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EU won't legislate on communist crimes

posts: 19

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Dec 22, 10, 20:24 #1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12059475

From the article:

The European Commission has rebuffed a call from several former Soviet bloc countries for the EU to legislate against the condoning or denial of totalitarian crimes.

But the Commission, which drafts EU laws, pledged to help keep the memory of such crimes alive across Europe.

The EU is treaty-bound to combat hate crimes that target national, religious or ethnic groups.

But the Commission says crimes based on politics are a national-level matter.

Should the EU be involved in this at all? Is there a double standard when condemning mass crimes?

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Dec 22, 10, 21:22 #2

convex:

The European Commission has rebuffed a call from several former Soviet bloc countries for the EU to legislate against the condoning or denial of totalitarian crimes.

That's understandable.
A good number of EU politicians from formerly communist states would have to be tried in courts of law. In some cases, the entire ownership structures of some countries would have to be revised as many of former commies are today's capitalists.

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,143 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 21:31 #3
Yawn. Because this is utterly boring. They gave - yawn again - a platform to the Smolenskists (I think some of my taxes went into that).

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Dec 22, 10, 21:52 #4
sobieski: Yawn. Because this is utterly boring. so why did you read that and why did you bother to answer to such boring stuff?

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 06:20 #5
The EU will never publicize, nor seek any kind of justice, even symbolic, for communist crimes...Ask me why and I will tell you.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 21:29 #6
convex: EU won't legislate on communist crimes Does Poland legislate on communist crimes?

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 21:36 #7
SeanBM: Does Poland legislate on communist crimes? Do you imply that both party's are doing (or rather not doing)that for the same reason ?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 21:38 #8
Ironside: Do you imply No. Does Poland legislate on communist crimes?

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 21:39 #9
Ironside: Does Poland legislate on communist crimes? Communist crimes (Polish law)

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 21:44 #10
AdamKadmon: Communist crimes (Polish law) Thanks, that's interesting.

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,143 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 21:57 #11
Yawn. The Smolenkists never give up.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 22:34 #12
joepilsudski: Ask me why and I will tell you. Please, tell Joe. I have some of my own thoughts on that, but would like to hear yours.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 22:39 #13
joepilsudski: The EU will never publicize, nor seek any kind of justice, even symbolic, for communist crimes...Ask me why and I will tell you. Nathan: Please, tell Joe. I have some of my own thoughts on that, but would like to hear yours. I'll save you the trouble - they are outside the EU's remit and are the legal responsibility of individual member states. No conspiracy.

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Dec 27, 10, 23:02 #14

EU won't legislate on communist crimes
The EU refused to draw equivalence between the two. An attempt to draw up a hierarchy of victimhood by clambering to the top was rejected. Poland to its credit didnt join this charade nor did Poland legislate to down play the uniqueness of the holocaust. The Lithuanian academic Leonidas Donskis coined the phrase stratocide to explain the difference. Stalinist crimes were not genocide.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 23:06 #15
Barney: stratocide Sounds a bit like democide, which the USSR is often accused of. I'd say that there was also genocide during the Stalin years, but the majority democide/stratocide.

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Edited by: Barney Dec 27, 10, 23:17 #16

jonni:

there was also genocide during the Stalin years

Yes, in soviet central Asia genocide happened. Stratocide could be described as such. These phrases were all coined to describe horrific events. The attempt to have Stalinist crimes in Eastern Europe made the same as Nazi crimes especially the Jewish genocide is an attempt to downplay the genocide and to forge an identity. What better way to form an identity than to have a captain evil trying to destroy you. In the Jewish case this was true in other cases Stratocide describes very well what happened.

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Dec 27, 10, 23:25 #17

Barney:

The attempt to have Stalinist crimes in Eastern Europe made the same as Nazi crimes especially the Jewish genocide is an attempt to downplay the genocide and to forge an identity.

I entirely agree. The original proposition that equates the crimes of the Stalinist years - done when things were going badly, with the holocaust (both genocide against Jews and Roma as well as democide against homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses and Masons) carried out with the intention of killing specific groups and done when things were going exactly to plan is rather disingenuous and opens the door to compensation claims against the former Soviet Union. Which some former Eastern-bloc politicians would rather like.

BarneyThreads: 16 Posts: 1,630 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Dec 27, 10, 23:34 #18
jonni: opens the door to compensation claims Here we have the beauty of simplicity, I hadnt thought of compensation:)

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Dec 27, 10, 23:46 #19

Barney:

Here we have the beauty of simplicity, I hadnt thought of compensation:)

Well, some politicians certainly have - remember Kaczor producing a ridiculous reparations bill for the Germans, including an estimate of how many bicycles were destroyed? All added up by accountants working at our expense. Now if the proposition to equate Stalinist crimes with the holocaust was passed (by whom? it isn't the EU's responsibility) that would open the door to compensation claims. Which in turn would lead further claims like those of Zimny Lech with governments being asked to pay for bicycles damaged 60 years ago. Ad infinitum.

This thread is about the proposition made to the EU. Only a tiny part of the EU was in the USSR, and a relatively small part of it in the non-USSR comecon countries. The EU has many roles, none of them concerning political pronouncements about things that are alleged to have happened to citizens of member states many years before EU accession perpetrated by people who may or may not now be citizens of the same or other members states.

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