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Becoming non-EUnuch -> giving up your share of handouts.


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Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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Edited by: Moderator  Feb 19, 12, 19:33    #1
Hello.

I've been having this idea for quite a long time but unfortunately I don't have enough time to implement it on my own... It's not as easy as some here seem to think... First there would be needed fair evaluation of how much money average Polish person is getting from this shi*ty institution and to make it serious, several high-profile NGO's from neutral countries would have to be involved... then the government would have to be pressured to create some simple procedure of giving it back (so millions can be involved) and finally some pan-European action to show clowns in Belgium where they should stick it all.

Do you know any organization, which potentially could take over this idea ? I don't want it to be some childish one man protest but massive action.

Please comment.

edited post

HarryThreads: 62
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 Feb 19, 12, 20:01    #2
All the data you need is public domain info. Just divide Poland's net receipts by the number of Poles and then send the cash to the EU. Easy enough.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 19, 12, 20:18    #3
Simple as. Or just send it to a suitable charity; perhaps the Wielka Orkiestra.
MeatheadThreads: 3
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 Feb 20, 12, 04:28    #4
Yes Poland, give it back. Iceland was in the same situation as Greece but had the currency to tell the bankers to go squat, last week they were rated investment grade. Don't give up the zloty, or Germany will make you into another Greece.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Feb 20, 12, 07:26    #5
Meathead:
Yes Poland, give it back.


You do realise that countless people in Poland are dependent upon EU cash for their livelihoods? The EU has allowed the insane small peasant farmholdings to be viable, for a start.

Meathead:
Iceland was in the same situation as Greece but had the currency to tell the bankers to go squat, last week they were rated investment grade.


Currency is meaningless, the painful measures (and the point blank refusal to pay for some of what they did) is what helped them. Greece could have perfectly well told the banks to get lost too, but there's a world of difference between owning a few billion and the massive amount that the Greeks owe.

Meathead:
Don't give up the zloty, or Germany will make you into another Greece.


Hardly. Greece is in that situation because they've cheated themselves for years, not because of Germany or anyone else. The Netherlands are a comparable size - are they in trouble? No.
modafinilThreads: -
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 Feb 20, 12, 23:10    #6
I read in the WBJ today that Poland are chipping in 6 billion euros to the IMF.

EU money isn't about handouts/charity: it's strictly business. The monies moved by governments is for infrastructure dependent on private business, corporations and individuals investing in Poland or expected to be invested.
MeatheadThreads: 3
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Edited by: Meathead  Feb 21, 12, 05:31    #7
delphiandomine:

You do realise that countless people in Poland are dependent upon EU cash for their livelihoods? The EU has allowed the insane small peasant farmholdings to be viable, for a start.


Poland should break out the checkbook. Polish welfare is the responsibility of the Polish Government (actually the Polish people). This is bad precedent for Poland as they think they're not responsible for the social conditions in Poland. You can't solve social problems in Poland or Greece from Belgium.

delphiandomine:

Currency is meaningless, the painful measures (and the point blank refusal to pay for some of what they did) is what helped them. Greece could have perfectly well told the banks to get lost too, but there's a world of difference between owning a few billion and the massive amount that the Greeks owe.


Currency isn't meaningless, it should reflect the goods and services of your country. Iceland was able to devalue the currency. I traveled to Greece within the past year, it was just as expensive as Germany. Ridiculous, it should have been a lot cheaper but the Euro keeps prices artificially high thus the Greeks can't get out of their financial predicament and Germany continues to export to Greece and the rest of the peripherally. The Euro's been a boom for the Germans.

delphiandomine:
Hardly. Greece is in that situation because they've cheated themselves for years, not because of Germany or anyone else. The Netherlands are a comparable size - are they in trouble? No.


It's not about morals it's all about money.

EU money isn't about handouts/charity: it's strictly business. The monies moved by governments is for infrastructure dependent on private business, corporations and individuals investing in Poland or expected to be invested.

Poland needs to invest in Poland
modafinilThreads: -
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 Feb 21, 12, 05:58    #8
Meathead:
Poland needs to invest in Poland


I'm not sure what that soundbite means.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 21, 12, 12:16    #9
modafinil:
I'm not sure what that soundbite means.

Me neither, but the healthy state of the stock exchange and bond market here suggest that there's no shortage of investment.
Meathead:
Iceland was able to devalue the currency.

Poland has a population 50 times that of Iceland and an economy as different as it can be.
peterwegThreads: 35
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Edited by: peterweg  Feb 21, 12, 12:17    #10
delphiandomine:
Currency is meaningless, the painful measures (and the point blank refusal to pay for some of what they did) i


Thats a fallacy. Iceland did not refuse to pay the bankers money bank. All this debt is stilled owed and hanging over the Icelandic economy as they cannot use their own currency tor repay it. The government is taxing all icelandic exporters so that foreign currency can be raised to repay the bankers.

They refused to pay the depositors guarantee , to savers whom were non-Icelandic on the terms offered. The EFTA Surveillance Authority is taking Iceland to court to make them repay the money they stole from individual savers who were discriminated on by nationality.

The ridiculous narrative you hear in non-Icelandic media about what Iceland did has nothing to do with fact. Iceland is repaying its debts and its economy is still ******.


Iceland was able to devalue the currency.

Not so. Iceland has fixed the exchange rate and consequently Iceland is still a very expensive place. Thats if you use the local paper Krona described as 'money', in fact Iceland currency is not exchangeable for real money, its real exchange rate 'off-shore' is 50% less. So they haven't devalued, just forced exporters to hand over foreign currency in exchange for Icelandic krona at half the real value, on pain of jailtime. This is illegal under EEA law, BTW.

Iceland is a fantasy economy with fantasy money. Just like Disney Dollars, but with less intrinsic value. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_dollar
AvalonThreads: 3
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 Feb 21, 12, 13:43    #11
peterweg:

Iceland is repaying its debts and its economy is still ******.


That must be the reason the ratings agencies have just upgraded Iceland to investment status.

www.newsnetscotland.com/.../4368-iceland-now-...

Seems like your wrong again.
peterwegThreads: 35
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Edited by: peterweg  Feb 21, 12, 14:06    #12
Avalon:
That must be the reason the ratings agencies have just upgraded Iceland to investment status.



WTF has that got with anything? has Iceland removed capital controls? has the 4billion Euro bonds been repaid? has the EFTA SA stopped the legal case against Iceland? has it made any less likely they will lose the case? have the banks stopped index lining loans against inflation?

A typical response from our resident bricky.

Iceland did what it did becuase it had no choice. Whether that is better is still open to question.

Sigrún Davíðsdóttir's Icelog

Iceland pre-and post-collapse. A tale of two countries



Tonight, the main news on the Bloomberg‘s webpage is on the new Greek deal. Beneath it there is a Bloomsberg article from earlier today that has shot to the top in the course of the day. If the Greeks read the article on Iceland there would be a massive uprising in Greece because of the new deal: the Icelandic lesson, according to Bloomberg, is that public anger does pay.

Given the circumstances, it’s difficult to imagine what could possibly improve the life of the Greeks – their situation differs from Iceland. But the new EU deal on Greek won’t do wonders for Greece. It will help private sector creditors of Greece, though there is an attempt to force them to write down their debt. Ordinary Greeks will all the same be paying with blood, sweat and tears for years to come in a country where harsh economic measures stifle growth, leaving the Greeks with absolutely no means to grow out of this misery. It remains to be seen how history will judge those Greek politicians who are signing the deal tonight.

The Bloomberg headline on Iceland is “Icelandic Anger Brings Record Debt Relief in Best Crisis Recovery Story.” There are two things of interest here – debt relief and crisis recovery.

As professor Thorolfur Matthiasson explains to Bloomberg, the measures the Icelandic Government has used to help indebted households have worked. “Without the relief, homeowners would have buckled under the weight of their loans after the ratio of debt to incomes surged to 240 percent in 2008, Matthiasson said.” The Government and the banks agreed to forgive debt exceeding 110% of home values. A recent ruling regarding a forex loan indicates a further bonus to those who took out forex loans but the end of that saga, and if it will lead to further debt relief for those who took out indexed loans, is still unclear. The 110% way is, according to professor Matthiasson, “the broadest agreement that’s been undertaken.”

Greeks aren’t fighting forex loans and high private debt but horrific public debt and consequent cuts to the bone. The Icelandic Government did have to make deep cuts but nothing compared to what Greece is facing. Those who want to study the Icelandic recovery find a wealth of information on the IMF website, from a conference held in Iceland last October, as reported earlier on Icelog.

Bloomberg points out that Iceland’s $13 billion economy shrank 6.7% in 2009, but grew 2.9% last year. According to an OECD forecast it will expand 2.4 percent this year and next. In comparison the euro area will grow 0.2% this year. In contrast, Greek GDP has been decreasing for 6-7% a year for the last two years. The forecast for this year, according to the statistics in the new deal, is a decrease of 4.3% – most likely too optimistic – followed by a 0% growth in 2013 and – probably overly optimistic – a growth of 2.3% in 2014.

A significant difference between Icelandic and Greek fortune is that Greece is being forced to fork out money it doesn’t have – but has to borrow – to pay its creditors. Banks with cheap money that didn’t bother to do the math and figure out that Greece should never have been lent all the money it got. For every unwise borrower there is a really dumb lender.

During 2008 the Icelandic Government tried to borrow money abroad to bail out its banks but couldn’t secure the necessary loans. Luckily for Iceland, events in early October 2008 overwhelmed the Government and the IMF – no one could figure out a way to bail out the banks (one Icelog source pointed out that a ECB repo could have been set up but there wasn’t the time). According to my sources, IMF employees present in Iceland as it all happened were furious that the Icelandic Government let the bank collapse but it was all too late and no way to figure out a way when it was all happening.

Instead of the immediate impossibility of saving the banks they were split up: domestic accounts were put into operating domestic banks – and further secured by making domestic deposits a priority claim – whereas the foreign operations were left to go bankrupt, leaving international creditors with whatever can be sold and turned into cash. In addition, the Icelandic Central Banks imposed capital controls to stop a capital flight from the country. This is, in short, the Icelandic way to prevent a banking disaster from turning into a national catastrophe.

This isn’t necessarily a panacea for all sovereigns who hit the rocks – but it’s well worth considering whether saving all banks and let private debt migrate to the public sector, as if it were a natural law to privatise gains and nationalise losses, really is the only way. Iceland couldn’t find any other way at the time (but did indeed later throw good public money at bad private banks; another story mentioned here).

Sadly for the Greeks, it doesn’t seem that any amount of public anger of the Greek demos can diminish this dreadful pain and sad future. Iceland got a quick stab. Today, Greece has been condemned to a lingering pain.


HarryThreads: 62
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 Feb 21, 12, 14:13    #13
peterweg:
WTF has that got with anything? has Iceland removed capital controls? has the 4billion Euro bonds been repaid? has the EFTA SA stopped the legal case against Iceland? has it made any less likely they will lose the case? have the banks stopped index lining loans against inflation?

Thanks for that info. Would you, by any chance, have had time recently to address the question which I asked you about how how an interest rate of 4% causes a fall of 11.5% to become a fall of 24.7% in just three years?
peterwegThreads: 35
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 Feb 21, 12, 14:29    #14
Harry you really are a pea brained f***wit aren't you? Can't you calculate compound interest yourself? More to the point, wtf has that got to do with this topic?
HarryThreads: 62
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 Feb 21, 12, 14:54    #15
peterweg:
Harry you really are a pea brained f***wit aren't you?

Thank you for that comment.

peterweg:
Can't you calculate compound interest yourself?

You said here that you have already calculated the figures. Could you post them in that thread? Thanks.

peterweg:
More to the point, wtf has that got to do with this topic?

One could say very much the same about discussions about Iceland in a thread about Polish people giving back handouts from the EU.

Grzegorz_:
First there would be needed fair evaluation of how much money average Polish person is getting from this shi*ty institution

Poland in 2009 got a net payout of EUR 6,119,000,000 (source). At today's exchange rate that is PLN 25,579,590,000, The 2010 Polish census shows a population of 38,186,860. So that is PLN 669.85 per person. Would you like the EU's bank details?
peterwegThreads: 35
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 Feb 21, 12, 15:21    #16
Harry:
You said here that you have already calculated the figures. Could you post them in that thread? Thanks.


See here

Polish apartment prices continue to fall

I even added more accurate inflation figures and fixed a mistake, its 11.5% to 17.1%n (not 17.5% as i originally said)
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
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 Feb 21, 12, 20:18    #17
Pfft. Iceland was in that situation ONLY because it deregulated its financial institutions. One man made a lot of money off bad investments while the rest of Iceland suffered. Let's not confuse things.
MeatheadThreads: 3
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 Feb 22, 12, 05:14    #18
peterweg:
In contrast, Greek GDP has been decreasing for 6-7% a year for the last two years. The forecast for this year, according to the statistics in the new deal, is a decrease of 4.3% – most likely too optimistic – followed by a 0% growth in 2013 and – probably overly optimistic – a growth of 2.3% in 2014.


The point being Greece's GDP has been decreasing due to the fact they have no control over their currency. It's ridiculous that it is as expensive for me to travel to Greece as it was for me to take a couple of days in Frankfurt between connecting flights. Greece should be a lot cheaper and if it was they would be able to grow their economy. The Euro is a cheap Mark and an expensive Drachma.
southernThreads: 116
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Edited by: southern  Feb 22, 12, 11:55    #19
The problem of Greece is structural.Euro is like golden sand covering the rotten interior.Ruling class have connected their dominance and survival on euro.There is no way out.They have no solutions.
Greece is like a car with faulty engine where you try to improve things by altering wheels,putting new fuel because the engine is taboo to touch.So the car starts and then immediately stops.
peterwegThreads: 35
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 Feb 22, 12, 13:40    #20
southern:
The problem of Greece is structural



The problem with the Euro is Germany.
Germany should set up a permanent transfer union or be kicked out of the Euro. They are parasites on the weaker economies, using them to hold down the German export costs and destroying the other Euro economies industry.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
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 Feb 23, 12, 18:10    #21
The Germans are just jeaalous because the Greeks had all those benefits and a warmer climate. Considering it's location, there is no reason why Greece cannot do more exporting.
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 Feb 23, 12, 18:20    #22
PlasticPole:
The Germans are just jeaalous because the Greeks had all those benefits and a warmer climate. Considering it's location, there is no reason why Greece cannot do more exporting.


Nobody envies someone down on their knees.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
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 Feb 23, 12, 18:24    #23
Countries like Greece and Spain are, geographically, in a better position to export than countries like Germany. They should actually be ahead of the Germans and charging Germany to use their ports. Don't they realize this?
rozumiemnicThreads: 4
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 Feb 23, 12, 18:52    #24
PlasticPole:
Considering it's location, there is no reason why Greece cannot do more exporting.

and what would it export? Olives?
if you mean to be a container port for Europe, there's already Naples.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 23, 12, 22:25    #25
rozumiemnic:
and what would it export? Olives?

Don't forget retsina, bazookis and Demis Roussos.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
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 Feb 23, 12, 22:59    #26
Greece or Spain can manufacture and export anything Germany does.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 23, 12, 23:11    #27
PlasticPole:
Greece or Spain can manufacture and export anything Germany does.

They've had at least as much chance as Germany has to do so already, but I don't see half as many factories.
southernThreads: 116
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 Feb 23, 12, 23:24    #28
PlasticPole:
Countries like Greece and Spain are, geographically, in a better position to export than countries like Germany. They should actually be ahead of the Germans and charging Germany to use their ports. Don't they realize this?


Unfortunately the terrible road system of the Balkans cancels such a possibility.Germans import through Ambersa,Rottherdam,Amsterdam etc which take royalties and of course Hamburg.(which for this reason is the richest city in Germany).

JonnyM:
Greece or Spain can manufacture and export anything Germany does.


No cars or high quality machinery.Unfortunately our production in textiles shoes household devices(refrigerators,washing machines etc) stopped after everything was made much more expensive by the euro and also due to Chinese etc competition.
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 Feb 24, 12, 03:55    #29
peterweg:
The problem with the Euro is Germany. Germany should set up a permanent transfer union or be kicked out of the Euro. They are parasites on the weaker economies

Nonsense! For most (if not all) members of the EU, Germany is either the largest or second largest trading partner for both exports and imports. There is no EU or Euro without Germany, whether you like it or not, and I'm pretty sure they have a different idea of who the parasites really are.
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 Feb 24, 12, 07:53    #30
PlasticPole:
Countries like Greece and Spain are, geographically, in a better position to export than countries like Germany. They should actually be ahead of the Germans and charging Germany to use their ports. Don't they realize this?


It's the Euro. It's too strong for their economies. Why buy something from Greece when it's so expensive. For instance produce, if I can buy lettuce from Poland when the zloty is 0.30 to the dollar why buy from Greece when the Euro is 1.30 to the dollar. I can buy a lot more Polish lettuce with that exchange rate.

TheOther:
Nonsense! For most (if not all) members of the EU, Germany is either the largest or second largest trading partner for both exports and imports. There is no EU or Euro without Germany, whether you like it or not, and I'm pretty sure they have a different idea of who the parasites really are.


Europe misses a strong England to counter weight Germany.


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