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EU vs Russia war - who would win?


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CrowThreads: 365
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Edited by: Crow  Apr 5, 08, 02:19    #541
Kilkline:
Thats beautiful. What colour is the sky in your world?

actualy, i was inspired with song of Loreena Mc Keenitt - Night Ride Across The Caucasus

plus nice white wine



MrBubblesThreads: 13
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 Apr 5, 08, 07:01    #542
Bratwurst Boy:
Would the US like russian bases in...say...Mexico and Canada???


Exactly. Imagine if Russia tried installing nuclear missiles in say, Cuba. Actually, they did and the Americans shat themselves.


F15guyThreads: 1
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 Apr 5, 08, 09:32    #543
Mr. Bubbles: The Americans shat themselves.


No, they didn't shat themselves. They nearly shot their missiles off at Russia. October 18-29, 1962 was the closest the world ever came to nuclear war.

It wasn't called the Cuban Missile Crisis for nothing.


Wroclaw Boy  Apr 5, 08, 10:59    #544
Personally I cant wait for the US to be relegated to second place in terms of world power. Bush has sealed your fate.

In the words of Elias from the film Platoon "weve been kicking everybody's asses for so long I figure its time we got ours kicked"


F15guyThreads: 1
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Edited by: F15guy  Apr 5, 08, 17:14    #545
WroclawBoy: Personally I cant wait for the US to be relegated to second place in terms of world power.


Overall, the US has been pretty benevolent compared to Rome, the Ottoman Empire, Nazi Germany, the USSR, etc. I personally would like to see the US pull completely out of Europe. Let you pay the full price of your defense from the next petty dictator who threatens you. Thousands of Bosnians paid the price for Europe's inaction. Generally, the EU sits on its ass (or do you prefer arse?) until it gets so bad, they call for US help.

I'll get the French credit. They have not hesitated to react when their citizens are in danger by an African dictator.

You may really hate the next number #1, particuliarly if it's a new Russian threat. Or, perhaps China.


KilklineThreads: 3
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 Apr 5, 08, 17:42    #546
F15guy:
Overall, the US has been pretty benevolent compared to Rome, the Ottoman Empire, Nazi Germany, the USSR, etc. I personally would like to see the US pull completely out of Europe. Let you pay the full price of your defense from the next petty dictator who threatens you. Thousands of Bosnians paid the price for Europe's inaction. Generally, the EU sits on its ass (or do you prefer arse?) until it gets so bad, they call for US help.

I'll get the French credit. They have not hesitated to react when their citizens are in danger by an African dictator.

You may really hate the next number #1, particuliarly if it's a new Russian threat. Or, perhaps China.



It pains me to say it but I agree with you. With the exception of the UK and France European countries still dont know what to use their military for. Although if you listen to French people they'd have you believe they never use force in a unilateral way as they choose to ignore destroying the Liberian airforce, testing nuclear weapons in the south Pacific or blowing up a Greenpeace ship.


Ali195Threads: -
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 Aug 29, 08, 11:42    #547
The problem with Russia is its military infratructure.
Since 2000 they've gained massive amounts of hard currency (third largest reserves in the world) from rising oil/gas prices but that doesnt necessarily translate into a fully modern military.

Since the late 80's USA and Europe has been upgrading its military infratructure and with of end of Soviet Union in 1991, has left alot of breathing room for budgets.

Example: 1986 USA wanted a new Stealth jet fighter (end result F-22 Raptor). 1991 the contact was awared to Lockheed Martin. 1994 had its maiden flight. 2004 officially entered service.

Now compare that with Russia's PAK-FA stealth fighter, were talking 2020 before that thing is even close to entering service. The cost & time for research/development of military equipment is very large indeed and Europe/USA has used the 'spare' time since 1991 to upgrade.

Russia is 20 year behind USA and majoy EU countries in that sense.

Britain has no nuclear bases at-all but four submarines equipped with the latest Trident nuclear missile's. These sub are designed to be untraceable at all times so if a country does devastate/attack then we still simply nuke them to hell & back.

EU wouldnt stand a chance stopping a 'first strike' all out nuclear attack but thats not to say we cant send it straight back. France also operates a very similar system thus we patrol the waters together to cover a wide area.

It will take many many decades before Russia can be called a super power as money takes time to translate into finished military programs, especially brand new stealth tech.

Russia would never nuke EU as we buy their gas/oil but if ever a senario occurred we would win (but at a massive personal/financial cost).

Eastern Europe would act as a buffer zone for the big three EU couries (Germany, France And Great Britain) to prepare.

Quite simply Russia has too much money & investments in Europe to consider such a war but within the next 25 years a predict a large shift in power, i,e an Asian Nato with Russia, China, India vs EU/USA. This will depend on how we all coop with natural resources such as gas,oil.

Its predicted the Falklands has 25 billions worth of Oil ($50 billion) on the sea bed but Argentina wont let Britain place a refining plant on the land. That is a perfect example of possible wars due to natural resources.


celinskiThreads: 83
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 Aug 29, 08, 11:58    #548
Europe Chose Next Aim for Russia’s Attack
In the West, they are clear about the next aim of Moscow – it is Ukrainian Crimea, of course. Britain's Foreign Secretary David Miliband rushed to Kiev to warn Ukrainian leadership to avoid giving any pretext to Moscow for the military assault. Meanwhile in Ukraine, the military clashes in Georgia triggered another political crisis that may break the ruling coalition.
http://www.kommersant.com/p1017239/r_500/Ukraine_defense/


Ali195Threads: -
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 Aug 30, 08, 08:17    #549
The future of EU is creating more programs like the Eurofighter Typhoon, no one country funding new military programs but instead every EU country giving a proportionate share & manufacturing responsibilities.
It will also create jobs.

Imagine if every EU country had the Typhoon (2004), Challanger 2 tank (1998) & F-35 (2015?)! Any country or superpower would think twice about taking on the EU. Easier said than done but countries like UK need to realise its not a power house and without nukes (see previous post) its just a small island thats been bankrupted by two world wars.


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Aug 30, 08, 09:14    #550
Leopard? Eurocopter???

An EU-Army could compare with the best!


SeanusThreads: 22
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 Aug 30, 08, 09:51    #551
In the words of the native Americans BB, HOW??


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 30, 08, 11:52    #552
High-Tech Seanus!

High tech and the defense budgets of many countries!

Lot's of human capital too...
I don't mean necessarily the number of the available recruits but centuries of experience in warfare, the smartest developer, strategists and tacticians and not at least every nationality would bring in something special, something what makes all together stronger!


SeanusThreads: 22
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 Aug 30, 08, 12:06    #553
The different countries would bicker about who was to do what. There would be a lack of coordination. The objectives would have to be crystal clear for us to stand a chance


BabinichThreads: 1
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 Aug 30, 08, 12:08    #554
F15guy:

October 18-29, 1962 was the closest the world ever came to nuclear war.


I'd bet Zbigniew Brzezinski would differ with you :')


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 30, 08, 12:48    #555
Seanus:


The different countries would bicker about who was to do what. There would be a lack of coordination. The objectives would have to be crystal clear for us to stand a chance


Sure they will do!
Show me one experiment which worked from the start...even when one is rolling already bickering never stops (EU), that doesn't hinder the experiment to be hugely successful.
Before Germany was unified it was a rug of bickering little duchies and statelets who fighted and intrigued between themselves endlessly...look what we made out of this.

It's a human thing...bickering is everwhere and it will never stop, fact! But that is no reason why an EU-army shouldn't work.

The moment the positions are manned with the most able, the most skilled soldiers regardless the nationality it should work!


SeanusThreads: 22
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 Aug 30, 08, 12:53    #556
Aha, and u assume that all the soldiers would be able to speak English?


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 30, 08, 12:56    #557
I don't think it is necessary for every soldier to speak english, not for those who never plan to get out of their unit.

But for every officer from a certain level upwards it will be an obligation.
And of course the higher up the better it would be if you are at least bi-lingual (which favors the non-english european natives abit).
The official languages of the EU are english, french and german...and somehow it works! :)

Just look over the US and how they started out.
It wasn't all Americans at once, they had to find together coming from all kinds of national backgrounds....and it worked!
(I believe they are still bickering now and then)


SeanusThreads: 22
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 Aug 30, 08, 13:13    #558
U have such grandiose notions, like many European bureaucrats BB. The practicalities would be vastly different to what u envisage. There's no real need for a European Army, just more assurances that we act collectively when we need to, assigning our own national troops to serve.


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 30, 08, 13:29    #559
Seanus:

U have such grandiose notions, like many European bureaucrats BB. The practicalities would be vastly different to what u envisage.


Will you believe that the founders of the European Union had the same unbelieving, mockery and ridicule to endure?

And what is an army against the project of the EU...when the beaureaucrats already thrive with this...:)

Seanus:

There's no real need for a European Army, just more assurances that we act collectively when we need to, assigning our own national troops to serve.


Yes, when Brits or Poles decide to help out the US in Iraq or when the Germans decide to help out in Afghanistan...but what about european matters?
What if there comes a time where the world will regroup in new power blocks?
Europe needs to be one of those or it will be trampled upon....

When Europe is attacked it would be to our advantage if we already have a staff, head quarter, all the blood lines needed to be an effective army, in place, not watching on like a deer caught in the headlights, telephoning wildly around...

A core is already build, quite small now but it grows: Euro Corps

Euro Corps Insignia

URL

URL

...Eurocorps is a multinational army corps within the framework of European Union and NATO common defence initiatives. Headquartered in Strasbourg, France, the force was established in 1992 and declared operational in 1995, though it draws from European defence initiatives as far back as the 1960s.[1]

Six countries participate in Eurocorps as "framework nations": France, Germany, Belgium (from 1993), Spain (from 1994), Luxembourg (from 1996)[2] and Poland (from 2008). A further seven countries have pledged troops or contribute operational staff: Austria, Turkey, Greece, the United Kingdom, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands. Most of these countries are members of the EU (with the exception of Turkey) and of NATO (with the exception of Finland and Austria).

Eurocorps comprises approximately 1,000 soldiers stationed in Strasbourg and up to 60,000 troops pledged for deployment in EU or NATO rapid-response missions.[3] The nucleus of the force is the Franco-German Brigade established in 1987...



SeanBMThreads: 41
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Edited by: SeanBM  Aug 30, 08, 13:35    #560
One of the things I dislike most about the E.U. is that they want Ireland to officially give up her neutrality.
I remember years ago thinking that the E.U. reminded me of rumplestiltskin, spinning us gold but wanting our first born.
I would not wish Irish men and women to be forced to fight for someone else.
Of course it would help if Ireland was actually neutral....


American fighter jets would refuel in Ireland and go off to Iraq and when our previous leader was asked " what about Ireland's neutrality?" our leader replied "We still are neutral, Saddam Husajn can fly in here and refuel any time he wishes"
I actually do not know if that last statement is true or not, I have been trying to search for it, any way....


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 30, 08, 13:39    #561
SeanBM:

I would not wish Irish men and women to be forced to fight for someone else.
Of course it would help if Ireland was actually neutral...


Who is "someone else"?
Do you think if France, Germany, GB or Poland are in need it is of no interest to Ireland?

But then...I think an EU-force could get over it if the Irish say NO....again...


SeanBMThreads: 41
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 Aug 30, 08, 13:43    #562
Bratwurst Boy:

But then...I think an EU-force could get over it if the Irish say NO....again...

I hope you can too...


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Aug 30, 08, 13:44    #563
SeanBM:

I hope you can too...


I try...:)


SeanBMThreads: 41
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Edited by: SeanBM  Aug 30, 08, 13:50    #564
Bratwurst Boy:

I try...:)

;)

What I am trying to say is I have no problems with the Russians and in war people get killed.
I do see a big difference between attacking and defending.
I would hate to see Ireland fighting over gas, for example and we all know wars have been over less.
I also imagine that like the Second world war many Irish would fight in such a war but out of choice.


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Aug 30, 08, 14:04    #565
I would hate to see an EU-army abused for agressive politics too....


shopgirlThreads: 7
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 Aug 30, 08, 14:07    #566
Da bist du! Worrying over an EU army, while i am under attack from THOR!

naughty bratski! :)


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Aug 30, 08, 14:09    #567
ack...coming! :)


SeanBMThreads: 41
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 Aug 30, 08, 14:11    #568
Bratwurst Boy:

I would hate to see an EU-army abused for agressive politics too....

Yeah fair enough. We should really have a case scenario. Would it be the gas line or a pre emptive strike in "defence" or a land dispute, the list is really endless but I would like for Ireland to view the facts for her self no Weapons of Mass Distraction spoof.
I know that in war hesitation is harmful but so is rushing in like a bull.


Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 30, 08, 14:14    #569
Securing that what belongs to the EU should be the priority, nothing else!

No pre-emptive strikes, no land disputes....it's actually a good thing that the membership of the EU requires such high measures. To make sure any heavy conflicts with neighbours are closed already BEFORE they get in!
So our borders are not disputed...the same with gas pipelines...as long as never endangers the energy transport there is no activity needed and so on...

That's also a reason I despise such countries like Georgia who just want into EU and NATO to be able to wield a heavier baton in their bickering with their neighbours...
I would HATE to see the Euro Corps manipulated by them!


shopgirlThreads: 7
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 Aug 30, 08, 14:19    #570
The EU should work for independence from Russian oil and cut the cord from the Bear!
Where can the EU tap into wave power or wind power?

An EU confrontation with Russia would not be a good scenario. Russia does not fight fair, but I don't think she wants to fight all of Europe either!



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