Discrimination between Lithuania and Poland

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Sep 18, 11, 23:27 #31

I live in Vilnius, but i know very few who understands polish. Nowadays people learn english as they need it to travel or use computers. As for russian, younger generation usually doesn't understand it. For example i know it well, but several years younger ones knows it in much smaller number.

Of course, it was Lithuanian lawmakers who started it. What did you expect? That Poles will take it silently? But Polish reaction is very mild anyway. Let me tell you: Lithuania still is treated with every respect by Polish authorities. They fear that if pushed too hard, you might turn to Russians and become a member of Russian Empire again.

LOL

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Sep 18, 11, 23:33 #32

Nowadays people learn english

Which is very good! I think it is just a sign of time that people needs to know this language, so they can communicate with the world.

And also about discrimination: we should not believe in everything media say and most importantly - media should stop spreading such unreliable information, because hatred would grow. Not every Polish nor Lithuanian person hate each other and we should start discovering our good sides, not only these bad ones.

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Sep 19, 11, 00:22 #33

I understand that younger people do not speak Polish, but these "middle-aged" do understand it (at least a bit of it, basic things). I try to speak some Lithuanian when I am in Lithuania (as I mentioned I do not speak Lithuanian well, only basics), but most of Polish people would not know even basics (the same goes with Lithuanian people who I meet in our stores, because people from Eastern Lithuania go shopping to shopping centres in my town). About Russian - I tried to speak it first time when I was in Lithuania and the reception of it was extremely bad (people were rude to me like I insulted them), plus my family told me it is better to use English if I am not a Russian person, or the best - Lithuanian. So all I wrote is based on what my family told me and my personal experience. I guess you live in Western Lithuania, right? Because all my experience was in the east.

You are a bit wrong. Old people in eastern Lithiuania know Polish better because this part had Polish as state language for some time. Also there are locals who speak Polish. But it doesn't go for middle age group. For them Russian was one of state languages and not Polish. It might be that some of them know basics if they are going to Poland from time to time. Also when you know some Russian you can understand a bit in Polish, both of them are slavic languages.

It might be that some people get rude if you start talking in Russian (it might ocure in coutryside), but it is not very spread. Many of middle age people know Russian well and they would answer if you asked for something.

I'm from Vilnius. My grandparents are from Vilnius reagion. So I know what is the situation here.

adnarThreads: - Posts: 22 Joined: Sep 18, 11 ♂	Sep 19, 11, 00:33 #34
Medis, thanks for clarifying this. This is why I like this forum - you can clarify something being in Lithuania, and I can clarify something being in Poland :) Have a great week ahead and I hope we will never hear about conflicts between Polish and Lithuanian people again.

hague1cmaeronThreads: 21 Posts: 1,652 Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂	Sep 19, 11, 00:40 #35
But Lithuania had history of its own before that and it kept its own identity in commonwealth. Its nobility couldn't wait to dump the Lithuanian language and start speaking Polish(:

piktoonisThreads: - Posts: 96 Joined: Apr 1, 11 ♂	Sep 19, 11, 01:03 #36
Its nobility couldn't wait to dump the Lithuanian language and start speaking Polish(: It is only because polish nobility had much more privileges in Poland than lithuanian nobility in GDL, so lithuanian nobility became "polish", to get those privileges. That's what greed does...

Des EssientesThreads: 11 Posts: 2,318 Joined: Feb 6, 10 ♂ [Suspended]	Sep 19, 11, 01:12 #37
Lithuanians' archaic language isolated them. When Lithuania ruled Ruthenia alone they had to put all their governing proclamations in Ruthenian anyway. The Lithuanian nobles adoption of the Polish language, a Slavic language like Ruthenian, made it easier for them to understand their subject populace and gave them a common tongue in which to converse with their Polish peers.

MedisThreads: - Posts: 26 Joined: Sep 18, 11 ♂	Sep 19, 11, 10:53 #38
Lithuanians' archaic language isolated them. It did not became isolated because it was archaic. Simply nobody knew how to write (at least in Lithuanian). Lithuanian nobles began to use Ruthenian scribes for documents and letters. But this did npt stop them from talking in Lithuania Lithuanian as spoken language started to be abandoned somewhere at the end of XVI century (if I'm not mistaken).

LwowskaKrakowThreads: 49 Posts: 504 Joined: Mar 9, 07 MEMBER ♀	Sep 19, 11, 11:01 #39
There is nothing like an archaic language especially when it is still spoken. I have heard of Ancient Greek, Ancient Hebrew/Arameic which were revived and became Modern Greek and Modern Hebrew but nothing like Ancient Lithuanian. What do you mean , Des Essientes? Lithuanians' archaic language isolated them

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Sep 19, 11, 11:05 #40

I have heard of Ancient Greek, Ancient Hebrew/Arameic which were revived and became Modern Greek and Modern Hebrew but

Ancient Greek were not revived.They are dead language.Greek continued to be spoken and gradually evolved to new Greek at about 14th century.Greek language is very stable it changes very slowly we are still able to read New testimony in original script of 2000 years ago but English almost need translation to understand Shakespeare because English has changed considerably in last centuries.

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Sep 19, 11, 11:37 #41

There is nothing like an archaic language especially when it is still spoken.

Excerpt from Wikipedia about Lithuanian language: "Lithuanian still retains many of the original features of the nominal morphology found in some ancient Indo-European languages like Sanskrit and Latin, and has therefore been the focus of much study in the area of Indo-European linguistics. Studies in the field of comparative linguistics have shown it to be the most conservative living Indo-European language."

LwowskaKrakowThreads: 49 Posts: 504 Joined: Mar 9, 07 MEMBER ♀	Sep 19, 11, 11:50 #42
Ah ok, I understand Medis, thank you for the info.Very interesting as i have American friends from Lithuanian descent, they speak lithuanian and are also gifted in many languages, no wonder why with Sanskrit and Latin as a sort of base.

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Sep 19, 11, 16:58 #43

Not every Polish nor Lithuanian person hate each other and we should start discovering our good sides, not only these bad ones.

It is not about people, its about governmental policy.

I'm from Vilnius. My grandparents are from Vilnius reagion. So I know what is the situation here.

Did they move there after 1945?

Have a great week ahead and I hope we will never hear about conflicts between Polish and Lithuanian people again.

Why? Do you want to ban news about Lithuania's government discriminatory policy?

here is nothing like an archaic language especially when it is still spoken.

Are a linguist ?No, I don;t think you are.

You accuse of Denial and deflection! Elaborate that.

I have given you examples of acts discriminating Poles. You said - eh, no, they are not discriminated against. Look at minorities in Poland and who they are discriminated.
I provided examples and proves that minorities in Poland are anything but discriminated against. You were quiet. Then I provided comparison in situation of Poles in Lithuania and Lithuanians in Poland made by a newspaper. All you said - eh, that newspaper is biased.
You like games eh>? go and play with yourself then !

One moment you state one thing, next time you oppose yourself. Something is definitely not good with you :

I think that your English is not up the task then or maybe there is something not right with you, specifically with your brain.

As I remember bigger part of GDL was made up of lands where Ruthenian language was spoken. Also official languages of GDL was Ruthenian and Latin, Polish became official only in 1697

I thought you are talking about something else. Remember though that GDL had three cores around which grew modern GDL identity, Ruthenian, Polish and Lithuanian, not only one.

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Edited by: Medis Sep 19, 11, 18:02 #44

Ironside

It is not about people, its about governmental policy.

We live in democratic countries - government is elected by the people. So it is about the people

Did they move there after 1945?

What a typical question :)
No, they were locals. My grandfather was a teacher in Vilnius region before WWII.
He was even put to jail by Polish authorities for showing inappropriate map to pupils :) The map showed Vilnius as a part of Lithuania.

I have given you examples of acts discriminating Poles.

If there were any facts of discrimination then there would be trials. But there are no. Why? Because there is no discrimination. I would agree to statement that Polish minority asks for more rights (at least some politicians). But that is not the same as discrimination.

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Sep 19, 11, 18:25 #45

I provided examples and proves that minorities in Poland are anything but discriminated against. You were quiet. Then I provided comparison in situation of Poles in Lithuania and Lithuanians in Poland made by a newspaper. All you said - eh, that newspaper is biased.

That newspaper likes to publish similar articles. If i remember right, they published article a year ago (when all that discrimination mumbo-jumbo started) which directly insults Lithuania. It was fined, but that's all, because we live in democratic state that has free press adopted.

You like games eh>? go and play with yourself then !

Err... i don't get it.

I think that your English is not up the task then or maybe there is something not right with you, specifically with your brain.

Well, my english is far from perfect, but i can understand when you throw insults left and right. Maybe you should go on vacation? :D

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Sep 19, 11, 18:28 #46

He was even put to jail by Polish authorities for showing inappropriate map to pupils :) The map showed Vilnius as a part of Lithuania.

and rightly so!warmonger !

If there were any facts of discrimination then there would be trials.

Really ? I'm sure that with such logic you would say that Jews were not persecuted in Hitler's Germany. Such was the law then, democratic law.
Instead of dwelling on right interpretation of the word discrimination, you would better admit that Poles are refused their rights(EU)and because you have democratic government your people should implement those rights and pronto.

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Sep 19, 11, 19:00 #47

Ironside

and rightly so!warmonger !

I wouldn't say it was rightly to put him to prison. However those were the days and it doesn't surprise.

Really ? I'm sure that with such logic you would say that Jews were not persecuted in Hitler's Germany. Such was the law then, democratic law.
Instead of dwelling on right interpretation of the word discrimination, you would better admit that Poles are refused their rights(EU)and because you have democratic government your people should implement those rights and pronto.

No, they aren't refused of their rights. As I said previously, if there would be any violations of human rights, Lithuanian or EU law then there would be trials. In Lithuania we have Polish politicians who would not hesitate to escalate any discrimination. But it doesn't happen. Why? Because there is no discrimination. :) Where do you see it? If road signs or town names are written in state language it doesn't mean any discrimination.

Your comparison with Nazi Germany is awkward. Do you really believe what you write?

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Sep 19, 11, 19:33 #48

f i remember right, they published article a year ago (when all that discrimination mumbo-jumbo started)

No, they aren't refused of their rights.

Linguistic discrimination is discrimination based on native language, usually in the language policy especially in education of a state that has one or several linguistic minorities.
Critics denounce linguistic discrimination as a violation of linguistic rights. Discrimination against minority language is an aspect of linguistic imperialism.
You are part of the EU. You should comply with the EU law. If you think that you know better, you should leave the EU.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Sep 19, 11, 19:57 #49
I think that Lithuanian minority in Poland should enjoy the same rights like Polish minority in Lithuania. It means that some rights of Polish minority in Poland should be revoked.

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Sep 19, 11, 20:30 #50

Linguistic discrimination is discrimination based on native language, usually in the language policy especially in education of a state that has one or several linguistic minorities.
Critics denounce linguistic discrimination as a violation of linguistic rights. Discrimination against minority language is an aspect of linguistic imperialism.
You are part of the EU. You should comply with the EU law. If you think that you know better, you should leave the EU

And how Poles in Lithuania are linguistically discriminated? If it is because of signs then why nobody is putting up the question in EU? Why there are no trials? Do you think that Poles in Lithuania are dumb enough for that? They have politicians who could initiate it. But somehow everything ends in nothing...

If there is a need of additional rights for Poles and they will keep the pressure for politicians then they will reach their goals. Though it will require some time. If its only some political games then everything will cool down in time... Time will show.

I think that Lithuanian minority in Poland should enjoy the same rights like Polish minority in Lithuania.
It means that some rights of Polish minority in Poland should be revoked.

They are already revoking some rights themselves. Lithuanian community are thinking to remove bilingual signs. The decision should be reached in November. Do you know why they want to do that?

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