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Chance of Islam talking over Poland ?

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Mar 14, 10, 16:30 #151

Seanus:

Holland has caps and is taking more active steps to contain any radical Islamic movements.

We're trying our best, but it would be nice to have some support from other European countries aswell. I mean, just look at how Wilders got treated in the UK, simply for trying to make people aware of the intolerant aspects of Islam. It has nothing to do with hate-mongering, and there's nothing racist about that either. He's trying to point out the problems, in order to solve the problems. He's not advocating racial hatred or hatred towards Arabians in anyway, because the fact that you're opposing an intolerant ideology has zero to do with spreading hatred.

:)

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Mar 14, 10, 16:38 #152

Well, all it needs is for a prominent figure here to speak up and Poland will be in the line of fire. I'm familiar with the work of Wilders and he was just disseminating info. The Danish cartoonist now has a bounty on his head and his home in Aarhus is under lock and key.

We have to eradicate exagerrated hysteria, you are so right, Arien. Even the most minor of 'provocation' can go wrong. Look at the 'mistake' in Georgia which could have sparked further conflict. Yet again, staged.

We have to alert national subjects and citizens who may come under attack. It is generally global elites that stir it up and we cannot let that happen. Let the leaders die and the people live.

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Edited by: King Sobieski Mar 15, 10, 04:36 #153

rock:

Then you be interested also to Turks, when Armenians betrayed us beginning from 1880's and killed thousands of Turks in all of the cities of Turkey. Turkey tried to save herself in the condition when most of her soldiers were in different frontiers in WW1.

what does this have to do with my hypothetical question on how you think turks would behave when rising up against their conquerers?

betrayed turkey? that is like saying poland betrayed russia by rising up against her.

rock:

When it comes to USA your voice is very careful and cool. You know more than 1.000.000 people were killed until now.

are you following me around on this forum?

do i have to start a thread on usa politics that will eventually get moved to "random thread"?

most americans on this forum openly question their governments role and dont have your one eyed approach.

Arien:

I mean, just look at how Wilders got treated in the UK, simply for trying to make people aware of the intolerant aspects of Islam.

what about dawkins the atheist?

is he allowed free movement?

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: Crow Mar 15, 10, 18:23 #154

Seanus:

I don't see him as a hero at all. Many Serbs are with me on this, Macedonians too. He was a twisted megalomaniac who wasn't defending Serbia with a gun against marauding Mujas like other brave Serbs were.

Radovan Karadzic wasn`t politician. He is simple representative of Serbian intelligentsia, that reacted when Serbs were endangered on biological, cultural, racial, national and religious level.

Radovan Karadzic appeared more openly in Serbian public after Bosnian Muslim leader published and distributed his Islamic declaration where he described future of Bosnia as separated from Yugoslavia, as Muslim Caliphate organized on the principles of sharia law. Karadzic warned Bosnian Muslim public that something like that, for Serbs of Bosnia isn`t option, that Serbs wants to stay in Yugoslavia (what was Serbian right by Yugoslav and Bosnian constitution!) and live as Christians, that Muslims of Bosnia choose very dangerous path if choose follow Alija Izetbegovic.

Soon after, Bosnian Muslims attacked federal Yugoslav army and local Bosnian Serbs. Then, after official Serbia supported politically Bosnian Serbs, NATO, EU and Saubi Arabia labeled Serbia as aggressor and accused Serbian intelligentsia and leadership for intention to create Greater Serbia.

What i want to tell you Seanus, Radovan Karadzic was even in worse position then Slobodan Milosevic, risking everything in struggle against overwhelming foes. He wasn`t corrupt politician. He defended Serbs and Slavija.

Because of Serbs like Radovan Karadzic, Poles don`t need to feel shame because one Jadwiga originate from Bosnia- that ancient Serbian and Slavic land that is attacked, heavy attacked its truth, on its knees, BUT, that still resist.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 15, 10, 19:09 #155
However, it is almost a foregone conclusion that there will be a loaded case against him. The justice administered by the ICT for Yugoslavia will be found to be lacking. Again, much will depend on how much he proves the plans for the Islamic Caliphate.

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Mar 15, 10, 21:28 #156

King Sobieski:

betrayed turkey? that is like saying poland betrayed russia by rising up against her.

Turks did not take Anatolia from Armenians King Sobieski. We beat Byzantians in 1071 and Anatolia opened to Turks.

Armenians were living under the rule of Greeks and they helped us during the war against Greeks although they were also christains like Greeks. Think how Greeks were behaving them.

Turks and Armenians lived in peace almost 800 years from 1071 to 1870's in peace under Turkish rule. Nobody can show any bad event between Turks and Armenians in that period.

After 800 years of peace, by the great support of England and Russia, they began to fight for their state in Anatolia. This means our neighboors began to kill us in everywhere in Anatolia.

There are letters between Armenians and English and Russian government. They say to Armenians, kill Turks everywhere. Then Turks will kill you and we will tell to whole world that Turks are killing Armenians and force Ottomans to give you the east of Turkey.

Beginning from the 18th century Ottomans were called the ill man of Europe. When we came to 1912, Ottomans lost all her lands in Balkans. Until 20th century although they are weak, Ottomans managed to balance the two powers England and Russia and manage to survive. England and Russia decided to share Ottoman lands in the beginning of 20th century. Noticing that even Anatolia will be shared between England and Russia, Ottomans decided to ally with Germany in 1914 WW1.

Turks fight in a lot of frontiers during WW1. Çanakkale (Gallipoli) , Yemen ( Arabia ), Galicia (Poland), Kars (Sarıkamış).

Even hundreds of doctors, engineers were killed in Gallipoli.

When almost all of the Turkish man were fighting in different places, by the help of England and Russia, Armenians accelerate their cruelty against Turkish and Kurdish people, armless women and children. Thousands of Turks were killed and it was growing day by day. There are lot of mass graves in Anatolia. If you visit some cities in the east of Turkey you can listen many sad stories from Turks and Kurds whose grandmothers, grandfathers were killed by Armenians.

In war conditions, it was impossible for Turks to stop this, finding guilty Armenians and judge them in courts.

Our ally Germans gave the current Turkish government the idea of driving the Armenians to Syria in order to control them.

Ottoman government decided to force to emigrate Armenians. ( Armenians living in İstanbul,Bursa and catholic and protestan Armenians excluded )

Ottoman government did its best to transfer Armenians to Syria ( Syria was also Ottoman land at that time)

Most of the Armenians reached Syria. But unfortunately some of them were killed on their way to Syria by some gangs (10.000 Armenians) and or epidemic illnesses ( 40.000 Amenians)

Approxiamately 50.000 to 100.000 Armenians were killed or died. But none of them were killed by Ottoman army or government. There was not a systematic killing process.

Most of the Armenians emigrate to different countries from Syria. There are thousands of Armenians are living in USA, France, Russia, Iran, Australia, Argentina, Uruguay etc.

Not less number of Turks were killed by Armenians during 1870-1915 period.

So sad events happened in this period but it was Mutual.

sami	Mar 17, 10, 13:45 #157
youtube.com/watch?v=ElysVtm0ZLc&feature=related

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Edited by: richasis Mar 17, 10, 13:59 #158

convex:

You know, for all the complaints about being backwards, intolerant, aggressive, hateful... It seems that the US does a hell of a lot better job at integration of Muslims than multicultural Europe.

Yes, and Detroit is a prime example of this 'diversity'.

ShawnH:

It often lies with the non-elected elements of the governments (intelligence, military etc...) that are responsible for the silliness.

Where I live, these elements are primarily of the Jewish/Zionist persuasion.

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Mar 17, 10, 15:28 #159
Very intersesting. And hopeful. What does Islam say about non-believers?

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Mar 17, 10, 15:29 #160

This all sounds very nice. But what about practice what you preach? If muslim people followed all these rules, how come they blow people up, kill eachother because of religious intolerance and generally all muslim countries have war amongst either neighbours or eachother? How come there is poverty, no education, no progress in major muslim countries that have 100% control over their own state? Why is that the only muslim countries that have progress is the ones that use western technology like Saudi Arabia and the other oil states?

I just read about Thailand. And the only instability with minorities was with the muslim population in the south. Why is that?

If islam is the religion of peace, why are they involved in all the wars?

Dariusz

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 17, 10, 16:18 #161
For rock, mephias or any other follower of Islam here, is there any other reason asides from fanaticism for Muslims shouting 'Allahu Akhbar' before proceeding to maim or violently torture sb? Surely Allah wouldn't have wanted all those barbaric and draconian measures being taken, right?

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Mar 17, 10, 16:20 #162
That's why I asked about treatment of non-believers. All the things Sami quoted are about how muslims should treat other muslims.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 17, 10, 16:25 #163
According to some articles (NOT the Quran), they are not to be tolerated and are even to be converted. There are very few shades of grey according to such sources but different people want to paint bad pictures and we must remember that. We all see how it works in practice between different denominations. Look at the Sunnis and Shia, for example. The West does their part to deepen the divide.

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Mar 17, 10, 16:28 #164

Now you know what they have in mind for Europe; including Poland...

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan:

"Turks living abroad should take the citizenship of their new home country -- not, however, with the intention of becoming an integrated part of that society, but so they can become politically active, said Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan"

"We need to inoculate European culture with Turkish culture."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,684125,00.html

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Mar 17, 10, 16:48 #165

I don't believe that he said that. If he did, it was likely just after being riled at Davos ;) ;) Turkey is losing patience with a number of scenarios, most notably having the Viva Palestina convoy blocked. They have been nice to Israel, supplying them with key things like water, and it isn't reciprocated.

I don't think Erdogan wants the spread of Islam. Maybe the ATC want to stir things up in Europe, then it would be possible.

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Edited by: TheOther Mar 17, 10, 16:55 #166

Seanus:

I don't believe that he said that.

Well, there were 1500 witnesses...
Don't forget that Erdogan's government recently arrested a whole bunch of military commanders in Turkey, who are stern supporters of secularism. I personally believe that this guy has an islamic agenda and tries to hide it as best as he can. Occasionally, he slips though. Ask Bratwurst Boy about the Turkish community in Berlin, and you will know that Erdogan is playing with fire here.

MEMBER ♂

Mar 17, 10, 17:51 #167

Seanus:

is there any other reason asides from fanaticism for Muslims shouting ...

No there is not.

TheOther:

I personally believe that this guy has an islamic agenda and tries to hide it as best as he can.

Even if he has he can not succeed only result of this kind of aim can be civil war and collapse of Turkey

TheOther:

Erdogan's government recently arrested a whole bunch of military commanders in Turkey,

All army in Turkey is stern supporter of secularism. 4-5 commander's doesn't mean anything he needs to arrest everyone. On the other hand this also may have positive effects for future. there was 3 military revolution in last 50 years in Turkey and even a soldier haven't got a punishment because of that. Army also shouldn't be untouchable.

TheOther:

but so they can become politically active

This is not good. but it can also be interpreted in positive way, Think about jewish lobby in U.S. They have impact on every decision on U.S. made and how many jews actually living there.

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Edited by: TheOther Mar 17, 10, 18:02 #168

mephias:

but it can also be interpreted in positive way

You need to take the first half of Erdogan's sentence into account, too: "...not, however, with the intention of becoming an integrated part of that society". What he's saying is that Turkish people should not integrate into their host countries, but become politically active instead while protecting Turkish interests abroad. The difference to the Jewish lobby in the USA is that those people are tightly integrated into the American society.

Do you agree that Erdogan is playing with fire? I mean, how can you tell all those millions of Turks/ Kurds in Europe not to integrate? That is asking for trouble in my eyes.

mephias:

Army also shouldn't be untouchable

I agree with you - as long as Erdogan and his government are not trying to get rid of political opponents just to take over control of the country. Don't know though, if the latter is even possible.

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09 ♂	Mar 17, 10, 18:26 #169
Czarnkow1940: Hi people what are your thoughts on the possibility of Islam talking of over Poland Polish crusaders will rout these islamic fallefel enthusiasts and stop them in their tracks.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 17, 10, 18:51 #170
Islam talking over Poland it can`t take Serbia. Same way it can`t take Poland Slobodan Milosevic despite wish of so called west to pollute Slavic world

MEMBER ♂

Mar 17, 10, 18:51 #171

TheOther:

Do you agree that Erdogan is playing with fire?

I read the original text of the speech in Turkish. He is talking about dual citizenship and he says some Turkish citizens do not want to get passport from foreign countries because they see it as an identity problem. And he suggest that if you are living in a foreign country get citizenship and become politically active. "Carrying a second passport doesn't mean that you are leaving your primary identity" what he exactly says. So it is more close to what I estimate before he don't say do not integrate more says don't forget your culture and what you leave behind. If you have some friends who speaks Turkish they can translate you from below link. Spiegel interpret it in most negative way as I thought.

http://www.internethaber.com/erdogandan-irkcilik-elestirisi-233872h.ht m

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,861 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Edited by: f stop Mar 17, 10, 22:01 #172
again, does Quaran offer any guidance on how the non-believers should be dealt with??

FredChopinThreads: - Posts: 138 Joined: Jul 26, 09 ♂	Mar 17, 10, 22:02 #173
sami: Not one letter or syllable has been changed over the past l4 centuries. And in many cases, the thinking of followers of Islam has not changed in the last 14 centuries either.

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Mar 17, 10, 22:06 #174

This is a question to rock, mephias and any other Muslims here. Would I be right in saying that there are more dedicated adherents of Islam who are aware of the teachings of the Hadeeth? Too many Christians are 'sticker folk', too many don't go to church. This is not really acceptable as the priest is supposed to be a form of conduit/intermediary for Catholics. If you call yourself sth, you should BE that thing.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 17, 10, 22:16 #175
Well, they say Mohammed was a pedo, co Ty na to, eh? ;) ;) They say he ate at the 'Allahu Snakbar' ;) ;) ;) ;) See, it's not so nice when you openly lambast a religion, is it? So, kindly address the thread or hop it.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: mephias Mar 17, 10, 22:24 #176

Seanus:

Would I be right in saying that there are more dedicated adherents of Islam who are aware of the teachings of the Hadeeth?

I don't know your question may be answered with some scientific research or statistics. It is debatable if people really aware but some teachings are part of the lifestyle and learnt without any effort.

BTW who said I am muslim. I believe in god and raised in a muslim family but I don't find religious practises realistic so I can't classify myself as a muslim. On the other hand I defend muslims without hesitation because most of the opinions about them here biased and unacceptable. In average there is very few difference between a religious catholic and muslim family.

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Mar 17, 10, 22:35 #177

There appears to be more indoctrination in Islam. Many more appear to draw on the teachings and examples of the Quran. Many Christians are not so adept at pointing to provisions from the Bible and don't pray as regularly as Muslims. I remember a friend of mine called Kefayet Choudhuary and he prayed 5 times a day and told me a few things of the Koran. He wanted me to convert but I just wasn't that interested in any religion after being forced into it as a kid. We find our own way thereafter.

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Mar 17, 10, 22:39 #178

TheOther:

I personally believe that this guy has an islamic agenda and tries to hide it as best as he can. Occasionally, he slips though.

He's not trying to hide anything, he has banned advertising of alcohol...even though they brew their own beer and spirits...not sure how long they'll be as secular and happy go lucky...hard line islamic ways are spreading through what were moderate muslim countries..

mephias:

In average there is very few difference between a religious catholic and muslim family.

You dont know much about Catholic families then.

king polkagamon	Mar 17, 10, 22:43 #179
Sami tell us is it true that the Quran was written on the back of a camel?(we need extensive sources please).

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: mephias Mar 17, 10, 22:44 #180

Seanus:

We find our own way thereafter.

Yes it is exactly what should happen, religion is one way it is up to you how to interpret it. I am against any kind of missionary work. Everyone has a brain to choose whatever they want to believe, whatever they want to do. I also don't like this sami kind of guys.

Amathyst:

not sure how long they'll be as secular

I already said many times what will happen if anyone attempt to step back from secularity in Turkey.

Amathyst:

You dont know much about Catholic families then.

Or you don't know much about muslim families.

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