in Poland the Polish state should make money off of any museums. Why should Germany be allowed to make a dime off it? Besides, there's a camp in Germany open to visitors, KZ Dachau. Would anyone suggest someone besides the Germans run it?

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 17:54 #54
smurf: the majority like Coldplay & U2, doesn't mean they're any right :P Ugh. PlasticPole: Polish state should make money off of any museums. If anything money goes into rather than comes out of museums.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 18:21 #55
FUZZYWICKETS: Who said anything about "stop profiting"? Hmm... So why did you mention the whole "profiting from Auschwitz visitors" thing ? I got the impression that you are very critical about it. Please make yourself clear then.

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,999 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Jan 20, 12, 19:22 #56
Grzegorz_: Hmm... So why did you mention the whole "profiting from Auschwitz visitors" thing ? I've explained myself thoroughly in this thread. Go back and read it and let me know if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: delphiandomine Jan 20, 12, 19:30 #57
Ironside: So I wonder where your dislike of Kaczysnski's government come from? The fact that many PiS-supporting people are behind such things should tell you the story. Also ask yourself who the State Forestry Service supports politically. It ain't PO.

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Jan 21, 12, 14:40 #58

FUZZYWICKETS:

Go back and read it and let me know if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

Dear Sir, please explain...

1. Why did you mention "Poland profiting from Auschwitz visitors" in this thread ?
2. What's your opinion on "Poland profiting from Auschwitz visitors" ? Is it something wrong ? Y/N ?
3. If you think it's wrong, then please tell me how It should be stopped.

I hope to hear soon from you !

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,999 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 12, 15:32 #59
Grzegorz_: 1. Why did you mention "Poland profiting from Auschwitz visitors" in this thread ? quote #16. Grzegorz_: 2. What's your opinion on "Poland profiting from Auschwitz visitors" ? Is it something wrong ? Y/N ? Quote #31 but for emphasis, no.

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