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The Economist: time to rethink old notions about Poland

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posts: 67

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 06:41 #1
OUTSIDERS often have fixed ideas of Poland: a big, poor country with shambolic governments, dreadful roads and eccentric habits. Old stereotypes die hard, but the facts paint an increasingly different picture. By the grim standards of recent centuries, Poland has never been more secure, richer or better-run. A few good comments from the known financial magazine.

♀ [Suspended]

Edited by: Bzibzioh Jan 30, 10, 07:06 #2

"A big symbolic and practical change is that citizens can increasingly use a simple signed declaration (an oswiadczenia) instead of a costly, time-consuming notarised one (a zaswiadczenia) in their dealings with the state. “We assume that citizens are telling the truth unless there is evidence to the contrary. In the past, the reverse applied,” says Mr Rostowski. Sceptical Poles, scarred by their dealings with suspicious, nit-picking bureaucrats, may take some convincing of this."

Thank G-d for that; insane amount of zaświadczenia required everywhere was maddening.

There is a light in the tunnel. I'm doing my happy dance! ooo

♂

Jan 30, 10, 15:02 #3

Changes should also be visible and not just some stats loosely flung around. About the horse thing, there is still a red circle roadsign with a horse in the middle at the end of my road but a horse hasn't come up in over 5 years ;) :)

As for the rest of the article, some good points were made, especially with regards to GDP. The Polish government needs to better acknowledge the impact that substantial inward investment had.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 15:17 #4
z_darius: A few good comments from the known financial magazine. Yeah...Economist and Stratfor....oh well...

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 15:23 #5
Bratwurst Boy: Yeah...Economist and Stratfor....oh well... I didn't understand what you were trying to say, could you expand upon it, please?

frdThreads: 8 Posts: 1,956 Joined: Feb 3, 09 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 15:34 #6
It's hard to stand some of the idiocy presented in several Law and Order supporters comments under that article...

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 15:46 #7
"OUTSIDERS often have fixed ideas of Poland: a big, poor country with shambolic governments, dreadful roads and eccentric habits..." LOL, some of us disagree thaT a lot has changed! OK maybe its not so poor anymore but the rest fits.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 21:22 #8
The thing is, it is many Poles themselves that are slow to rethink old notions. As Juche said, when you have a shambolic government and perilous roads, why the need for a rethink? ;) ;) It still is the case :(

♂

Jan 30, 10, 21:27 #9

Seanus:

The thing is, it is many Poles themselves that are slow to rethink old notions. As Juche said, when you have a shambolic government and perilous roads, why the need for a rethink? ;) ;) It still is the case :(

Can you imagine what Poland would be capable of economically if the infrastructure was in place to provide easy movement in the country? It's a shame that contracts here are managed by the autistic kids in the back room.

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 21:30 #10
The Economist is owned and operated by the Rothschild family...This article may indicate that the Polish economy is doing well enough for the Khazars to start sniffing around again to see what they can take from it.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 21:42 #11
Yes, but what control do they have over the banking sector here? I guess Poland is one of those many countries where they have some kind of stake in.

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Edited by: joepilsudski Jan 30, 10, 21:49 #12

Seanus:

Yes, but what control do they have over the banking sector here? I guess Poland is one of those many countries where they have some kind of stake in.

Now, you ask a very important question here...You have Allianz Bank which opened offices in Poland over the past few years...This is part of the Rothschild banking and insurance network...Some serious research would need to be done here.

Also, as to the Economist article please check out this thread, concerning the prospective Presidential candidate Sikorski and his wife:

http://www.polishforums.com/news-politics-4/polands-jewish-first-lady- 41747/

♂

Edited by: Seanus Jan 30, 10, 22:43 #13

Without looking at the link, I know that his wife is American. He was instrumental in signing the shield along with that snake, Condo Rice. What a piece of work she was! I'll give it a look later, Joe.

I wonder to what extent they could use Poland. David Rockefeller openly admitted to using the might of America to serve his agenda.

As for old notions about Poland, stereotypes sometimes never disappear.

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 22:51 #14
Since a great percentage of Poles work in countried affected by crisis,the latter affects Poles as well.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Jan 31, 10, 00:18 #15
The photo which illustrates the article Not bad. I also take nice pics of the kind. But, my peasant farmer is more handsome than the Economist`s one.

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 00:24 #16
Pawian - I assure you that both of these gentlemen are proud owners of the cars or tractors. The point is - what is wrong if you use a horse? It's nice looking and eco-friendly.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 00:50 #17
enkidu: what is wrong if you use a horse? It's nice looking and eco-friendly. Exactly. When you use the horse power instead of a tractor in the field, the grass is less damaged. And it is fertilised at the same time.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 11:32 #18
z_darius: The Economist: time to rethink old notions about Poland Pro-PO propaganda.

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Jan 31, 10, 13:11 #19

Grzegorz_:

Pro-PO propaganda.

I am surprised it was you who said it but it was going to be said eventually.

I think it is weird that all criticisms of Poland on this site are regarded as "Fact" or "The way it is" and all positive feed back is regarded as ''propaganda''.

The truth is they are both propaganda and both "true" .

So as for my "truth" :) Poland has done well during the 'world credit crunch' and has not fallen in to recession.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 13:23 #20
I second that, Seanny. There are too many blanket assertions on this site and it comes through a lack of questioning and too much ego. There is always GUS to back up stats, that is their raison d'etre after all.

♂

Jan 31, 10, 14:09 #21

I would have never considered moving from Norway to Poland if I didn't think that Poland could give me the basic needs my family would need in order to live a happy and fulfulling life, around "my area", Katowice. Just look at the highways recently built (The A4). It connects me with my wifes family in Wroclaw and Zgorzelec, making it easier to visit them. The new malls being built will make it nice and interesting to go shopping. (They are much bigger than the ones here in Norway, and the selection is just as good, if not better, especially the deli...pierogies, kielbasas..). Where there was boring and no private companies, there are now electronic stores, real estate agents, banks and private schools. Poland is in the average or just above in all the economic rankings.

I can get everything I have in Norway, in Poland. And it will be a little exciting starting a "new life", getting to know new neighbours, new colleagues at work and seeing a different landscape every day. And what better place to do it, in a country that improves day by day, month by month, year by year? Actually seeing new buildings popping up, improved roads, new factories, new companies, improvement of excisting infrastructure.

In 10-20 years Poland will become a much more attractive place for europeans to settle. Instead of setting up shop in England or France, Poland will be just as attractive, not only for the financial opportunities but also geographical. Poland is smack in the middle, bordering to Germany on one side, and another powerhouse, Russia on the other. Cheaper labour, building costs and more willingness from the government to help foreign companies to set up shop will attrackt hundreds, even thousands of businesses in the next 10 to 20 years.

And I want to be a part of that, seeing that happen right in front of my eyes. I have friends that live in Poland, and they tell me all the time about these everyday improvements, and the article in the Economist just proves that what they are saying is true.

Dariusz

♂

Jan 31, 10, 14:34 #22

DariuszTelka:

And I want to be a part of that, seeing that happen right in front of my eyes. I have friends that live in Poland, and they tell me all the time about these everyday improvements, and the article in the Economist just proves that what they are saying is true.

While I agree with you on growth in Poland (that's one of the reason I'm setting up shop here), there is a very worrying trend of consumer debt piling up. I'm kind of worried about further growth when interest rates go up. Poland is attractive because of low wages and a weak zloty. I think the last 5 years were easy, I'd keep my eye out on the zloty gaining value and interest rates going up, as those two factors could very easily stop Poland in its tracks for a long while. Lets hope the infrastructure is in place by that time for Poland to be viable on it's own merits.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 15:32 #23
Convex is right. This is a very real situation. Consumer debt has to be rife, there can be no other way unless all I've heard has been lies. It's certainly the case with Poles in the UK who are being chased up. Many get slack abroad and try to abscond. The math in Poland just doesn't add up.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 15:42 #24
SeanBM: I am surprised it was you who said it Why ? The article is full of nonsense, either that is pro-PO (especially pro Sikorski) propaganda or people who wrote that text are simply fools.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 15:59 #25
Well, it's one step closer to transparency, Greg. Right or wrong, at least it will create discussion as I find that many aren't aware of what goes on in the Sejm. Many just want their next cabbage cigar or vodka shake ;) ;0

Think Twice

Jan 31, 10, 16:14 #26

SeanBM:

So as for my "truth" :) Poland has done well during the 'world credit crunch' and has not fallen in to recession

Seanus:

I second that,

Although for some, like you guys, the situation had none or little effect, for many other ORDINARY Polish people the reality was and is far from rosey. Thats more like the truth.

AS ALWAYS THE WORKING CLASS SUFFERS SO THE BIG BOYS CAN STILL HAVE THEIR OUNCE OF STEAK.

POWER TO THE COMMON PEOPLE.

♂

Jan 31, 10, 16:25 #27

Working class? Eh, check your economics there. The middle class often bear the brunt of the top brass creaming off the profits. The working class in Poland, esp farmers, are more concerned with adjusting to a competitive EU market than nursing any wounds from the crisis.

Like yourself, though, I am also for the farmers getting a better deal. I just don't like to see such a huge gap between farmers within the EU. Go to Scottish farms and you will see 2 or 3 cars, big houses and noticeable wealth. I can't say the same here but they produce some excellent products.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Edited by: convex Jan 31, 10, 16:30 #28
Seanus: I am also for the farmers getting a better deal The actual farmers that have productive farms are doing pretty good. The other big chunk of people that call themselves farmers because they own land and can't find work (and are therefore classified as farmers and aren't included in the unemployment statistics..)...no sympathy. They're country welfare leeches...

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Jan 31, 10, 16:32 #29

Grzegorz_:

Why ?

I just thought it would be someone else, that's all.

Think Twice:

AS ALWAYS THE WORKING CLASS SUFFERS SO THE BIG BOYS CAN STILL HAVE THEIR OUNCE OF STEAK.

That is complete rubbish, I want more than an ounce of steak and I don't mind if it comes directly from the working class themselves, it is all they are good for after all.
If you can not read what I have written, why bother commenting?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 16:37 #30
Convex, I wouldn't be so sure about that. There are many farming families that have struggled through the generations, many. Just look at Rostocza and other such areas. When making comments, relativity should almost always play a part and "doing good" here is not doing good by Scottish standards.

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