CIA tortures - will former Polish leaders face war crimes charges?

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 12:38 #1
The CIA relied on intelligence based on torture in prisons in Uzbekistan, a place where widespread torture practices include raping suspects with broken bottles and boiling them alive, says a former British ambassador to the central Asian country. CIA Mystery Flights (Szymany, Poland) Will Poland’s former leaders face war crimes charges for hosting secret CIA prison?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 12:48 #2
Not a chance. Kwasniewski and Miller are untouchable. Besides, which war are they refering to? The war on terra?

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 13:00 #3
1jola: Not a chance. Kwasniewski and Miller are untouchable. Untouchable? To the CIA, everybody's expendable. Poles don't forget Katyn; Muslims won't forget this.

♂

Oct 8, 10, 13:02 #4

1jola:

The war on terra?

Leszek Miller: prawa terrorystów i morderców nigdy nie będą ważniejsze niż bezpieczeństwo państwa. Wiedzę na temat tego, gdzie bandyci chcą dokonać zamachu, uzyskuje się często w brutalny sposób. Przypominam, że odnosi się to nie do niewinnych sierotek, ale do fanatycznych morderców. Nie można tolerować sytuacji, kiedy to niektórzy ludzie bardziej martwią się o prawa terrorystów niż o potworne zagrożenie, jakie sobą reprezentują.

Sygnały dnia - Pierwszy program polskiego radia

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 13:05 #5
^ Wow, Poland keeps good company these days.

♂

Oct 8, 10, 13:51 #6

1jola:

Kwasniewski and Miller are untouchable

Soon after the CIA stopped using Stare Kiejkuty, planes began arriving in neighbouring Lithuania.

I was approached by the head of the State Security Department in the summer of 2003, Rolandas Paksas, Lithuania's president at the time, told the BBC. He asked for my permission to allow our foreign partner to bring people in secret to Lithuania and hold them here.

Mr Paksas says he refused. Soon afterwards, he was impeached on corruption charges.

BBC News

It seems that CIA has a firm hold on Eastern Europe.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 8, 10, 14:10 #7
AdamKadmon: Will Poland’s former leaders face war crimes charges for hosting secret CIA prison? No. Next question: bears, do they sometimes sh!t in the woods?

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 14:15 #8
Harry: Next question: bears, do they sometimes sh!t in the woods? Do you mean that this is so obvious, or what?

♂

Oct 8, 10, 14:19 #9

Excommie PM Miller is using the arguments advanced by the conservative law and order crowd in the US. Why worry about brutal interrogaiton methods when the life of innocent thousands may be at stake (as in 9/11). In America the bleeding-heart leftist liberals are all concerned about the poor black juvenile delinquent who came from an underprivleged broken home rather than the bruised and battered white grandfather he beat up to steal his wallet.
The strange thing is that lefties like Miller usually use those ideological arguments ('we support the downtrodden, disadvantagedmasses...bla-bla'), but here he is using a pragmatic argument.
Maybe the about-turn is only to save his own skin. What do you think?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 14:24 #10
AdamKadmon: It seems that CIA has a firm hold on Eastern Europe. You wanted to say FSB not CIA. Mr Paksas says he refused. Soon afterwards, he was impeached on corruption charges. I like your logic though. Nixon failed to wave back to me and I got him impeached, but the naive think it had something to do with tapping the Democrats.

♂

Edited by: AdamKadmon Oct 8, 10, 14:27 #11

Polonius3:

The strange thing is that lefties like Miller usually use those ideological arguments ('we support the downtrodden, disadvantagedmasses

Never heard him speaking like that. He is an oportunist commie like most of them. The only thing which is important for them is to know from where the wind blows and set the sails accordingly.

1jola:

I like your logic though

Not mine. This is only a quatation from BBC News.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 8, 10, 14:41 #12
AdamKadmon: Do you mean that this is so obvious, or what? Let me put it another way: the Pope, might he be Catholic? Polonius3: What do you think? I think it's a bloody good job that you don't live in or visit Poland.

David_18Threads: 111 Posts: 1,212 Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 15:00 #13
Will America face war crime charges? It's their Organisation ;)

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 15:03 #14
Even Harry knows that Kwas and Miller cannot be convicted of any offense in Poland.

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 15:04 #15
Harry: Let me put it another way: the Pope, might he be Catholic? Miller is overconfident and cocky. This is an ill omen for his future. But after all, you may be right.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 15:08 #16
Polonius3: Why worry about brutal interrogaiton methods when the life of innocent thousands may be at stake (as in 9/11). The problem lies in when they torture innocent people. That's one of the things that our loony leftist founders were seeking to avoid.

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 15:13 #17
convex: our loony leftist founders Do you mean America's Founding Fathers?

♀

Oct 8, 10, 15:19 #18

Polonius3:

In America the bleeding-heart leftist liberals are all concerned about the poor black juvenile delinquent who came from an underprivleged broken home rather than the bruised and battered white grandfather he beat up to steal his wallet.

You're missing the point. The difference in approaches is reactive vs proactive. Let's build enough jails and give enough guns to the police vs lets see if we can prevent this black from the underpriviledged home from becomeing a criminal. Is that second approach the "lib" everyone is pissed off about?

♂

Edited by: AdamKadmon Oct 8, 10, 15:30 #19

f stop:

The difference in approaches is reactive vs proactive.

Do you want more studens than convicts? After all there must be someone who empties holding tanks and does other low end jobs. Why in America when you think of crime and social problems you always talk about black Americans? Does this have something to do with skin colour?

"On The Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 8, 10, 15:48 #20
AdamKadmon: CIA tortures Show me one secret service in the world that doesn't. My statement has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with it, I'm just pointing out the fact of using tortures by secret services in general.

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Edited by: AdamKadmon Oct 8, 10, 16:02 #21
guesswho: Show me one secret service in the world that doesn't Ah, that really shocks me! I've never thought about secret services that way. Maybe except KGB, Gestapo or commies in Poland, but only in '40's or '50's.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 16:12 #22
AdamKadmon: Do you mean America's Founding Fathers? the same.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 8, 10, 16:57 #23
AdamKadmon: Ah, that really shocks me! It shocks me that it shocked you, lol I mean it's kind of obvious, don't you think?

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 17:10 #24
guesswho: I mean it's kind of obvious Let's guess who you are. Secret agent? Am I right?

grubasThreads: 20 Posts: 1,452 Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂	Oct 8, 10, 17:22 #25
This whole tread is a rubbish.Americans DON'T torture!!!

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Edited by: guesswho Oct 8, 10, 17:27 #26
AdamKadmon: Let's guess who you are. Secret agent? Am I right? Why, because I don't have any illusions about secret services "work", wherever they might be? Do you seriously believe that Russians, Germans, French, Polish etc. don't do it too? You can't be that naive.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Oct 8, 10, 17:28 #27
guesswho: Polish don't do it too Poles do not torture!! they don't have a proper equipment!!

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 8, 10, 17:29 #28
pgtx: they don't have a proper equipment!! Good 1, lol

♂

Oct 8, 10, 17:47 #29

guesswho:

Do you seriously believe that Russians, Germans, French, Polish etc. don't do it too? You can't be that naive.

In civilized countries since Enlightenment tortures are abomination, and whenever they are exposed, like in this case, people accused of them should stand trial, regardless of what you or anybody else think of universality of this practice.

If secret services do this and nobody knows, then you can think of people taking part in this practice as sadists of masochists, but if this becomes public that's the most serious matter, more than anything else.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 8, 10, 18:13 #30
AdamKadmon: more than anything else. Well, definitely not more than anything else but I know what you're trying to say :-)

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