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Changing Face in Poland: Skinnhead Puts on a Skullcap

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posts: 91

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Mar 2, 10, 15:05 #1

Not sure if this has been posted already but I just read this article and found it fascinating:

WARSAW — When Pawel looks into the mirror, he can still sometimes see a neo-Nazi skinhead staring back, the man he was before he covered his shaved head with a skullcap, traded his fascist ideology for the Torah and renounced violence and hatred in favor of God.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/world/europe/28poland.html?pagewante d=1&em

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Mar 2, 10, 15:33 #2
an interesting story with a bitter sweet end.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 15:34 #3
Every year there is a story of a skinhead becoming a Jew. Pirog, mentioned in the article, has no identifiable talent, but now he publicly declared himself gay and Jewish and he is on TV nonstop. Everyone else yawned.

MatowyThreads: 1 Posts: 519 Joined: Jul 4, 09 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 15:57 #4
It sounds like he is just going from one extreme to another. Weak character.

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 16:01 #5
But the last line of the article was funny - he wants to become a shochet because he's good with knives. Talk about skills transfer!

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 16:17 #6
Can you imagine a Jew taking off his skullcap and becoming a skinhead?

MatowyThreads: 1 Posts: 519 Joined: Jul 4, 09 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 16:20 #7
Exiled: Can you imagine a Jew taking off his skullcap and becoming a skinhead? There is actually a movie about that. Some Jewish guy being a skinhead, but being Jewish at the same time.

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 16:33 #8
Matowy: There is actually a movie about that. Some Jewish guy being a skinhead, but being Jewish at the same time. The Believer.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 2, 10, 17:07 #9
Reminds me of the Nazis who became the most ardent communists after the war...."attracted to extremes" my ass! Some people just need dogmas to survive.... Somehow I think being an orthodox Jew now is yet not the end of his journey! He is still quite young, no reason he will not end up as a reasonable being some more years and experiences later.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Mar 2, 10, 17:28 #10

Exiled:

Can you imagine a Jew taking off his skullcap and becoming a skinhead

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6985808.stm

To me Nazis in Israel is as logical as Nazis or skinheads in Poland. Amazing what lack of education will do to peoples minds. :(

Matowy:

It sounds like he is just going from one extreme to another. Weak character.

You really think so? I believe it takes balls of brass to turn away from all his friends, his past identity, his biases and the hatred toward Jews to pursue his family's past. It probably made it easier on him that he took that new journey along with his wife but still...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 17:54 #11
skysoulmate: It probably made it easier on him that he took that new journey along with his wife but still... Well, the orthodox Jews can (as all fanatics) be quite a nasty bunch too... IMHO he only exchanged one fanatism with another one! Before that he used to harass Jews, now he found out he is one himself, then changed to harassing whoever is now his enemy as he is being told now...

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 2, 10, 18:09 #12
Bratwurst Boy: Well, the orthodox Jews can (as all fanatics) be quite a nasty bunch too... I must say that I have a good deal more tolerance for skinhead neo-nazis than I do for ultra-orthodox Jews. Skinheads tend to be too stupid to know any better but all Jews should be able to remember from the painful experience of previous generations what the end product of extremism is.

♀

Mar 2, 10, 18:31 #13

Bratwurst Boy:

Well, the orthodox Jews can (as all fanatics) be quite a nasty bunch too...

Come on Braty, I live very close to Orthodox Jews, they are not fanatics, they are lovely family orientated people, or at least the ones I know personally and thats quite a few.

Harry:

ultra-orthodox Jews

There's the difference...there are not many "ultra" orthodox Jews where I live - the majority are in Israel...

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 2, 10, 18:38 #14

Amathyst:

Come on Braty, I live very close to Orthodox Jews, they are not fanatics, they are lovely family orientated people, or at least the ones I know personally and thats quite a few

They still prefer their dark age traditions....I despise especially the slow killing of living animals for their religious reasons (!) or that the men are busy in tora schools whereas their women have to do all the works, or that women haven't the same rights as men at all (sounds familiar?).

They brought an article in Spiegel not far back about orthodox teenager running away from their
orthodox homes (in Israel), wanting to have a chance for a life and education..
They are as fanatic, intolerant and unforgiving to every non-komformist as every other religious fanatic group!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,678264,00.html

....
But Ultra-Orthodoxy is more like a cult that intellectually cripples children in the name of religion

Eerily familar to some other cults one could mention if you ask me...

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Mar 2, 10, 18:42 #15
Bratwurst Boy: They are as fanatic, intolerant and unforgiving to every non-komformist as every other religious fanatic group! like any fanatic denomination. End of.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 18:43 #16
aphrodisiac: like any fanatic denomination. End of. Okaaaay :)

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Edited by: Amathyst Mar 2, 10, 19:05 #17

Bratwurst Boy:

I despise especially the slow killing of living animals for their religious reasons

They have to be stuned under law in the UK, so no slow death.

Bratwurst Boy:

They still prefer their dark age traditions....

How many orthodox Jews do you actually know personally?

Bratwurst Boy:

(in Israel),

Im talking about the ones that live in the UK, what they do in their own country is up to them.

Bratwurst Boy:

or that the men are busy in tora schools whereas their women have to do all the works, or that women haven't the same rights as men at all (sounds familiar?).

You cant even compare them to muslims...not even in the same ball park. They're not as much in the dark ages as you might like to think. The article is quite old so Im sure things have moved on even more...

The growing awareness of the status of women has been manifested in the increasing presence of women in managerial and decision-making positions. The last few years have seen record numbers of women in these positions: the current Knesset has the largest number of women Knesset Members -16 out of 120 members; Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government also includes a record number of women ministers - the minister of Education, the Minister of Industry and Trade and the Minister responsible for Regional Development. In addition, two women are deputy ministers: in the Ministry of National Infrastructure and in the Ministry of Defense. Since the establishment of the State, one woman (Golda Meir) has served as Prime-Minster. In the 1998 local elections, two women were elected as mayors (of the cities of Netanya and Herzliya), and the number of female council members rose from 153 in 1993, to 240. Three women now serve as justices of the Supreme Court and 36 are judges of District Courts; women constitute 34% percent of the total number of judges. The State Attorney is also a woman.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/The%20Advancemen t%20of%20the%20Status%20of%20Women%20-%20Israel%2020

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 2, 10, 19:08 #18

Well, if they have moved on, don't adhere to their dark age traditions anymore nobody would call them "Orthodox" or even "Ultra" anymore, because they aren't.

But this ex-Skinhead doesn't sound as if he decided for a moderate form of his new belief!

Oh and I think I can judge fanatic Taliban for example as an all around bad thing without having lived with them together in a terrorist camp!

PS: This article is from the 18th February this year.

02/18/2010

Escape from Israel's Ultra-Orthodox

Why should these Orthodox nuts change now as they didn't for a millennia???

Amathyst:

The growing awareness of the status of women has been manifested in the increasing presence of women in managerial and decision-making positions.

Really!

Ultra-Orthodox newspapers edit women out of cabinet photo

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/setbacks-for-women-in-isra el-pakistan-and-afghanistan/

Two ultra-Orthodox Jewish newspapers have altered a photo of Israel’s new cabinet, removing two female ministers.

Limor Livnat and Sofa Landver were grouped with the rest of the 30-member cabinet for their inaugural photo.

But Yated Neeman newspaper digitally changed the picture by replacing them with two men. The Shaa Tova newspaper blacked the women out.

Publishing pictures of women is viewed by many ultra-orthodox Jews as a violation of female modesty.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂	Edited by: szkotja2007 Mar 2, 10, 19:20 #19
Amathyst: Im sure things have moved on even more... Keep it quiet in the back there !!! Get to the back of the bus By early 2009 more than 55 such lines were operating around Israel. Typically, women are required to enter through the bus back doors and sit in the back of the bus, as well as “dress modestly.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 19:28 #20
....Women who refuse to sit in the back of the bus are frequently threatened verbally and physically by haredi men who “enforce” the segregation system. What nice people....

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Mar 2, 10, 19:59 #21
skysoulmate: and found it fascinating: What's so fascinating in this text ? Little, made up story for naive people.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Mar 3, 10, 03:08 #22

Bratwurst Boy:

...But Yated Neeman newspaper digitally changed the picture by replacing them with two men. The Shaa Tova newspaper blacked the women out.

Publishing pictures of women is viewed by many ultra-orthodox Jews as a violation of female modesty.

BB - it wasn't that long ago a Polish Microsoft ad did something similar, remember? Rasism, sexism and often just ignorance has many shapes and forms.

Microsoft in web photo racism row

I know very few Jews personally and even fewer ortodox. However the few I know are top notch individuals who are very intelligent and bend over backwards to be friendly and good neighbors.

Grzegorz_:

What's so fascinating in this text ? Little, made up story for naive people.

What makes you say that?

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07 ♂	Apr 26, 10, 20:22 #23
Changing Face in Poland: Skinnhead Puts on a Skullcap Maybe his head got cold.

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	Apr 26, 10, 21:35 #24
Exiled: Can you imagine a Jew taking off his skullcap and becoming a skinhead? They call themselves Zionists. Amathyst: the majority are in Israel... Others call them Extremists.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Apr 26, 10, 21:56 #25
Changing Face in Poland: Skinnhead Puts on a Skullcap Oba Ma surely knows what investments are necessary in Poland. Oba Ma and his friends from Saudi Arabia, Germany, France, Britain and Israel

Miguel ColombiaThreads: 3 Posts: 711 Joined: Apr 20, 10 ♂	Apr 27, 10, 08:37 #26
G-d bless him!

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Edited by: yehudi Apr 27, 10, 10:05 #27

Bratwurst Boy:

Before that he used to harass Jews, now he found out he is one himself, then changed to harassing whoever is now his enemy as he is being told now...

Which people do you think an orthodox jew in Warsaw is going to harass? Why do you have to judge everyone badly? I don't know this person or his personality, but I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt. If the story is true and he was confronted suddenly with the truth about his identity he could have reacted in much less constructive ways. Instead he undertook to change his life and try to repent. I hope he succeeds and that you all stop being so cynical.

Bratwurst Boy:

Well, if they have moved on, don't adhere to their dark age traditions anymore nobody would call them "Orthodox" or even "Ultra" anymore, because they aren't.

...and here you're using circular reasoning.
First you claim that orthodox jews are backward and have dark age traditions (an odd accusation coming from a pagan). Then when confronted with the fact that many orthodox jews are wonderful, progressive people, you state that this makes them no longer orthodox – because they don't meet your definition of "orthodox".

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 27, 10, 10:18 #28
Yehudi has a point in that we should look at his repentance. I'm sceptical of penance but it's all about the use of judgement.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Apr 27, 10, 15:04 #29
How is becoming a jew better than being a skinhead? The only real difference is jews have more hair, the attitude is pretty much the same.

Miguel ColombiaThreads: 3 Posts: 711 Joined: Apr 20, 10 ♂	Apr 27, 10, 15:16 #30
Sokrates: The only real difference is jews have more hair, the attitude is pretty much the same. Yeah ,because you see Jews beating up everybody who isn´t like them.

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