The best Poland ever?

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,834 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Apr 20, 11, 21:25 #1
Addressing the Sejm and turning to the PiS opposition benches Foreign Secretary Radosław Sikorski said: 'This is the best Poland we have ever had. Learn to love it!' Do you agree?

Zman	Apr 20, 11, 21:30 #2
Of course I do and many others too. That's why voted for PO and will continue to do so, I hope :-)

GregrogThreads: 3 Posts: 114 Joined: Feb 2, 09 ♂	Apr 20, 11, 21:43 #3
No, Poland had it's Golden Age and what's we have now is not even comperable to XVI century.

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Apr 20, 11, 21:45 #4
Polonius3: 'This is the best Poland we have ever had. Learn to love it!' I agree - it must be so from his perspective.

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Apr 20, 11, 21:47 #5

Polonius3:

Do you agree?

Of course.

Poland is now at no risk from her neighbours, she has a pretty much ethnically pure country (which helps when avoiding nasty debates about breaking up the country, ala Spain), she's wealthy in world terms, her people are respected, it has political stability - even despite the bad things said about PiS, they still handed over power when defeated democratically - really, what's to complain about?

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Edited by: SeanBM Apr 20, 11, 21:56 #6

Gregrog:

No, Poland had it's Golden Age and what's we have now is not even comperable to XVI century.

Hmmm... I wonder... I always think the past is romanticised too much.

Mortality rates, health services, No pensions, distribution of wealth, no internet...oh my Goud! no Polish Forums ;)

Polonius3:

Do you agree?

The quality of life has vastly improved for the majority of the people here in Poland over the ten years I have known her.

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Apr 20, 11, 22:00 #7

Hmmm... I wonder... I always think the past is romanticised too much.

Mortality rates, health services, No pensions, distribution of wealth, no internet...oh my Goud! no Polish Forums ;)

You can't compare XVI century Poland to XXI. You can compare XVI Poland, France etc. Comparison of XVI is far more better for Poland then the XXI one. There's even no need to explain why:)

According to Sikorski's words. Yes, during his life he haven't seen better Poland:)

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Apr 20, 11, 22:11 #8
Gregrog: what's we have now is not even comperable to XVI century. Gregrog: You can't compare XVI century Poland to XXI. Hey man, stay on one side of an argument would you? ;) Gregrog: According to Sikorski's words. And according to your words? :)

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Apr 20, 11, 22:13 #9

SeanBM:

The quality of life has vastly improved for the majority of the people here in Poland over the ten years I have known her.

Formal, empty, official optimism so characteristic for people like him. We live in the officially optimistic society; official optimism tries to shore up what is failing - economy (unemployment, poverty), basically everything what matters for common people. Thus official optimism feeds despair rather than hope and in addition to that conceals the truth also. The strength of the PiS opposition is that they are not false, artificial and out of this world like Mr Sikorski.

GregrogThreads: 3 Posts: 114 Joined: Feb 2, 09 ♂	Apr 20, 11, 22:15 #10
Hey man, stay on one side of an argument would you? ;) Maybe I haven't been understood. Polish Golden Age was in XVI century. In this age Poland(Commonwealth of Both Nations to be exact) was in far better situation (in relation to XVI) then today in relation to present times. So my words - It is not the best Poland ever. This is the best Poland from 1939 till now.

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Apr 20, 11, 22:35 #11

AdamKadmon:

The strength of the PiS opposition is that they are not false, artificial and out of this world like Mr Sikorski.

You must be kidding, right?

The opposition are incredibly weak - they don't have a coherent message, and have failed to oppose the Government on many, many issues where they could have opposed - instead choosing to focus on Smolensk and other trivial issues. In fact, the SLD are pretty much the true opposition right now - which is pathetic.

AdamKadmon:

We live in the officially optimistic society; official optimism tries to shore up what is failing - economy (unemployment, poverty), basically everything what matters for common people.

Most common people don't have problems in Poland with unemployment and poverty. And don't you think it's time that Poland started being optimistic rather than doom and gloom, as has been the case for the last 200 years or so?

AdamKadmon:

Thus official optimism feeds despair rather than hope and in addition to that conceals the truth also.

What is "the truth"? The country is getting richer, even "poor" people are still rich in world terms - heck - Poland even manages to do a damn fine job of educating people to a minimum standard.

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Edited by: AdamKadmon Apr 20, 11, 22:46 #12

delphiandomine:

What is "the truth"? The country is getting richer, even "poor" people are still rich in world terms - heck - Poland even manages to do a damn fine job of educating people to a minimum standard.

I do not argue with you. The election will show what is true and what is not. And those who do not bother to vote are the best indication of the number of people excluded from the society; they are the real outcasts.

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Apr 20, 11, 23:05 #13

AdamKadmon:

those who do not bother to vote are the best indication of the number of people excluded from the society; they are the real outcasts.

The number of people who do not bother to vote are not excluded by society, they exclude themselves. And if they are too lazy to vote, who's fault is that?

In the 2007 parliamentary elections, he (Tusk) got more than 534,000 votes, which is the best individual result in the electoral history of the Third Polish Republic. His Civic Platform won the elections with 41% of the votes.

Webster's Online Dictionary

I think some people are only happy when they're moaning about something... AdamKadmon :)

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Apr 20, 11, 23:08 #14
SeanBM: I think some people are only happy when they're moaning about something... AdamKadmon :) I think some people are only happy when they're jubilant about something... SeanBM :(

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Apr 20, 11, 23:29 #15
Polonius3: Addressing the Sejm and turning to the PiS opposition benches Foreign Secretary Radosław Sikorski said: 'This is the best Poland we have ever had. Learn to love it!' Do you agree? Yes!!!

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Edited by: AdamKadmon Apr 21, 11, 00:19 #16

SeanBM:

The number of people who do not bother to vote are not excluded from society, they exclude themselves. And if they are too lazy to vote, who's fault is that?

Uneducated, ordinary people long time ago saw through the system and that is the reason why they do not vote. We have democracy but actually, if we look at it closely, the same sort of people end up running the shows and taking most of the rewards - democracy or not, it's a bit of a farce.

delphiandomine:

Poland even manages to do a damn fine job of educating people to a minimum standard.

Now about that minimum standard of education. In the last years, the percentage of young people with higher education in Poland is the highest in Europe. But those people gonna end up in GB, Germany or any other country doing at best menial jobs. Is this the reason to be complacent? A knowledgeable fool is a greater fool than an ignorant fool.

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Apr 21, 11, 10:21 #17

AdamKadmon:

Uneducated, ordinary

AdamKadmon:

saw through the system

Right, good one, uneducated people vote for pis, uneducated people follow the voice of populism.
Some of the people who refrain from voting are really lazy therefore probably uneducated and stupid.
Some of them are educated and take a conscious choice not to vote.

AdamKadmon:

higher education in Poland is the highest in Europe

Just because there was a tendency of getting high education which for 60% of these people is just a cheap piece of paper, you can't say that is actually means anything. It doesn't, there are morons getting management degrees from shady schools, from schools which will allow anyone to study and get the degree, going through courses on weekends.

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Apr 21, 11, 10:29 #18
We have democracy but actually, if we look at it closely, the same sort of people end up running the shows and taking most of the rewards - democracy or not, it's a bit of a farce. That is what I heard 20 years ago from ordinary people and still hear this here and there. I didn't believe in it 20 years ago, but now I think that they were just more intelligent than me.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Apr 21, 11, 10:39 #19
So...any alternatives? Because if you don't have any and only nag around Sikorski is right. You won't have any better Poland!

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Apr 21, 11, 10:59 #20
Bratwurst Boy: So...any alternatives? Read this. What do you think about 'the socialized enterprise'?

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Apr 21, 11, 11:01 #21

Polonius3:

Addressing the Sejm and turning to the PiS opposition benches Foreign Secretary Radosław Sikorski said: 'This is the best Poland we have ever had. Learn to love it!'
Do you agree?

Yes most certainly in terms of living standards and peace, they have never had it so good. And yet PIS acts like an opposition in exile, they are totally irresponsible and always spoiling for a fight. They will never get into government and that is good news for Poland.

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Edited by: AdamKadmon Apr 21, 11, 11:09 #22
hague1cmaeron: they have never had it so good Who are they? What means 'good'? How do you know that?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 21, 11, 11:26 #23
AdamKadmon: What do you think about 'the socialized enterprise'? Smells like socialism/communism if you ask me. You might think you can control it, cage it, but once in place it will grow. Dead end avenue as history has shown...

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Apr 21, 11, 11:28 #24

AdamKadmon:

What do you think about 'the socialized enterprise'?

It's an interesting concept, and I think the Government should have been brave enough to completely privatise Ciegelski, the shipyards, etc very early on - creating the concept of "one worker, one share". The situation where Solidarity took control of the industries, but didn't have any ownership stake (and thus, no need to care when the Government was paying) was a complete disaster - as can be seen now. Certainly, subsidies should have been cut - and the factories left to fight on the open market under worker-ownership.

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Apr 21, 11, 11:31 #25
Bratwurst Boy: Smells like socialism/communism if you ask me. Excuse my fallible nose but to me it smells more like freedom.

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Edited by: gumishu Apr 21, 11, 12:22 #26

delphiandomine:

Poland is now at no risk from her neighbours,

Poland is at risk that her neighbours will manipulate her into disadvantageous economical position. And you see it happening - the gas deal with Russia = the highest prices of natural gas in Europe (among many disadvantages for Poland in the contract) - of course one needed Polish accomplices to sign the deal - go figure ( if you can read in Polish I can provide you with an article by Igor Janke about the background of the deal)
pan-European climatical agreements (Tusk claimed to achieve a great success for Poland on one of the European summits in the field) will be very unfavorable for Polands economy - it can prove a nasty surprise for most Poles that in the year 2012 their electricity bills will soar (perhaps even double) - I'm not familiar with the details of many agreements now but can think that some European countries want to take advantage of the fact that they don't have coal powered economy

another threat - once the Nord Stream pipeline is finished Russia can shut the gas supplies to Poland for whatever reason (like don't dare to mess with our attempts to overtake Ukraine or Georgia (or maybe later Belarus)) - why did Germany want such pipeline if they see a partner in Poland (or maybe they don't see Poland as partner but rather as something else) - if you ask - there is an easy all-land route for Russian gas to the EU that would not cross Ukrainian or Belarusian territory (my guess a new land pipeline would cost as little as 1/10th of the Nord Stream - official figures are 4 times higher cost but they have long gone over budget) - but would go through Latvia, Lithuania and Poland - to my eyes Germans desired exclusive partnership with Russia in some industrial fields (read money)

Poland is not fearing military conquest at the moment - even those you would deem political paranoists

delphiandomine:

Most common people don't have problems in Poland with unemployment and poverty. And don't you think it's time that Poland started being optimistic rather than doom and gloom, as has been the case for the last 200 years or so?

education degenerates - in many aspects - today's children can only dream of those educational aids my generation had in school (just an example of how education deteriorates) - don't you think it will affect the standard of life of Polish people - menial jobs in Britain won't last forever -

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 21, 11, 12:32 #27

AdamKadmon:

Excuse my fallible nose but to me it smells more like freedom.

You are free already...

gumishu:

Poland is at risk that her neighbours will manipulate her into disadvantageous economical position.

Yes, that's why the billions out of the EU-funds...and the billions of foreign investments...open borders for Poles to go where the jobs are and support their people at home...etc....
Without that you would be all blooming paradise!

gumishu:

once the Nord Stream pipeline is finished Russia can shut the gas supplies to Poland for whatever reason

There is only one reason..if Poland doesn't pay for the gas.

gumishu:

Poland is not fearing military conquest at the momen

Peace!

gumishu:

education degenerates

Germany wasn't happy about what the PISA study said either....we took the lesson and work on it.
So should you.

No reason to think about the country being on the brink of destruction!

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Edited by: gumishu Apr 21, 11, 12:37 #28

delphiandomine:

Most common people don't have problems in Poland with unemployment and poverty. And don't you think it's time that Poland started being optimistic rather than doom and gloom, as has been the case for the last 200 years or so?

but they will when their bills soar - and consider how fast Polish debt is rising - can you see it's possible impact on Polish economy (higher taxes - possible unemployment) - I don't call that optimism if you ignore all those alarming signals

Bratwurst Boy:

gumishu:
once the Nord Stream pipeline is finished Russia can shut the gas supplies to Poland for whatever reason

There is only one reason..if Poland doesn't pay for the gas.

there was no instance Poland has not paid for its Russian gas - even in the direst moments for our economy - and even with not so great contracts with Russia - now that may change with the 'best ever gas deal with Russia' that can eventually put many big industries in Poland out of business - unless the avarage Kowalski pays a share of the industrial gas bill

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 21, 11, 12:47 #29

gumishu:

there was no instance Poland has not paid for its Russian gas -

That's what I meant...there is no danger that Russia cut's delivery be it not disagreements in payments. That's what happened with Ukraine...hence the need for an independent pipeline not going through countries with financial problems.

Should the over land pipeline again be disrupted because of differences with middle countries not paying Poland will get also gas from the North stream....

gumishu:

....can eventually put many big industries in Poland out of business

I'm not sure what you mean...hopefully not the forced charge middle countries take for allowing the pipelines on their land?

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Edited by: gumishu Apr 21, 11, 12:51 #30

Bratwurst Boy:

That's what I meant...there is no danger that Russia cut's delivery be it not disagreements in payments. That's what happened with Ukraine...hence the need for an independent pipeline not going through countries with financial problems.

Lithuania and Latvia proved that they act responsibly in respect of economy (on the national level) - gas pipeline through these countries thus leaving Ukraine and Belarus behind was (and still is) a viable option - Germany chose not to treat Poland, Latvia and Lithuania (all EU countries) as reliable partners - maybe it is not goal for those who run Germany to have real partners in Poland, Latvia and Lithuania

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