Chance of Islam talking over Poland ?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 13, 10, 13:12 #121
Very true, Dariusz. The problem with radical groups of any denomination is that they indiscriminately target people for just being of a certain type. I understand vendettas and the like but I can't tolerate the mindless taking of innocent lives. Nobody should be made to suffer for the folly of their politicians.

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Mar 13, 10, 13:16 #122
Seanus: Nobody should be made to suffer for the folly of their politicians. Surely there is a problem with that argument in a democracy. People have no sense of responsibility.

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Mar 13, 10, 13:21 #123

I knew sb would invoke that but it doesn't really wash as an argument. You don't vote politicians in on that basis. Look what Izetbegovic, Milosevic and Tudjman did in Yugoslavia.

So you believe that people can control all the decisions of their politicians? We both know full well that that is absolutely absurd, convex. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny and innocent people should not be put in the line of fire because of political decisions. The reality is that most people vote based on tax rates and family options etc, not for game playing.

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,001 Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂	Mar 13, 10, 13:24 #124
Seanus: Nobody should be made to suffer for the folly of their politicians. Half the time it isn't the politicians that get us involved in stuff we shouldn't be involved in. It often lies with the non-elected elements of the governments (intelligence, military etc...) that are responsible for the silliness.

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Mar 13, 10, 13:35 #125

mephias:

Amathyst As you can see it is not what happened.

while you may have been tolerant of other religions it seems that there was a tax for non-muslims:

Perhaps the most important of the special regulations was the demand that Christians and Jews pay a special tax, the jizya, that was not paid by Muslims. This tax was paid by adult Christians and Jews who lived in Islamic states.

http://www.globaled.org/nyworld/materials/ottoman/turkish.html

rock:

If it were so, you could find very few christains in the Balkans. Turks ruled Balkans for 500 years and for most of the Turks it is still motherland like Anatolia. Millions of Turks settled in Bulgaria, Greece, ex-Yugoslavia and Romania and Balkans became a motherland.

rock, how is this any different to the urquars and other turkish groups that you claim should have their land back?

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Mar 13, 10, 13:41 #126

Spot on, Shawny. Behind-the-scenes cabals, paramilitary formations and foreign scumbags tend to play more of a part. In the Milosevic trial, not one of the witnesses who claimed that he gave the orders could even get close to proving it.

Intel, spot on again, Shawny. The governments are just the messengers for the BS. For example, that OBL is still on the go. All senior intel members in the loop know the lie.

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 811 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER ♂	Mar 13, 10, 14:14 #127
King Sobieski: while you may have been tolerant of other religions it seems that there was a tax for non-muslims: Yes there was, but in my opinion it was something acceptable when you think conditions on those ages.

jedenThreads: - Posts: 297 Joined: Nov 30, 09 ♂	Mar 13, 10, 14:56 #128
Yes there was, but in my opinion it was something acceptable when you think conditions on those ages i agree, probably Arabs from 7-9 th century were more tolerant than, spanish christians, and present arabs. But everybody remmeber the janissary issue, turks have never been as tolerant as Eureepean.

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Edited by: rock Mar 13, 10, 19:17 #129

King Sobieski:

while you may have been tolerant of other religions it seems that there was a tax for non-muslims:

Perhaps the most important of the special regulations was the demand that Christians and Jews pay a special tax, the jizya, that was not paid by Muslims. This tax was paid by adult Christians and Jews who lived in Islamic states.

This means christains did not force to be muslims. At least an acceptable way for those ages as Mephias told. Ottomans always prefer for christains stay christain as they could collect more tax. You see Money talks. If a person changes his religion because of tax, think if he/she is a true believer or not. As I told otherwise at the end of 500 years you could not find any christain.

King Sobieski:

rock, how is this any different to the urquars and other turkish groups that you claim should have their land back?

King Sobieski as a Turk I want Uyghurs take back their lands back of course and I wish we protect our lands in Balkan. Because we stayed there 500 years and if you look at the Ottoman documents Balkans considered as main land of Turks maybe more than Anatolia. Of course this is our way of thinking.

But the rule of world (all time rules) is you have to be always strong to protect your lands. Today nothing changed. Look at USA. What the hell she is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Who gave them the duty of being World Police? Who is taking the oil incomes in Iraq now? Is there a country named Iraq now? Is there any force to stop them ? What is UN doing other than watching silently ?

Every country has right to have additional lands if she is strong enough. Nowadays it is USA's turn. We will see what will happen in the future.

jedenThreads: - Posts: 297 Joined: Nov 30, 09 ♂	Mar 13, 10, 19:41 #130
Because we stayed there 500 years Poland had for 400 years Smoleńsk ( city near Moscow) but nobody wants it back...

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 811 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: mephias Mar 13, 10, 20:31 #131
jeden: but nobody wants it back... We don't want Balkans back either (at least me :) ). We just feel the connection in our hearts and there are some still some Turkish people living in the region in different countries who establish an organic connection that's all.

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂	Edited by: Crow Mar 13, 10, 20:54 #132
mephias: We just feel the connection in our hearts what? you have emotional problems that affect you hearts? Well, if Serb Dr Radovan can help, just say

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 811 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: mephias Mar 13, 10, 21:02 #133
Crow: Crow No we don't. Your beloved Radovan and Ratko has all kind of problems after their big guilts you better worry about them.

♂

Edited by: Seanus Mar 13, 10, 21:05 #134

Crow, he is the guy that sanctioned cowardly attacks on innocent civilians in places like Sarajevo and other cities. He was hardened by the attacks of Oric on Serbs in Srebrenica and then spoke against Muslims in the breakaway Parliamentary meeting. I don't see him as a hero at all. Many Serbs are with me on this, Macedonians too. He was a twisted megalomaniac who wasn't defending Serbia with a gun against marauding Mujas like other brave Serbs were.

Poles would rally round together without all the dubious allegiances of the Balkans. You can't honestly say that your so-called heroes made the best decisions for Serbia and Serbs.

Mladic and Karadzic, come off it. Mladic had a chance at Greece to redeem himself but he went the other way and committed genocide. The tapes of Zoran Petrovic were not available before, they are now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e5MCWrdbAk, VERY harsh indictment against Mladic and what he did. Sorry Crow, I don't approve of the taking of innocent life. By all means, go after those armed NATO officers or Muja Doves. Defend your country, I admire that kind of spirit. However, those men and kids did nothing worthy of court action, did they?

Still, a precedent was in place, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V36LHFf-NI

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Mar 14, 10, 03:09 #135

rock:

This means christains did not force to be muslims. At least an acceptable way for those ages as Mephias told. Ottomans always prefer for christains stay christain as they could collect more tax. You see Money talks. If a person changes his religion because of tax, think if he/she is a true believer or not. As I told otherwise at the end of 500 years you could not find any christain.

not only coz of tax rock, but converts were encouraged.

In the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Muslim dhimmi system, Armenians, as Christians, were guaranteed limited freedoms (such as the right to worship), but were in essence treated as second-class citizens. Christians and Jews were not considered equals to Muslims: testimony against Muslims by Christians and Jews was inadmissible in courts of law. They were forbidden to carry weapons or ride atop horses, their houses could not overlook those of Muslims, and their religious practices would have to defer to those of Muslims, in addition to various other legal limitations.[21] Violation of these statutes could result in punishments ranging from the levying of fines to execution.

rock:

King Sobieski as a Turk I want Uyghurs take back their lands back of course and I wish we protect our lands in Balkan. Because we stayed there 500 years and if you look at the Ottoman documents Balkans considered as main land of Turks maybe more than Anatolia. Of course this is our way of thinking.

rock, you are an educated person. surely you can see the double standards in what you have written. on one hand you're saying that you encourage uyghurs to take their land back which the chinese took and other side you're saying that coz turks were in the balkans for 500 years it is turkish land.

honestly, if this is the way an educated man looks at things i can see why there is so much trouble with turkish migrants in europe. they think their adopted countries are indeed turkish land.

rock:

But the rule of world (all time rules) is you have to be always strong to protect your lands. Today nothing changed. Look at USA. What the hell she is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Who gave them the duty of being World Police? Who is taking the oil incomes in Iraq now? Is there a country named Iraq now? Is there any force to stop them ? What is UN doing other than watching silently ?

the usa isnt trying to conquer any land, they just think they're the global police.

♂

Mar 14, 10, 04:01 #136

In the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Muslim dhimmi system, Armenians, as Christians, were guaranteed limited freedoms (such as the right to worship), but were in essence treated as second-class citizens. Christians and Jews were not considered equals to Muslims: testimony against Muslims by Christians and Jews was inadmissible in courts of law. They were forbidden to carry weapons or ride atop horses, their houses could not overlook those of Muslims, and their religious practices would have to defer to those of Muslims, in addition to various other legal limitations.[21] Violation of these statutes could result in punishments ranging from the levying of fines to execution.[/quote]

If you compare Turks approach with Spanish approach to muslims and jews in the same ages you can easily see the difference as you are an educated man King Sobieski.

King Sobieski:

rock, you are an educated person. surely you can see the double standards in what you have written. on one hand you're saying that you encourage uyghurs to take their land back which the chinese took and other side you're saying that coz turks were in the balkans for 500 years it is turkish land.

honestly, if this is the way an educated man looks at things i can see why there is so much trouble with turkish migrants in europe. they think their adopted countries are indeed turkish land.

I am Turkish and everywhere I support Turks. This is very normal. Maybe you have to confess your feelings about your nation or go on playing your role.

If you want to understand Turks you have to know about Turkish history. Turks always move to west during their history. Starting point was west of China and Siberia, then Russia, Iran and then Anatolia and Balkans. Turkic Huns and Avars go more in Europe.
Turks admit every country they settle their land and continue her journey to west. Some of the Turks stayed in the east such as Uyghurs, Kırghız, Kazaks, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Azeris, Tatars, Baskurts, Chuvash.

Turks admit everybody who can speak Turkish and call himself/herself Turk is Turk. So we mixed and have a big nation.

There is journey to west in our genes King Sobieski. There is nothing to do about it :)
Yes, we turned back from Vienna but who knows what will happen in the future.
You see Turks still want to be more in the west and trying to enter EU. It is another way of journey to the west. If I were European and have an idea about Turks I would admit their peaceful will without hesitation :)

Europeans think Turks = Muslims. Noooooooo. More than that Turks were Turks when they were not muslim.

King Sobieski:

the usa isnt trying to conquer any land, they just think they're the global police.

Ah no problem then. LOL

rockThreads: 5 Posts: 1,449 Joined: Jun 13, 08 ♂	Mar 14, 10, 04:28 #137
King Sobieski: honestly, if this is the way an educated man looks at things i can see why there is so much trouble with turkish migrants in europe. they think their adopted countries are indeed turkish land. None of the Turks say Germany is Turkish land. LOL

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Mar 14, 10, 05:53 #138

rock:

If you compare Turks approach with Spanish approach to muslims and jews in the same ages you can easily see the difference as you are an educated man King Sobieski.

when was the spanish inquisition again?

though, i would be interested to know if christians/jews/whoever else conquered turkey and you were finally able to kick them out if it would be done without bloodshed?

rock:

Ah no problem then. LOL

i personally dont agree with american international foreign policy.

rock:

None of the Turks say Germany is Turkish land. LOL

it seems to be your mindset that wherever turks settle then that becomes turkish land.

how many generations before they do?

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Mar 14, 10, 07:51 #139

Seanus:

Crow, he is the guy that sanctioned cowardly attacks on innocent civilians in places like Sarajevo and other cities.

hardly. i really have doubts that he had interest in attacks on Sarajevo civilians

Seanus:

He was hardened by the attacks of Oric on Serbs in Srebrenica

all Serbs were upset about events in Srebrenica. We really didn`t like that mujaheedines mutilate local Serbs. But, i can only imagine how upset were people who had cousins and families in Srebrenica

Seanus:

Sarajevo

if you wanted to end war in Bosnia you needed to control Sarajevo. Once when Serbs were attacked they wanted to finish war as soon as possible

Now, problem with Sarajevo situation is that local Sarajevo Serbs (thousands of people) were considered to be hostages in town, terrorized and brutalized by Bosnian Muslim army and mujaheedines. Not to mention that Muslims used Sarajevo airport as their main transportation route for reinforcements from Arabic countries, all kind of military equipment, etc, etc.

So, forces of Bosnian Serbs were unable to enter town and town was of strategic importance. Serbs then decided to impose blockade on block Sarajevo town.

♂

Mar 14, 10, 12:15 #140

Crow, he hated Muslims and made that known. He chose his targets from the hills above and you can't tell me that it was merely coincidental that so many non-Serbs died. Some acts were staged by Muslim forces, I agree, but he wreaked his own form of havoc.

Karadzic was in that video I posted. If my family had been mutilated in that way, with no foreseeable justice being administered on the horizon, I would likely have sought revenge but not on innocent people. Oric being exonerated is a sick joke! Assoilzie that man once more and the Serbs should spark riots.

That's true enough, Crow. It appears to be much more of an Islamic town, that was my impression. You have to cut at the source which is what the Serbs did. I find it regrettable that townsfolk had to live in constant fear but they can blame the EU and NATO for getting involved against the Serbs.

Kosovo being taken was a slap in the face. It would be like NATO removing Israel from their control. Well, not quite, but along those lines.

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Mar 14, 10, 12:35 #141

Meanwhile, getting back to the subject of the thread, Gazeta Wyborcza's online site has an article:

Kim są muzułmanie w Polsce? (who are the Muslims in Poland?)

http://warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,95190,7653076,Kim_sa_muzulmanie_w _Polsce_.html?as=2&ias=2&startsz=x

I'll just print the end here (wtih translation following)

"Czy Polska jest atrakcyjna dla muzułmańskich imigrantów?

- Nie. Nawet uchodźcy z Czeczenii traktują nas jak kraj tranzytowy. Muzułmanie w Polsce, razem z przybyłymi w ostatnich latach, to zaledwie 0,06-0,08 proc. ludności. Mniej niż 0,1 proc. Warto podkreślić, że nowi muzułmanie w Polsce to nie są gastarbeiterzy, jak kiedyś w Europie Zachodniej. Nie wyciągają ręki po zasiłek. To ludzie, którzy sami potrafią sobie tu radzić, głównie biznesmeni, w tym także ci, którzy prowadzą restauracje czy sprzedają kebaby, bo oni też tworzą sobie i innym miejsca pracy, wypełniają niszę na rynku taniej gastronomii."

translation (quick and dirty but to give the basic idea)

Is Poland attractive to Muslim immigrants?

No. Even refugees from Chechnya treat (Poland) as a transit country. Muslims in Poland, including those arriving in recent years, make up only 0.06-08 percent of the population. That's less than one per cent. It's worth stressing that new (arrival) Muslims in Poland are not guestworkers as used to happen in Western Europe. They're not looking for handouts. These are people who can make it on their own, mainly businessmen including those running restaurants or selling kebabs, because they're creating jobs for themselves and others, they're filling a niche in the inexpensive (takeout) food market.

♂

Edited by: rock Mar 14, 10, 12:43 #142

King Sobieski:

though, i would be interested to know if christians/jews/whoever else conquered turkey and you were finally able to kick them out if it would be done without bloodshed?

Then you be interested also to Turks, when Armenians betrayed us beginning from 1880's and killed thousands of Turks in all of the cities of Turkey. Turkey tried to save herself in the condition when most of her soldiers were in different frontiers in WW1.

King Sobieski:

i personally dont agree with american international foreign policy.

When it comes to USA your voice is very careful and cool. You know more than 1.000.000 people were killed until now.

King Sobieski:

it seems to be your mindset that wherever turks settle then that becomes turkish land.

how many generations before they do?

Historically it is a reality.

Because we are a mobile nation King Sobieski. Turks got bored when stayed in the same geography very long time :)

But in 21th century conditions changed. It seems we are settled in our current borders.

rockThreads: 5 Posts: 1,449 Joined: Jun 13, 08 ♂	Mar 14, 10, 14:58 #143
Seanus: No slogans, no propaganda, hard facts please. hahahahahaaahaa. Long live Seanus. You make me laugh.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Edited by: Seanus Mar 14, 10, 15:10 #144
I do my best. He has to step up to the plate and state his case. I could bandy about a slogan that 'Szkocja jest najpotężnieszym krajem na świecie' but I wouldn't be right. Serbia had to observe how it's done internationally and play it all out through protracted negotiations. They came up short in that regard.

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Mar 14, 10, 15:33 #145

mephias:

Not so convincing an English say this. You were the master of occupation in dirtiest way.

Not sure we forced people to convert (well there were missionaries I suppose but it was done by free will) - You're right we were (past tense) masters of occupation, along with the French and Spanish...Im sorry that we did colonise, we wouldnt have half the problems we do now, we wouldnt have 3rd world immigrants pouring in the doors.

We also left a legacy, of decent schools and a railway system in India, what did you lot leave behind?

http://www.bishopcottonshimla.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalka-Shimla_Railway

mafketisThreads: 15 Posts: 1,830 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Mar 14, 10, 15:34 #146
First two questions that need to be answered: 1. What was the ethnic (and citizenship) make up of the province in 1988? 2. What, if anything, happened between 1988 and .... let's say 1992 that would make the majority of the population there want to rethink the political status quo?

MEMBER ♂

Mar 14, 10, 15:47 #147

Amathyst:

Not sure we forced people to convert

Neither we did.

Amathyst:

...Im sorry that we did colonise,

You colonised for wealth and suck blood of that people for hundreds of years.

Amathyst:

we wouldnt have half the problems we do now, we wouldnt have 3rd world immigrants pouring in the doors.

Not sure if it has anything to do with colonisation. Your government can close the door why they don't ? Maybe you need those people.

Amathyst:

We also left a legacy, of decent schools and a railway system in India, what did you lot leave behind?

You are so good. Indians must be grateful for your colonization!.

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Mar 14, 10, 15:55 #148

Mephias is right, Amathyst. Any Brit that can't admit it is seriously blind. We were and still are a very self-interested leeching country. Look at any conflict and you will see multiple evidence. Israel, for example. In when good and out when bad. We treated them like crap, just like almost everywhere else.

Holland has caps and is taking more active steps to contain any radical Islamic movements. Scandinavia too. Britain just wants to keep the option alive of becoming a police state like the US and Russia aspire to be.

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Mar 14, 10, 16:13 #149

Seanus:

Britain just wants to keep the option alive of becoming a police state

It isn't already? Is there any country in the world where the government spies on its citizens (excuse me, subjects) as much? Any country where the justice system punishes those who resist theft or personal violence? Any country where all adults are assumed to be pedophiles until proven innocent? Any country where the government encouraged immigration to try to physically change the makeup of the country?

A few years ago I was wondering why the British government was doing the things it was doing. The only hypothesis that fit the data was they were trying to destroy British society (including social trust).

I still haven't found any hypothesis that fits the facts any better, though I'm not so sure why they've set on that particular course.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 14, 10, 16:18 #150
Well, America brought in 'sneak and peak' under the Patriot Act so they are faring little better. Pedophiles? I haven't heard of that one, that would seem to fit Israel and their pedo porn rings better. With all due respect, the EU encourages it more. Thatcher was against it, that was her last cry before stepping down.

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