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General Jaruzelski in hospital


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JonnyMThreads: 16
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Edited by: JonnyM  Mar 16, 11, 19:12    #1
General Wojciech Jaruzelski, the former communist leader who imposed Martial Law in Poland at the beginning of the 1980s, is currently receiving medical care after having contracted pleurisy.

The news was announced by the general’s wife, Halina Barbara Jaruzelska, who told the Polish Press Agency that her husband was at the Military Medical Institute in Warsaw.

“On Friday, doctors from the hospital at Szaserow in Warsaw diagnosed him with pleurisy. He’s fed intravenously and has a very high body temperature – up to 40 degrees Celsius,” reported the general’s wife.

Full story here.

WroclawThreads: 77
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 Mar 16, 11, 19:19    #2
JonnyM:
General Wojciech Jaruzelski,


I met him many years ago. and as he was polite to me i wish him well.

i'm very aware of what some folk might think about him.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Mar 16, 11, 19:23    #3
I haven't really met him, but he was my neighbour for 5 years - sometimes used to wave when I was walking the dog. Hope he recovers, though recent photos suggest he's deteriorated quite a lot.
PennBoyThreads: 157
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 Mar 16, 11, 19:34    #4
JonnyM:
I haven't really met him, but he was my neighbour for 5 years

My father met him serving in the Polish People's Army, at an another general's funeral who died in a roadside accident. I myself don't know what to make of him, part of me believes him that all he did was for the good of Poland another part thinks he did everything to please the Russians. (?)
I wish him well.
In WarsawThreads: 2
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 Mar 16, 11, 19:48    #5
Let's hope he's better soon: the man's done far more for Poland than anybody who posts here.
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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 Mar 16, 11, 19:52    #6
PennBoy:
I wish him well.


I don't.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Mar 16, 11, 19:54    #7
Grzegorz_:
I don't.

Paid back your share of the EU subsidies yet, as you said you would?
SeanBMThreads: 41
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Edited by: SeanBM  Mar 16, 11, 20:01    #8
Martial law in Poland (Polish: Stan wojenny w Polsce, "the state of war") refers to the period of time from December 13, 1981 to July 22, 1983, when the authoritarian government of the People's Republic of Poland drastically restricted normal life by introducing martial law in an attempt to crush political opposition to it. Thousands of opposition activists were interned without charge and as many as 100 people were killed.[1] Although martial law was lifted in 1983, many of the political prisoners were not released until the general amnesty in 1986.

WIki

The Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) says it has documentary proof that General Wojciech Jaruzelski, now 86, requested the Kremlin’s help just days before imposing martial law.

NPE

Very interesting interview with him here:
I am not saying this is a forgery. I am saying that it is written in such a way that it can be interpreted in various ways. And I think the main thing is the final word -- I don't remember it, but he wrote that at the end of the conversation Marshal Kulikov asked me if he could report to Brezhnev that we have made the decision to introduce martial law. And my answer was: "Only if you provide us with help."

Poland's Jaruzelski Again Denies Seeking Soviet Intervention Against Solidarity


As for my opinion, if there is proof, why isn't he being charged?
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 Mar 16, 11, 20:03    #9
JonnyM:
Paid back your share of the EU subsidies yet, as you said you would?


No. No one calculated my share and there's no mechanism of paying It bak, so how would I do that ?
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Mar 16, 11, 20:03    #10
SeanBM:
As for my opinion, if there is proof, why isn't he being charged?

He is, but people are squeamish about prosecuting their former president, so the court keep adjourning it assuming he'll die before they need to make a judgement.
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Edited by: SeanBM  Mar 16, 11, 20:04    #11
JonnyM:
it assuming he'll die before they need to make a judgement.

Surely the court would need to make a judgement even if he dies?
Either to clear his name or to let the people know what happened and why?
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
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 Mar 16, 11, 20:07    #12
Leave the old man be.
emhaThreads: -
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 Mar 16, 11, 20:10    #13
In Warsaw:
the man's done far more for Poland than anybody who posts here

Yes. Ethnic cleansing in Polish army in 1968.
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 Mar 16, 11, 20:10    #14
SeanBM:
Surely the court would need to make a judgement even if he dies?

It's a criminal case, so it would end with his death.
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Edited by: SeanBM  Mar 16, 11, 20:13    #15
JonnyM:
It's a criminal case, so it would end with his death.

Either way that isn't good, if he is innocent and people think he was the cause of the suffering, then his name will remain tarnished in the history books.
If he did ask for military help from the Soviet Union in quashing solidarity, I think people have a right to know.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Mar 16, 11, 20:15    #16
SeanBM:
then his name will remain tarnished.

That's the issue, though at least he has the presumption of innocence as things stand. His trial relates to various issues, not at all clear cut.
SeanBMThreads: 41
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Edited by: SeanBM  Mar 16, 11, 20:19    #17
JonnyM:
though at least he has the presumption of innocence as things stand.

Yes but we both know that the jury of public opinion is not so understanding, especially with evidence.
I should probably say ''potential evidence''?

JonnyM:
His trial relates to various issues, not at all clear cut.

Give us a nibble, got any issues on the case?
JonnyMThreads: 16
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Edited by: JonnyM  Mar 16, 11, 20:21    #18
SeanBM:
Give us a nibble, got any issues on the case?

I don't remember whether or not the charges include ordering soldiers to fire on the 1971 Gdańsk strikers. They certainly include illegal imprisonment of civillians, which technically he did. Plus some obscure constitutional issues.
SeanBM:
Yes but we both know that the jury of public opinion is not so understanding, especially with evidence.

Sadly true.
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 Mar 16, 11, 20:29    #19
Gotta love PF: foreigners (but one) discussing the politician whose "dedication" they didn't have to live under. Yep, totally reasonable.
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 Mar 16, 11, 20:30    #20
JonnyM:
I don't remember whether or not the charges include ordering soldiers to fire on the 1971 Gdańsk strikers.

Yeah apparently so:
In 1971, a year after the Baltic shootings for which he is now being tried, he became a full member of the Communist Party Politburo.

BBC

I didn't know about that or that he was forced into labour as a kid in the Soviet Union.

On 31 March 2006, the IPN charged him with committing communist crimes, mainly the creation of a criminal military organization with the aim of conducting crimes (mostly concerned with the illegal imprisonment of people). The second charge involves the incitement of state ministers to commit acts beyond their competence[citation needed]. Jaruzelski has avoided most court appearances citing poor health.

Wiki
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Mar 16, 11, 21:24    #21
Grzegorz_:

No. No one calculated my share and there's no mechanism of paying It bak, so how would I do that ?

Divide the total combined subsidy by 38 million then make a bank transfer. Simple as.
PennBoyThreads: 157
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Edited by: PennBoy  Mar 16, 11, 21:37    #22
“On Friday, doctors from the hospital at Szaserow in Warsaw diagnosed him with pleurisy. He’s fed intravenously and has a very high body temperature – up to 40 degrees Celsius,” reported the general’s wife. For someone who was considered a weakling at the military academy, who served in a highest positions in the military and government with all the stresses that go along with it, not to mention these accusations over the last several years and to live 87 years it's amazing.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Mar 16, 11, 21:51    #23
Bzibzioh:
Gotta love PF: foreigners (but one) discussing the politician whose "dedication" they didn't have to live under. Yep, totally reasonable.


Most of us realise the sheer stupidity of trying to drag a sick and ill old man through the courts.

PennBoy:
I myself don't know what to make of him, part of me believes him that all he did was for the good of Poland another part thinks he did everything to please the Russians. (?)


The truth is probably somewhere in the middle - while he was undeniably Moscow's trusted man for many years, he showed incredible courage and bravery when overseeing the transition from socialism to democracy. The fact that he managed to persuade the PZPR to give up power peacefully, with only very minor blips along the way is a huge achievement - at the time of the May 89 elections, he was hardly to know that the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact would disintegrate so quickly.

Something that a lot of people seem to forget - Poland in 1981 was falling apart. Jaruzelski was still bound by the Brzehnev doctrine - what else could he do to break Solidarity? He would have had the memory of the Prague Spring in his mind - after all, he would have no doubt been involved in sending forces to Czechoslovakia in 1968.

Really, my view is that while he was undeniably a Soviet stooge for many, many years (after suffering who knows what at their hands) - he was a Polish patriot in the end. His graceful resignation of the Presidency after overseeing the transition to democracy was very much a positive act.
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Mar 16, 11, 21:54    #24
delphiandomine:
Most of us realise the sheer stupidity of trying to drag a sick and ill old man through the courts.


Would you say the same to Demjanjuk? Who wasn't even a top dog as Jaruzelski was...
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 Mar 16, 11, 21:56    #25
delphiandomine:
Most of us realise the sheer stupidity of trying to drag a sick and ill old man through the courts.

You'd sing another song if you lost a loved one because of that "sick and ill old man". Or suffered in myriad of ways because what he did.
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 Mar 16, 11, 21:57    #26
Bratwurst Boy:

Would you say the same to Demjanjuk?

Personally yes. It has been left far too late, there are questions of identity, he's already been acquitted of the charges in another jurisdiction and the guy is so decrepit that the present trial is bordering on cruelty.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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Edited by: delphiandomine  Mar 16, 11, 21:58    #27
Bratwurst Boy:
Would you say the same to Demjanjuk?


Pretty much - I was never a fan of the (West) German approach of trying to prosecute everyone for something, anything. Nowadays, it would make far more sense to establish some sort of Truth commission rather than criminal trials.

I must admit - the trials of East Germans after reunification always struck me as being rather for show. Perhaps they were based on the Nuremburg doctrines, but still - it always seemed bizzare that people were being trialled under the (West) German law rather than the East German law in force at the time.

Poland seems to be (absolutely ridiculously, this is Poland!) pragmatically trying to prosecute Jaruzelski based on the laws of the PRL at the time - which is the way it should be.

(but then, of course, Nuremburg did establish the concept that human rights are the most important)

Bzibzioh:
You'd sing another song if you lost a loved one because of that "sick and ill old man". Or suffered in myriad of ways because what he did.


May I remind you that Poland is built upon the Christian religion?

I quote.

Bible, Colossians 3:13:
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.


Or perhaps.

Bible, Mark 11:25:
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.


Perhaps you might want to take inspiration from the book on which Polish civilisation is founded.
warszawskiThreads: 60
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 Mar 16, 11, 22:14    #28
JonnyM:
he was my neighbour for 5 years


So you were my neighbor as well, if you lived in Pod Skocznią.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
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 Mar 16, 11, 22:14    #29
Poland's Constituional Tribubnal has only jsut ruled that martial law was illegal. By umposing it, even in violation of commie law, Jaruzelski committed a crime, so we we've got a political criminal on his deathbed.
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 Mar 16, 11, 22:15    #30
Polonius3:
Poland's Constituional Tribubnal has only jsut ruled that martial law was illegal. By umposing it, even in violation of commie law, Jaruzelski committed a crime, so we we've got a political criminal on his deathbed.


Did they rule that it was illegal under the law of the time, or illegal in a more vague sense?

I'm pretty certain that it was an illegal act under the PRL law in force at the time, however.


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