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The cross in Polish parliament - Does it bother you?


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WielkiPolakThreads: 21
Posts: 154
Joined: Jun 3, 11 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 22:11    #1
Obviously there is quite a lot of debate currently going on in Poland about the cross.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that it should stay and think the argument is covering up more important matters. Yes some people are not religious but does a cross on a wall really make it that hard to concentrate?

I can not stand adverts that I see all over the place out in the streets, they annoy me, but they are there, I just accept them.

Perhaps we can take crosses from cemeteries, they might distract those who go there and are not Christians? How about the roadside to commemorate a death as it might distract non religious drivers? I say just leave it, the majority of Poland is Catholic, so leave it alone.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
Posts: 2,529
Joined: Apr 27, 07  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 22:14    #2
The only people who crosses would bother are Jews or 'secular humanists' AKA communists.
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: pawian  Oct 17, 11, 22:18    #3
Cross is a good symbol. Polish history is marked with crosses.

But elementary justice requires that it is accompanied by other religious symbols, equally good.

d
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 22:43    #4
no, the presence of the other symbols is as senseless as it would be to place other flags up there as well. Poles are Poles and Poles are majority catholic, why insist otherwise?
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 22:46    #5
=Foreigner4]as it would be to place other flags up there as well.

What is wrong with placing all the flags?

s

=Foreigner4] Poles are majority catholic,

Majority doesn`t mean 100%.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 23:11    #6
By accepting the corss Mieszko I brought his country into the fmaily of european nations, and it was the Chruch that crowned Poland's first monarch, Bolesław Chrobry. The cross has been a part of Poland's history and culture since the very beginning. As the great Adam Mickiewicz who wrote:
'Tylko pod krzyżem, tylko pod tym znakiem, Polska jest Polską a Polak Polakiem!
Under the cross Prince Henryk the Pious died in Legnica in 1241 defending Europe against the pagan Tartar hoirdes, Sobieski did so at the gates of Vienna, and Father ignacy Skorupka led Poles against the Bolshevik invaders in 1920. The Solidarity revolution also took place under the sign of the cross.
That is part of Poland's national heritage. The French insist on their extreme laïcité, banning cassocks in public and tearing Muslim shawls away from school girls. But in Switzerland, all court trials take place in the present of a crucifix on the judge's bench.
Each country should have the right to cultivate its own heritage, and in Poland the cross is defintiely a major part of it.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 23:11    #7
The cross is symbolic here so it's in the right place.
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: pawian  Oct 17, 11, 23:20    #8
=Polonius3]By accepting the corss Mieszko I brought his country into the fmaily of european nations, and it was the Chruch that crowned Poland's first monarch, Bolesław Chrobry. The cross has been a part of Poland's history and culture since the very beginning. As the great Adam Mickiewicz who wrote:
'Tylko pod krzyżem, tylko pod tym znakiem, Polska jest Polską a Polak Polakiem!
Under the cross Prince Henryk the Pious died in Legnica in 1241 defending Europe against the pagan Tartar hoirdes, Sobieski did so at the gates of Vienna, and Father ignacy Skorupka led Poles against the Bolshevik invaders in 1920. The Solidarity revolution also took place under the sign of the cross.
That is part of Poland's national heritage. The French insist on their extreme laïcité, banning cassocks in public and tearing Muslim shawls away from school girls. But in Switzerland, all court trials take place in the present of a crucifix on the judge's bench.
Each country should have the right to cultivate its own heritage, and in Poland the cross is defintiely a major part of it.

Exactly. I agree fully.

But don`t forget other denominations have also contributed into Polish heritage. Quite a lot.

Orthodox road crosses in southern Poland, 170 km from Krakow, old and new:

s

s

d

s

Do you know how religiously tolerant Poland was in 16/17 century?
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Foreigner4  Oct 17, 11, 23:40    #9
pawian:
What is wrong with placing all the flags?

in what context?

pawian:
Majority doesn`t mean 100%.

Is the R.C. given special status in the constitution? I don't even support catholicism but to deny the majority (vast and overwhelmingly so) Poles their right to give special consideration to R.C. is odd.
isthatu2Threads: 13
Posts: 5,225
Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 23:49    #10
joepilsudski:
The only people who crosses would bother are Jews or 'secular humanists' AKA communists.

MMMm, yes,erm, I think you are getting those folks mixed up with Vampires....
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 23:51    #11
isthatu2:
MMMm, yes,erm, I think you are getting those folks mixed up with Vampires....

Don't forget the shape-shifting alien Rothschilds.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 23:52    #12
pawian:
But elementary justice requires that it is accompanied by other religious symbols, equally good.

an brilliant tribute to our heritage

Seanus:
The cross is symbolic here so it's in the right place.

fully agree

Foreigner4:
no, the presence of the other symbols is as senseless

If one would know history it would been senseless NOT TO have their presence

pawian:
Do you know how religiously tolerant Poland was in 16/17 century?

apparently we were hunting witches an mass (the Saxon king influenced an witch hunting), murdering people of different sexual orientation (Hmm can't remember where I learned that... maybe... never?), killing Jews (jedwabne for instance there was a vote and majority of Poles came together and elected an government which had most important campaign: kill all Jews! Oh hang on... Sorry! Misinterpretation! It was some Polish villagers who had learned about a rumor that some Jews had killed a child... So sorry) , imprisoned ethnic minorities for just being that certain ethnic group (Poland made this little organization called: Tajna służba polityczno policyjna do spraw mniejszościowych! Oh wait.. wrong again so sorry :)), burning capitals (Poland is famous for burning down various towns and capitols killing off their entire population like the Romans did with Carthage! If I only came up with a name...)

You see pawian, one can't be unique, or different. Cause in medieval times all Europeans did crusades... had knights... had big castles... lords who were subjugating their subjects and etc.
f stopThreads: 33
Posts: 2,861
Joined: Dec 9, 09  Pictures: 1 ♀ 		Edited by: f stop  Oct 18, 11, 00:39    #13
"Too dumb for science? Try religion!"
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 00:56    #14
f stop:
"Too dumb for science? Try religion!"


"Too cynical for religion? Try science!"
f stopThreads: 33
Posts: 2,861
Joined: Dec 9, 09  Pictures: 1 ♀ 		 Oct 18, 11, 01:24    #15
;) how about this one: "I'm fine with teaching creationism in public school as long as we can teach evolution in Sunday school."
PWEIThreads: 5
Posts: 894
Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 01:28    #16
f stop:
;) how about this one: "I'm fine with teaching creationism in public school as long as we can teach evolution in Sunday school.

If you pray in my school, I'll think in your church.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 01:31    #17
f stop:
"I'm fine with teaching creationism in public school as long as we can teach evolution in Sunday school."

biased or unbiased? ;)

PWEI:
If you pray in my school, I'll think in your church.

Outloud I guess! xD
f stopThreads: 33
Posts: 2,861
Joined: Dec 9, 09  Pictures: 1 ♀ 		Edited by: f stop  Oct 18, 11, 01:32    #18
lol. A good one! My tweet buddy comes up with some of the most hilarious one-liners. Here is another one of his:
"He's had a change of heart. Jesus loathes you.".
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 01:35    #19
f stop:
"He's had a change of heart. Jesus loathes you.".

What an dreadful miss spell :O
f stopThreads: 33
Posts: 2,861
Joined: Dec 9, 09  Pictures: 1 ♀ 		 Oct 18, 11, 01:40    #20
"In my version of heaven, everybody else goes to hell so I don't have to listen to their bullshit anymore." ;)
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 01:53    #21
f stop:
"In my version of heaven, everybody else goes to hell so I don't have to listen to their bullshit anymore." ;)

Why not allowing everyone to go to heaven including you but make yourself deaf? Would be better? :)
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 07:00    #22
=Mr Grunwald]You see pawian, one can't be unique, or different. Cause in medieval times all Europeans did crusades... had knights... had big castles... lords who were subjugating their subjects and etc.

So for you the Middle Ages continued till 16/17 century?
:):):):)
legendThreads: 9
Posts: 819
Joined: Apr 23, 11 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 07:13    #23
joepilsudski:
The only people who crosses would bother are Jews or 'secular humanists' AKA communists


Amen. Aka globalists.
RichfilthThreads: 8
Posts: 327
Joined: Mar 8, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Richfilth  Oct 18, 11, 07:26    #24
The time when the cross unified Poland was the time when the rich nobles impoverished the masses, when there was no education for all, and when women had no vote and few rights.

During that time, I can understand why it may seem right for a cross to represent Poland, but these days it is not.


joepilsudski:
The only people who crosses would bother are Jews or 'secular humanists' AKA communists.


Communism was a time when people gave all their money to the institution and what they got back were words and promises. People who want the cross must want a return to those times.
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 16:08    #25
Doesn't the Polish Constitution call for seperation of Church and State? If so, then clearly the crucifix should go.
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 16:11    #26
Mr Grunwald:
If one would know history it would been senseless NOT TO have their presence

That "explanation" doesn't say anything except that you think there's a reason that you're not sharing. Are those symbols in honor of tradition that exists or of those who once played a role in a historical period?

I am not about to make claims to knowledge I don't have but seeing as you're an expert on the matter, please explain the point of the other symbols being placed alongside the cross here in Poland.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: Mr Grunwald  Oct 18, 11, 17:44    #27
pawian:
So for you the Middle Ages continued till 16/17 century?

I was in character it's not my personal opinion, it's the PC
Foreigner4:
I am not about to make claims to knowledge I don't have but seeing as you're an expert on the matter, please explain the point of the other symbols being placed alongside the cross here in Poland.


http://commonwealth.pl/

If you click on this link you can get to know that those symbols have their right to be there. All those symbols have a connection with Poland

rybnik:
Doesn't the Polish Constitution call for seperation of Church and State? If so, then clearly the crucifix should go.

Seperation doesn't mean abolishing
It's a reason it's a common man sitting next to the crucifix and not a clergyman
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 21:57    #28
Mr Grunwald:
If you click on this link you can get to know that those symbols have their right to be there. All those symbols have a connection with Poland

I guess we'll agree to disagree on what constitutes a "right to be there."
While historically educational, nothing was overwhelmingly convincing in terms of the Islamic influence. I found that part to be a little too p.c. gift-wrapped to take seriously. I'll watch it tomorrow with fresh eyes and mind and see if it strikes a chord then.
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Oct 19, 11, 00:25    #29
Mr Grunwald:
Seperation doesn't mean abolishing

It's really a very simple concept. If the seperation of Church and State is to be respected all symbols of any religion should not be placed where the government's business takes place. This includes schools. Religion should cease to be taught in schools.
wielki panThreads: 3
Posts: 278
Joined: Jan 7, 11 ♂ 		 Oct 19, 11, 07:14    #30
pawian:
But elementary justice requires that it is accompanied by other religious symbols, equally good.


hmm Poland is 97% catholic... a 97% cross and a 3 % other symbol.... I think thats fair...

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