AWESOME action of private detective K.Rutkowski in Norway!

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 5, 12, 17:28 #421
Ant63: Will have a look again tonight if I have a moment I'd be grateful if you could.

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Jan 5, 12, 20:42 #422

Harry:

I'd be grateful if you could.

http://fokusert.com/?p=9959 This the link with the divorce information. Norweigan of course. Google translate works.

Are they being presented as a happy ccouple now?

Heres a few links to Rambo's adventures in Norway.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10090202

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10090107

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10088186

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Rambo-hjalp-ung-gutt--flykte-f ra-norsk-fosterhjem-6690772.html --Russian Case

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10096507

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Jan 5, 12, 21:08 #423
Harry: Which magazine? Got any links to online stuff? What sources was the article based on? http://www.polityka.pl/spoleczenstwo/reportaze/1522617,1,porwanie-w-ma jestacie-prawa.read here is the link. I don't know what sources the author used, but is seems to be well researched.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 5, 12, 21:18 #424
aphrodisiac: http://www.polityka.pl/spoleczenstwo/reportaze/1522617,1,porwani e-w-ma jestacie-prawa.read here is the link. I don't know what sources the author used, but is seems to be well researched. So much for the 'they stole my baby because she looked sad at school' lies!

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jan 5, 12, 22:14 #425
Harry: So much for the 'they stole my baby because she looked sad at school' lies! yep, there parents were def not fit, which is well described in the article. However, there are thousands of families like that all over the world, including Poland. Neglecting a child is a sort of abuse in my humble opinion.

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Jan 5, 12, 22:53 #426

I like this comment from http://www.se.pl/multimedia/galeria/64323/brawurowa-ucieczka-9-letniej -nikoli-z-norweskiej-niewoli-wstrzasajaca-relacja-reportera-super-expr es/

Dajcie wy ludzie sobie spokuj... znam sprawe bardzo dobrze i nie jest tak jak wam sie wydaje!!! Dobry koniec to moze nigdy nie nastapic... teraz to dziecko nie bedzie mialo szansy poznac zycia w prawdziwie kochajacej sie rodzinie. A nie wiecznych zdradach, klotniach i innych problemach przy czym bijatykach! Nie wiecie o co chodzi wiec nie robcie sensacji i reklamy dla wielce mi Rambo. Rodzice tej dziewczynki zrepsuli opinie 175tys Polakom, ktorzy uczciwie tu pracuja, sa doceniani i ciesza sie ze maja taka mozliwosc mieszkania w takim kraju gdzie dla dzieci kraj ten robi wszystko i NIE POZWOLI NA JAKAKOLWIEK KRZYWDE DLA NICH. A w Polsce jak jest, ile dzieci jest zakatowanych bitych i zestresowanych, bo sasiedzi tego nie widza i zatykaja uszy, bo wszystko dla nich wyglada na szczesliwie kochajaca sie rodzinie. A takie sa tylko pozory. Wiec nie piszcie glupot.

Give yourself spokuj you people ... I know the affair very well and is not as it sounds like you! A good end of it may never come ... Now this child would have no chance to know life in a truly loving family. And do not eternal betrayals, quarrels and other problems with the brawls! You do not know what's going on so I do not do advertising for sensationalism and Rambo me greatly. The parents of this girl zrepsuli opinions 175tys Poles, who are working honestly here, are valued and enjoy from May this opportunity to live in a country where children, this country is doing everything and will not allow any damages TO THEM. And in Poland as it is, how many children are beaten and tortured stressed, because the neighbors do not obstruct the viewer's ears, because everything looks like for them to happily loving family. And these are only appearances. So do not write crap.

Now where is Patrycja19 now?

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Jan 6, 12, 06:17 #427

None of this surprises me. They took the money from the government, which was for the child's welfare. Had money for alcohol, but not child's lunch. They refused the offers of a psychiartist, or a place where the child could do her homework in peace. When finally taken by the system to the foster home, the child is relieved that she can get some sleep, but worries who will take care of her mother. Let's look at the loving mother again:

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Jan 6, 12, 06:25 #428

Ant63:

Now where is Patrycja19 now?

Right here!

I dont read polish so the first link does me no good.

Ant63:

And in Poland as it is, how many children are beaten and tortured stressed, because the neighbors do not obstruct the viewer's ears, because everything looks like for them to happily loving family. And these are only appearances. So do not write crap.

this lady wrote this, I dont disagree with her, I never said anything about other children, we are talking about
this case. no other news was presented in here on this situation.

if someone is guilty of hurting a child.. let them get what they deserve, if they are found guilty.. I think this
should apply to anyone, including foster parents. THATS MY POSITION.

so if they are guilty, I said it before.. then so be it, they should be facing consequences. but I was under
the strong impression that this was more of a issue with the social workers taking immigrant children away
from their parents unjustly. There are other articles supporting this. That is why I was firm on my thoughts
of their innocence.

if they were not keeping food in the home, then thats a huge reason to take the child away, no child
should be left to go hungry, arguing happens among all families, thats not something that I agree with that
is neglect.. because people fight,, everyone, every country, every nationality, its over stupid things most of the
time.. if there is abuse involved with parents allowing siblings to fight or the children getting hit over and over
then thats different as I have stated before.

* PATRYCJA SAYIN OH DEAR> No thats not what I will say, nor did I ever say it, so you can scratch
that!

Now can someone find a site besides google that translates that into english for me because it was all jumbled
and hard to understand or see who wrote the article or who was who.

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Jan 6, 12, 06:49 #429

http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/polish-consul-knew-about-childs-kidn apping/

Twelve days before her disappearance from Norway, courtesy of Mr Rutkowski, Adrianna Warchol, a worker at the Polish embassy, disagreed with Nikola (NN) being taken into custody by the authorities.

Ms Warchol wrote, “All members of this family are Polish citizens, not Norwegian. NN should have been in a Polish environment, together with Polish-speaking people. She has a big family in Poland who can take care of her in a good way. I personally know her mother is very loving and caring,” VG reports, Thursday.

The picture became much less clear after the detective helped Nikola make her dramatic escape from Norway, however. VG alleges that Adrianna Warchol said, “Officers from the child welfare [services] act like Hitler Youth.”

Further official denials followed from the Polish Ambassador, Wojciech Kolanczyk, who alleges he has “written evidence. All my officers have signed that they have not had anything to do with this campaign, and I believe them.”

The accusations and rebuttals have been flying between Polish diplomats and Norwegian authorities ever since.

Meanwhile, Norwegian police have decided to press charges against the girl’s biological parents

Well I guess its up to the individual which story you want to believe, if someone who is in direct contact
with these so called officers from child welfare are saying they act like hitler, if they were doing such good
I dont think people would be accusing them.

These are all grown adults fighting back and forth.. maybe someone should put all of them in jail for
neglecting each other and the lady did say that nikola should have been placed with polish family, she has a big
family , why not send her to her family while they figure out whats going on instead of taking money from the
parents for her child care when she has family to do this??

again, it doesnt make any sense.. and if someone is doing something wrong here, in the states we do place
the children with family unless no one is able to care for them then they go into foster care but parents never
pay for it, its all part of the state so it comes out of everyones pocket.. including the ones who run the system here

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Jan 6, 12, 09:28 #430

Patrycja19:

Adrianna Warchol, a worker at the Polish embassy, disagreed with Nikola (NN) being taken into custody by the authorities.

Ms Warchol wrote, “All members of this family are Polish citizens, not Norwegian. NN should have been in a Polish environment, together with Polish-speaking people. She has a big family in Poland who can take care of her in a good way. I personally know her mother is very loving and caring,” VG reports, Thursday.

Patrycja19:

“Officers from the child welfare [services] act like Hitler Youth.”

I wonder where this person from the embassy got her professional expertise in Child Welfare from. Or why she was involved at all.

Patrycja19:

Polish Ambassador, Wojciech Kolanczyk, who alleges he has “written evidence. All my officers have signed that they have not had anything to do with this campaign, and I believe them.”

The accusations and rebuttals have been flying between Polish diplomats and Norwegian authorities ever since.

Meanwhile, Norwegian police have decided to press charges against the girl’s biological parents

Lie number one, given the quote from this Warchol creature.

Patrycja19:

Meanwhile, Norwegian police have decided to press charges against the girl’s biological parents

At least there is some common sense here.

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Jan 6, 12, 09:42 #431
What I take away from the polityka article. 1. The family dysfunction is moderately severe. 2. In most countries the degree of dysfunction described would not warrant forced separation (from parents, extended family and birth culture).

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Jan 6, 12, 12:12 #432

mafketis:

2. In most countries the degree of dysfunction described would not warrant forced separation (from parents, extended family and birth culture).

I am in agreement with this statement based on the facts we have. There is no official information available, only the words of the family which ultimately appear to have been lies. Possibly there was more to it factually. The other side of the coin is that they were in Norway which means they obey Norweigen Law. They were warned repeatedley that this would happen. They were offered assistance and refused. Somebody that cared about their child would have done something about their behaviour.

The most concerning thing from the article linked by aphrodisiac was the families solicitor describing them as a role model for other families. If my translation is correct. This sets the barr extremely low for Poland and I'm sure Polish people would not want to be linked to that statement at all. He also described Norway as a nazi state that steals blond blue eyed children as it has a low birth rate in a round about way. I'm sure Norway is very happy about that. Not. If you were able to get full access to Polands Hague rulings you would see the cap fits. It's nonesense. Most of Polands decisions are actually made by people who don't have a clue about the Hague, so at least they have an excuse.

I saw an interview with the Mother last night and she stated she was very concerned Norway would appeal the Hague decision. They actually don't need to appeal in reality because in actual fact, the court was wrong to not return the child, therefore juristiction is Norways. The only benefit to Norway in appealing would be that the case would move to a higher court where perhaps a decision in law would be made. Under Polish Law the decision of the court will not be final for 6 weeks, I believe, so we will see some movement at the end of this month. Perhaps a new court case which will not take place for a further 3 months. Most likely some EAW will be coming Polands way.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Jan 6, 12, 12:16 #433
mafketis: In most countries the degree of dysfunction described Note the word described. It is dangerous to rely on media reports. Ant63: There is no official information available, only the words of the family which ultimately appear to have been lies Exactly. Ant63: Possibly there was more to it factually. Without a shadow of doubt.

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Jan 6, 12, 13:41 #434

Patrycja19:

Well I guess its up to the individual which story you want to believe, if someone who is in direct contact with these so called officers from child welfare are saying they act like hitler, if they were doing such good I dont think people would be accusing them.

This would be the same Adrianna Warchol who was later fired, right? (Longer Polish article, shorter article in English.)

Patrycja19:

arguing happens among all families, thats not something that I agree with that is neglect.. because people fight,, everyone, every country, every nationality, its over stupid things most of the time.

There is a big difference between arguing and physical violence (which is what Nikola was being exposed to).

Patrycja19:

she has a big family , why not send her to her family while they figure out whats going on instead of taking money from the parents for her child care when she has family to do this??

Largely because she had no family in Norway and even if she did have, they wouldn't have been vetted by social workers to make sure that they were fit to be foster parents. Perhaps the relatives also like to get drunk and beat seven bells of shiit out of each other before sending the kid to bed with no food because they spent all their money on booze.

JonnyM:

Lie number one, given the quote from this Warchol creature.

It is very possible that he was speaking having, in good faith, relied on what his staff told him. That's entirely plausible, given how Warchol was soon fired.
On a similar topic:

Bizarrely, the Polish consul in Oslo has confessed that the notorious private investigator Krzysztof Rutkowski told him personally that he was planning to snatch the girl – yet he did not believe him.
“He told me that he represented the girl’s parents and would make a TV programme about the case. I informed him about Norwegian laws and regulations and child welfare in this country,” said Marek Pedzich, according to VG.
He also claimed that the detective brought a TV camera crew to the embassy when he revealed his plans to kidnap the girl. The Polish consul admitted that he thought making a TV programme about the girl’s plight was “a good idea.”

http://www.norvegia.com.ro/2011/07/09/polish-consul-knew-about-childs- kidnapping/

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Jan 6, 12, 15:59 #435

Harry:

Largely because she had no family in Norway and even if she did have, they wouldn't have been vetted by social workers to make sure that they were fit to be foster parents. Perhaps the relatives also like to get drunk and beat seven bells of shiit out of each other before sending the kid to bed with no food because they spent all their money on booze.

Is there any precedent in the world for children to actually be returned to their country of origin to be looked after, rather than in the State that took them into custody to begin with?

(I think we all know that the Poles would probably order the immediate return of the child to the parents anyway)

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Jan 6, 12, 16:05 #436

Harry:

The Polish consul admitted that he thought making a TV programme about the girl’s plight was “a good idea.”

It's just a shame that the Consul had got hold of the wrong end of the stick. A program about the childs real plight may have openned a few eyes and ears in Poland.

On a seperate note

Over the last year, my partner and I have suffered the worst of the Polish justice system regarding children. We were lucky, we won because we were right and we did everything right. It could easily have gone the other way. My eyes were openned to the fact that most people, rely, only on their interpretaion of law, and not what actually is law. Mostly hearsay. I would like to write about our experience and more from my partners past. It is a torrid tale. Its not for my furtherment or financial gain but to portray a true and grim reality and maybe inspire some change. So my question is, do you people think it would be something that could be published and read in Poland? And is it worth our while?

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Edited by: Harry Jan 6, 12, 16:06 #437

delphiandomine:

Is there any precedent in the world for children to actually be returned to their country of origin to be looked after, rather than in the State that took them into custody to begin with?

Not that I know of. And I would be very very surprised if there were to be, that might be a step too far even for the biggest of Europhiles.

delphiandomine:

I think we all know that the Poles would probably order the immediate return of the child to the parents anyway

As was showed by the Polish court deciding that the kid should stay with the parents who risked her life while having her kidnapped by a convicted criminal.

I'd love to know whether the Norwegian court actually presented their files to the Polish court or whether they thought that the court would simply apply the relevant international agreement and so there would be no need to present any files at all.

Ant63:

do you people think it would be something that could be published and read in Poland? And is it worth our while?

I'd suggest that you do not: you are a foreigner and thus a lot of Poles will automatically side against you.
As for whether your wife should write it, probably not: nobody seems to care about family court issues, not the public, not the police and not even the family courts.

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Jan 6, 12, 16:16 #438

Ant63:

It's just a shame that the Consul had got hold of the wrong end of the stick. A program about the childs real plight may have openned a few eyes and ears in Poland.

Indeed - a programme about children suffering abroad in a foreign country where they don't speak the language well and are somewhat isolated from other children would be interesting. The way that many Polish children were treated by their parents after Polish accession to the EU is an untold story - I've read quite a few accounts online of children being dumped with relatives in a different place away from friends, parents abroad for months on end - the list is endless.

(interestingly, there's quite a few accounts online of British children going to French/Spanish schools and failing everything because they don't give support to foreign children).

Harry:

Not that I know of. And I would be very very surprised if there were to be, that might be a step too far even for the biggest of Europhiles.

I'd have my doubts, that much is sure. The relevant authorities would have no jurisdiction, so I can't see how it would be possible for the child to be placed in Poland. As for the child being part of its "birth culture" - how many Poles in Norway want to foster children and have a suitable environment for them?

Harry:

I'd love to know whether the Norwegian court actually presented their files to the Polish court or whether they thought that the court would simply apply the relevant international agreement and so there would be no need to present any files at all.

You and I both know that it wouldn't make a difference anyway ;)

Seems to me that this case has done one thing - Polish children taken into care anywhere in Europe will be guarded far more in the future, and access will certainly be far more limited than it was before. Who is going to risk it now?

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Jan 6, 12, 17:13 #439

delphiandomine:

Is there any precedent in the world for children to actually be returned to their country of origin to be looked after, rather than in the State that took them into custody to begin with?

It would be difficult to find anything close to this as unfotunately these parents took the law into their own hands. There by criminiling themselves. If they had done things differently, then the situation may have been different. It appears the Norweigans tried to help this family as much as possible over a long period of time, and I would think that if the family had been willing to discuss and do something about these issues they could have walked away from Norway without a problem. Instead it appears they continued to be selfish and sealed their own fate.

The law is based on habitual residence. To establish habitual residence you must meet certain requirements. For example if you were just passing through a country for 3 months you cannot establish habitual residence. You could establish habitual residence within a few days by registering with a doctor and a school where a child is concerned. This would most likely be hotly contested in court though. It has passed scrutiny in the past though. Normally you must prove you have an intention by your actions that you intend to stay or have actually stayed in that country for a substantial amount of time.

Once habitual residence is established in a country, you cannot undo this by taking the child to another country against the wishes of a parent/guardian. This can only be done with the agreement of both parents or the guardian. The state being the guardian in the case of Nikola. By removing a child from its habitual residence you would be guilty of abduction not kidnapping. Kidnapping is the abduction of a child in an attempt to extort money. Its a bit like the word hoover.

Article 13B of the Hague says you cannot return a child to a place where it at risk. This can be of physical or psycholgical harm. This is non applicable in most cases as it also alludes to the fact that if the country to which the child is being returned has in place measures to protect the child so it cannot be used as reason for non return. This is to prevent the usual "My partners an alcholoic" crap that you get being used in a spurious manner. It seems Poland is unable to understand this article though.

So for Norway to return this child to Poland I see a few issues. Primarily Norway must protect this child in law. It is Norways duty under the "Rights of a Child" legislation as this child is a habitual resident of Norway, and Norway is also the legal guardian of the child. Secondly it must be confident enough that provisions have been made to provide legal protection for this child in Poland. This would mean the Polish state must be closely involved with the child. As Poland has consistently violated the Hague agreement and from what I can see can offer little if any provision to protect the welfare of this child, I cannot see a viable method to return the child to Poland.

In my opinion it would be preferable to return the child to the extended family, subject to them meeting the requirements of Norweigen Child Services with garauntees from the Polish authorities that the childs welfare be properly protected.

I cannot see the Norweigans, not prosecuting these parents for their crime. It would not be in the interest of children in similar situations that have been abducted by malicious partners around the world. It is a crime against a state and breach of international law. Not only that, it is a serious crime in Polish law punishable with 7 years in prison. If there is no prosecution it could be a massive set back for child protection accross borders in the future. Even Polish goverment officials have made it difficult for Norway to do nothing by describing them as the Hitler Youth.

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Jan 6, 12, 17:33 #440

Ant63:

If there is no prosecution it could be a massive set back for child protection accross borders in the future.

Very much the point: Norway would basically be declaring open season on all children if it did not prosecute.

Ant63:

Even Polish goverment officials have made it difficult for Norway to do nothing by describing them as the Hitler Youth.

Something which the Norwegians took remarkably well.

The Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) has also released an official statement.
“Although an employee at the embassy wrote a letter using wording we would not have chosen in a similar situation, this does not change the fact that the embassy has the right to intervene in matters relating to their citizens.”

http://www.norvegia.com.ro/2011/07/09/polish-consul-knew-about-childs- kidnapping/

Just imagine Polish reactions if they had been compared to the Hitler Youth!

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Jan 6, 12, 18:06 #441

Harry:

I'd love to know whether the Norwegian court actually presented their files to the Polish court or whether they thought that the court would simply apply the relevant international agreement and so there would be no need to present any files at all.

Its far more complicated than you imagine Harry. First the guardian has to apply to the Norweigan Central Authority. The NCA then determines if there has been an abduction as specified by the Hague convention for Abducted children and then applies to the Polish Central Authority with all documents translated into Polish. This is to prevent spurious Hague claims which Poland is very fond of. No country wants to waste money for nothing. The Polish CA should reply immediately but it doesn't. The translated documents will automatically be returned by the PCA to be signed even though the PCA have been instructed not to do this by the Hague commission. A stalling tactic. The PCA must then arrange a hearing in the town/city in which the child now resides. The PCA is obligated by law to complete the full hearing within 6 weeks. It does not do this. It is unlikely the first hearing will happen for 3 months. 3 months seems to be the minimum time before you can get anything serious before a court. This appears to be a stalling tactic to make it more difficult to secure a return. The Norweigens, without doubt, would have provided comphrehensive documentaion translated into Polish before the hearing. How much will have actually been used during the hearing, nobody will know unless this case is published. I doubt that it was considerd at any length. From my experience and the experience of others, this hearing will have been a debate on whether Polish law applies or International Law. Of course everyone in the room will want Polish Law except the Norweigan who will feel very uncomfortable. The next session will involve the parents expressing what wonderful parents they are. From my experience it's a bit like "Noddy went to Toy Town" in court. The Mr/Mrs Nasty Prosecutor is the funniest of all. They really have to show at all cost what militant nasty arsh*les they are. I used to provoke ours with "Good Morning How are you toay" and "I think that went well for us and "see you next time" It really was funny watching his facial expressions. He never spoke a word unless it was to be rude.

I can't give anymore info than that I'm afraid but thats pretty much how the process goes.

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