EU vs Russia war - who would win?

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Aug 30, 08, 14:21 #571

Bratwurst Boy:

Securing that what belongs to the EU should be the priority, nothing else!

Do you think that it is how it would really work? Don't get me wrong, I think you have a point but you know yourself, once such power is available people want more and more, then the question would be what belongs to the E.U. out side of her borders, you know what I mean? Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,049 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Edited by: Babinich Aug 30, 08, 14:22 #572
Bratwurst Boy: No pre-emptive strikes In all the possible scenarios in which one is threatened by a belligerent either overtly or covertly?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 08, 14:25 #573

SeanBM:

Do you think that it is how it would really work? Don't get me wrong, I think you have a point but you know yourself, once such power is available people want more and more, then the question would be what belongs to the E.U. out side of her borders, you know what I mean? Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I absolutely agree!
That was the way in our history and so it would probably happen again BUT this time it's not only ONE nation but many...

I can't believe in a scenario where the whole staff of the EU-army get's belligerent and aggressive...at least not till the majority of us is still democratic...

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Edited by: SeanBM Aug 30, 08, 14:31 #574

Bratwurst Boy:

at least not till the majority of us is still democratic...

Ah yes democracy our beautiful mistress.
Didn't the Romans have the same thing, except in war when a ceasar would have complete control? and did not the last ceasar keep that control?
It could also be (and probably is all the time) that a pre-emptive strike would be the best root, catch "them" (I'm not saying Russians) off guard, it is a slippery slope and it all seems to lead down, maybe not in our life time but...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 08, 14:38 #575
Well....the Nato worked that way for 50 years now, do you think it's only the US keeping us Europeans from going all Nazi??? And actually I don't see Russia as our next-main-problem-in-the-making but China! No pre-emptive strikes, period!

shopgirlThreads: 7 Posts: 1,446 Joined: Apr 6, 07 ♀	Aug 30, 08, 14:39 #576
SeanBM: I think you have a point but you know yourself, once such power is available people want more and more, then the question would be what belongs to the E.U. out side of her borders I don't picture an EU army drunk with power, frothing at the mouth, ready to take over the world......

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Edited by: SeanBM Aug 30, 08, 14:48 #577

Bratwurst Boy:

And actually I don't see Russia as our next-main-problem-in-the-making

Me too, bit to close for my liking.
I am trying to think of the E.U's biggest possible threat and only one thing springs to mind, given there history of course and that is the E.U. herself.
I do not want to mislead, I am pro E.U. I just do not want an E.U. army that will take my children to a war (I don't have children but). The E.U. is still in the making and I would prefer it not to go military.

shopgirl:

I don't picture an EU army drunk with power, frothing at the mouth, ready to take over the world......

you left out one word I don't picture an EU army drunk with power, frothing at the mouth, ready to take over the world again, admittedly it is the first time for us all to be one but our bloody pasts show a very different story, no?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 16:57 #578
Where do u c the perceived threat coming from BB? This is not D&D, this is reality

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 08, 17:25 #579
China will get immensely powerful, not only economically! There are no democratic structures whatsoever....I don't see why they should not want to make their power felt when it suits them.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 17:29 #580
What would incite them to act tho? That is what I am asking. China IS immensely powerful, and what?? U lose sleep over this? I don't

shopgirlThreads: 7 Posts: 1,446 Joined: Apr 6, 07 ♀	Aug 30, 08, 17:33 #581
China behaves a lot like Russia; suppressed media, control of everything, no tolerance for those who disagree with the state... A country that does not care for its own citizens cannot be expected to care about other countries.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 08, 17:43 #582

Seanus:

What would incite them to act tho? That is what I am asking.

China IS immensely powerful, and what?? U lose sleep over this? I don't

It's in the making....
But one with eyes open can see it already. Take China in Africa for example:

URL

China's empire building in Africa means trouble for West

The global lines and influence spheres are drawn anew with China pushing in and the West out....
No need to pacify indignant moralists at home...supporting the killers in Darfur or weapons for Mugabe are no problem! And that's just a start...

URL

China 'is fuelling war in Darfur'

URL

Chinese ship carries arms cargo to Mugabe regime

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 17:45 #583
Believe what u will, they are merely increasing influence in certain spheres, not gearing up for war.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 17:48 #584
Seanus: Believe what u will, they are merely increasing influence in certain spheres, not gearing up for war. No reason to NOT use their army when they want to....

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 17:53 #585
I assume u have heard of bombs BB. Where do u imagine Chinese troops being deployed?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 08, 17:57 #586

Seanus:

I assume u have heard of bombs BB.
Where do u imagine Chinese troops being deployed?

Do I have a crystal ball???
I'm just being logical here...China is an empire in the making, they will push and shove the "oldies" were they can and I can for the life of me not imagine why they shouldn't use their army too if the West one day makes a stand and draws a line - till here but no further!

It will be an empire with more canon fodder than anybody else and no need to explain anything to them...
Even bombs won't scare them...just try to use them, they will barely feel it..more than enough people left over but a retaliation would be devastating to the West!

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Aug 30, 08, 18:03 #587

Please be specific. So, they have an empire which they can revel in, good for them. U seem to believe the hype of the West, BB. Please give me an instance of China issuing a real and credible threat to world peace and security.

It's the same as the Iranian issue, all hype and spin. Bored people conjuring up scenarios to provoke and antagonise.

China is growing because it wants to be respected internationally. Is there any shame in that?

shopgirlThreads: 7 Posts: 1,446 Joined: Apr 6, 07 ♀	Aug 30, 08, 18:06 #588
Seanus: hina is growing because it wants to be respected internationally. Is there any shame in that? You are completely ignoring the character of the government! Pull your head outta the sand sheep!

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 08, 18:10 #589

Seanus:

China is growing because it wants to be respected internationally. Is there any shame in that?

I doubt it grows because it wants our respect...it could to other things to do this, respecting human rights for one.

What you don't get is the China of today will change drastically in the next 10/20 years, it will become economically and technological on par with the West...just think about an endless country with endless peoples with the biggest modern army this planet has ever seen, without any democratic responsibilities whatsoever already shown to make policy without any scruples if it suits them at home and on foreign soil (Darfur)....

Sleep well Seanus!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 18:17 #590
China would be obliterated b4 it got to that demonic stage. Seriously folks, u blow things way out of proportion. I hate the inhumanity and lack of human rights shown by China, but were they to be such a threat, the world would be taking more action against them. If China is such a rogue state, why did it get to host the Olympics?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 08, 18:26 #591

Seanus:

China would be obliterated b4 it got to that demonic stage.

Just a question Seanus:
How do you "obliterate" such a huge country like China? How many nukes do you think it would need???
I fear China would survive but the West wouldn't!

Seanus:

If China is such a rogue state, why did it get to host the Olympics?

Firstly it is still far from an Empire and second the IOC said they got the games to further human rights and openness (but I think they had only the huge asian market in mind)...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 18:30 #592
Not even half of the Russian stockpile. I was also using it metaphorically for meaning crippled. Further human rights and openness, that's a laugh. They don't have such a thing as the European Convention of Human Rights.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 18:32 #593
Seanus: Further human rights and openness, that's a laugh. Of course!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 08, 19:20 #594
So, BB, u reckon China would defeat the EU?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 08, 20:01 #595
Seanus: So, BB, u reckon China would defeat the EU? An EU with a skilled, highly modern army supported by nearly a whole continent would be a good deterrent and at least a warning not to f*uck with! The EU as it is now...just a good laugh (for the chinese that is).

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Aug 31, 08, 07:20 #596

Seanus:

So, BB, u reckon China would defeat the EU?

I reckon if the Chinese just ran at us they would win, ha ha ha....

Bratwurst Boy:

An EU with a skilled, highly modern army supported by nearly a whole continent would be a good deterrent and at least a warning not to f*uck with!

Listen to yourself, will you.
So you would feel "safer" with a militant E.U.. It is a false sence of security.
I do agree that we (E.U.) should co-operate but setting up this kind of Military strong arming is not what I have in mind.
Should we start another arms race, heaven forbid.
I think I understand your point BB, that in the land of the giants (America, Russia, China, India)we should have some security but these things very often escalate, we build "our" army so they have to build theirs etc.... There is no end to it.
I would prefer our money to be spent on other things.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 31, 08, 07:26 #597
I never thought of a "militant" EU.... SeanBM: I think I understand your point BB, that in the land of the giants (America, Russia, China, India)we should have some security... What is your alternative?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Aug 31, 08, 07:33 #598
Perhaps I misunderstood, it sounded militant. I mean skill and modern army, just sounds like guys with gadgets who are trained to kill. Would you have conscription into the army for all E.U, males BB? We could have a peace bomb?.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 31, 08, 07:40 #599
SeanBM: Would you have conscription into the army for all E.U, males BB? Nope...the modern armies become more high tech all the time. Fewer but more educated, more specialized professionals are needed - I'm against a conscription army... SeanBM: We could have a peace bomb? The ultimate weapon! :)

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Aug 31, 08, 07:51 #600

Bratwurst Boy:

What is your alternative?

Good question, I do not have one yet but there must be several.

Bratwurst Boy:

the modern armies get more high tech all the time.

Boys and their toys...

Bratwurst Boy:

Fewer but more educated,

Why would an educated person want to train to die or kill?

"I'd like to leave the army, it's dangerous"
I am aware that some armies give good education to those who other wise would not be able to afford it.

Bratwurst Boy:

more specialized professionals are needed

Ok, so if I understand you correctly, they have the numbers but we have the gadgets and know how to use them?
I still think the greatest weapon the world has ever seen is information, a bomb or army is only is as useful as the information given to them.

Bratwurst Boy:

I'm against a conscription army...

Agreed.

Bratwurst Boy:

The ultimate weapon! :)

On of my favorite films Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb.

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