Holocaust was a Jewish invention, says top Polish bishop

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Edited by: Harry Feb 19, 10, 01:44 #331

Marek11111:

Harry I do not lie about holocaust I am just pointing out that holocaust happen not only to Jews but to other and now we have Palestinian holocaust done by Jews and if you point this out you get accused of being anti-Semite and holocaust denier by Jews.

Your lies are right there in my post for everybody to see. Nice try with throwing out that line about the 'Palestinian holocaust' in the hope you'd provoke somebody, but you won't so easily distract attention from your lies. The best thing you can do is to slink back under your rock until you and six of your neo-Nazi coward friends get brave enough to say something really threatening to an old Roma woman on the streets of your toilet of a town.

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Feb 19, 10, 02:01 #332

Marek11111:

holocaust to Palestinians

Again, nice try but you won't get a bite with that bait. Try something else to distract attention from you being caught lying.

Marek11111:

are you ready to tell me why you lie about Poles?

Is that the third or fourth time you've accused me of lying without providing even a single lie? See an differerence? I give three examples of your lies in a single paragraph when I point out you're a liar: you call me a liar 3 times but quote not even a single lie.

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Feb 19, 10, 17:51 #333

Marek11111:

Thus, IMO, a more accurate number of Jewish deaths from 'ALL CAUSES' during WWII is about 3,000,000. This still is a very large number and many Nazi's were clearly complicit in the murder or abuse of Jews. However, the Jews don't like to use this lower number. Why? By claiming 6,000,000 as historical fact it gave them the high moral ground that enabled them to garner support for the creation of Israel out of land owned by other peoples. A 3,000,000 number would place the Jewish holocaust into an entirely different historical perspective - much more along the lines of the murders of Armenias by Turks in 1910's, Cambodians in the 1970's, Rwandans in the 1990's, the American Indians by Americans/Spanish/British in the 1600-1700 era, etc.

Marek11111:

Steveramsfan you do not know no one has the exact numbers the best estimate is 3 million not 6 million as reported

Marek11111:

Harry I do not lie about holocaust I am just pointing out that holocaust happen not only to Jews but to other and now we have Palestinian holocaust done by Jews and if you point this out you get accused of being anti-Semite and holocaust denier by Jews.

I don't see that you mention any other people killed. You just come out with rubbish. I have read around this subject, i've been to many camps and your number of victims seems too low. I don't blindly follow anything, from what I have read and what i have seen i think 6 million jews is the best estimate.

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Edited by: joepilsudski Feb 19, 10, 21:09 #334

Barney:

Joe

You did a search for "Rothschild" didn’t you?;)

I have been researching Rothschilds for many years...As far as there economic activities in Ireland, I am not savvy...Rothschilds go where there is money to be made, and Ireland has been relatively poor for the last few centuries.

As far as Bono, I mention him because he now claims to be 'a Jew'...He does have some Jewish ancestry.

Back on point, perhaps the question should be 'Is the Holocaust Used as A Marketing Tool for Zionism?'

I say this because we all realize that many Jews were used as pawns, displaced, killed during WWII...No one disputes this...WWII was 'a holocaust' for most of Europe.

What think ye?

MEMBER ♂

Feb 20, 10, 01:13 #335

just because everyone repeats a lie the lie does not become truth it is still a lie.
again no investigation took place after the war and we know that estimate from Auschwitz after war was 6 million dead then revised to 1.1 million dead it means that someone exaggerated the numbers for some reason, so why don't you stop being ignorant and stop refusing all points and be like a good sheep that follows blindly

Steveramsfan you do not know no one has the exact numbers the best estimate is 3 million not 6 million as reported, no one did any investigation they just pull numbers out of their ass after the war.

Thus, IMO, a more accurate number of Jewish deaths from 'ALL CAUSES' during WWII is about 3,000,000. This still is a very large number and many Nazi's were clearly complicit in the murder or abuse of Jews. However, the Jews don't like to use this lower number. Why? By claiming 6,000,000 as historical fact it gave them the high moral ground that enabled them to garner support for the creation of Israel out of land owned by other peoples. A 3,000,000 number would place the Jewish holocaust into an entirely different historical perspective - much more along the lines of the murders of Armenias by Turks in 1910's, Cambodians in the 1970's, Rwandans in the 1990's, the American Indians by Americans/Spanish/British in the 1600-1700 era, etc.

Harry I do not lie about holocaust I am just pointing out that holocaust happen not only to Jews but to other and now we have Palestinian holocaust done by Jews and if you point this out you get accused of being anti-Semite and holocaust denier by Jews.

the post was "Holocaust was a Jewish invention, says top Polish bishop"

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Feb 20, 10, 12:23 #336

Marek11111:

the post was "Holocaust was a Jewish invention, says top Polish bishop"

What does that have to do with the rubbish you keep posting.

There were lots of investigations, what do you think Historians do?

Repeat what others tell them or research?

You are saying it was only 3 million so why all the fuss.

about 6 million Jews were killed, about 6 million Poles were killed. 3 million were Polish Jews which means 9 million Polish and Jews were killed. When the majority of Jews talk about the Holocaust they only mean the 6 million Jews.

This is what the Bishop meant but it got twisted.

Tip - Don't speak to anybody in the press unless its a live interview.

MEMBER ♂

Feb 20, 10, 15:00 #337

Steveramsfan I was just pointing out there different opinion now my pint was that
Jews took ownership of the word " holocaust " but holocaust happen to Poles, Roma people,
Ukrainians under Stalin and others but it is not mention anywhere.
second point was that if you pint out what Jews are duing to Palestinians they are always invoke the word " holocaust " as excuse to kill, and if you do not back down then they use personal attacks against you.

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Feb 21, 10, 11:37 #338

Marek11111:

if you pint out what Jews are duing to Palestinians they are always invoke the word " holocaust " as excuse to kill

Since when do Israelis invoke that word as an excuse to kill? Give me a quote to prove your claim. When we kill people who attack us with bombs and rockets we use a different word to excuse it – that word is DEFENSE. We defend our country just like you would.

The ones who invoke the Holocaust word are the anti-israel propagandists who want the world to think of Israelis as the new nazis.

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Feb 21, 10, 11:48 #339

yehudi:

When we kill people who attack us with bombs and rockets we use a different word to excuse it – that word is DEFENSE. We defend our country just like you would.

Look at it from a Palestinian point of view.

When we use bombs and rockets to kill the people who attacked us with bombs and shootings we use a different word to excuse it - that word is DEFENSE. We defend our country just like you would.

Who is right?

No one - Israelis and Palestinians are both wrong

yehudi:

Since when do Israelis invoke that word as an excuse to kill?

Its used as a reason why Israel was formed in 1948. So defending that country can be seen as reasonable because of what happened under the Nazi's.

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Feb 21, 10, 11:49 #340

Yehudi is right, it's all in the name of defence. However, what he didn't mention was that international norms don't come into it. Proportionality, for example. OCL was an abomination and thank you Richard Goldstone for exposing the heinous crimes. The IDF was NOT acting in defence there and rockets were like pea shooters most of the time. Need I remind yehudi of my calculation based on numerous sources? Hamas and other groups would need 60 years to kill as many Israelis as the IDF did in 3 weeks. Why hasn't anyone been prosecuted yet? The guilt of the Holocaust, though overplayed, undoubtedly has a role in that consideration.

Israel has a right to self defence but needlessly slaughtering 1300 Palestinians on their own territory is not the way to do it. The IDF went to them, not vice-versa.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Feb 21, 10, 11:55 #341
yehudi: The ones who invoke the Holocaust word are the anti-israel propagandists who want the world to think of Israelis as the new nazis. maybe, or just maybe some of them have really moral issues at stake? Killing unarmed women and children in the name of defense is wrong, or you believe otherwise ?

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Edited by: szkotja2007 Feb 21, 10, 13:16 #342

yehudi:

Since when do Israelis invoke that word as an excuse to kill?

Since Nahum Goldmann and Ben Gurion to the present day.

yehudi:

Give me a quote to prove your claim

"Israeli prime minister vows Palestinian Holocaust"

yehudi:

When we kill people who attack us

Majority of people Israel kill are children.

yehudi:

that word is DEFENSE. We defend our country just like you would.

Is this a quote from Goebbels ?

yehudi:

anti-israel propagandists who want the world to think of Israelis as the new nazis

That'll be me then ;-)

P.S. Has anyone seen my passport ? I'm sure its about here somewhere, I just put it down for a second and.....................

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂	Feb 21, 10, 13:21 #343
szkotja2007: P.S. Has anyone seen my passport ? I'm sure its about here somewhere, I just put it down for a second and..................... LOL!! thats good :D

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Feb 21, 10, 15:55 #344

Steveramsfan:

Its used as a reason why Israel was formed in 1948.

Israel wasn't formed as a result of the holocaust. The movement to build a homeland, the building of Tel Aviv and other cities and towns, the revival of the hebrew language, defense against arab violence and the struggle against british betrayal started well before the holocaust. The Zionist movement formally started in the late 19th century and its roots were a lot older than that.

Steveramsfan:

So defending that country can be seen as reasonable because of what happened under the Nazi's.

It certainly is reasonable to defend one's country, especially when you consider what happened under the nazis' as you say. But that's not the same as saying that we claim the right to kill civilians because the nazi's killed us. We don't claim the right to kill civilians. We try not to, but there is always "collateral damage" in any war, especially when one side doesn't take any steps to protect its own civilians by building shelters or keeping rocket launchers out of residential streets and backyards.

Ironside:

Killing unarmed women and children in the name of defense is wrong, or you believe otherwise ?

Ditto.
Does that apply to Hamas sending suicide bombers to Israeli markets and restaurants, or is that a war of national liberation?

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Feb 21, 10, 16:23 #345
yehudi: Does that apply to Hamas its general rule, it apply to everyone but you didn't answer my question!

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Feb 21, 10, 16:44 #346

yehudi:

The movement to build a homeland, the building of Tel Aviv and other cities and towns, the revival of the hebrew language, defense against arab violence and the struggle against british betrayal started well before the holocaust.

But it gained international support after the Holocaust and only came to fruition after the Holocaust when Jewish terrorists started to use terrorism.

Until Israel can see the Palestinian side of the story and see past the fundamentalist Palestinians and realise there are decent people amongst the terrorists both sides will keep killing innocents.

Collateral Damage are words used by people who don't care.

Israel uses the Holocaust to try and get sympathy from the international community.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Feb 21, 10, 17:12 #347
Steveramsfan: Israel uses the Holocaust to try and get sympathy from the international community. As opposed to...say...Poland??? ;) Again, they are in a war and they use any weapon they have. (So does ANY country). Once this war is over we won't hear so much about the holocaust anymore...

stefanosThreads: 2 Posts: 5 Joined: Feb 21, 10 ♂	Feb 21, 10, 17:13 #348
I believe in Polish Holocaust!! Millions of Polish were killed in War!!! The media don't talk

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Feb 21, 10, 18:34 #349
Bratwurst Boy: As opposed to...say...Poland??? ;) tally ho ! Hun in sight ! let go hunting, my Friend

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 21, 10, 19:55 #350
Jews and Palestinian have been killing each other from 1937 starting with Zionist terrorists and ending with Hamas, maybe it's time for different approach as two state solution and closing the illegal settlements. Personally I do not see the end in sight as Israel and Palestinians seems always find way to derail the negotiations

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Feb 22, 10, 10:02 #351

Marek11111:

Jews and Palestinian have been killing each other from 1937

Actually, palestinians rioted against Jews in 1921 (47 killed) and 1929 (about 80 killed) and then again in 1936, which is probably what you're referring to.

Marek11111:

maybe it's time for different approach as two state solution

Israel already accepted that solution with the Oslo agreements and again at Camp David, while the palestinian response was the 2nd intifada.

Marek11111:

and closing the illegal settlements

Nothing illegal about them.

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Feb 22, 10, 15:34 #352
yehudi: Nothing illegal about them. According to an Israeli interpretation of international law this is correct, according to everyone else the settlements (including East Jerusalem) are illegal. If the settlements are legal and Israeli, why not consider all the people in that area Israeli?

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	Feb 22, 10, 16:45 #353
Barney: According to an Israeli interpretation of international law this is correct, What country did we "steal" them from? Barney: If the settlements are legal and Israeli, why not consider all the people in that area Israeli? The people in the settlements are Israeli. The arabs in the same areas don't want to be israeli. Are you sating we should force them to be?

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Feb 22, 10, 17:18 #354
yehudi: What country did we "steal" them from? Asking a dissembling question gets one in return, What country did Israel steal its land from? yehudi: Are you sating we should force them to be? What constitutes an Israeli? You have responsibility for the inhabitants, give them the option of voting or not.

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Feb 22, 10, 17:30 #355

Barney:

You have responsibility for the inhabitants, give them the option of voting or not.

It is not possible for Israel to be democratic and survive as a Jewish state. Within a generation (give or take a decade or two), Israelis would be run over by Palestinians. Legally and without bombs. Just check the birth rates for Israelis and Palestinians.

44% of Palestinians are at or under 14 years of age.
28% of Israel's residents (including Arabs) are at or under 14 years of age.

Israeli population is simply older than Palestinian. If the trend continues there won't be that many Israelis left to vote. This is global trend, and even more severe in EU.

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Feb 22, 10, 18:05 #356
Darius I know and that is the point. Insisting that the settlements are legal and the lack of a partner (in peace or war) can only mean the non Jewish inhabitants of the land in dispute are being discriminated against, they have no way to have their voice heard.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Feb 22, 10, 18:44 #357

z_darius:

It is not possible for Israel to be democratic and survive as a Jewish state. Within a generation (give or take a decade or two), Israelis would be run over by Palestinians. Legally and without bombs. Just check the birth rates for Israelis and Palestinians.

Hence the need for the two state solution...
That is the only logical choice if the jewish state want to survive as a jewish state.

But as it is this solution is more than ever opposed by those who (as the settler) dream the dream of Eretz Israel, somehow hoping God will take the Arabs away or that they all pack their bags and go to Jordan or fully trusting their modern IDF...

The Israeli mood in their majority is seemingly against cutting their losses, making a clean cut, lose some territory, secure the rest with a high wall and move on.

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Feb 23, 10, 13:54 #358

Actually I think the mood of the majority is something like this:
We accept the two-state solution reluctantly (as we have since camp david in 2000). The reasons for it are as you said: we want to maintain a clear Jewish majority in the Jewish state and we want to remain a democracy.
The reasons we're reluctant about it are as follows:
1. The land in question is the heartland of the biblical Jewish homeland.
2. A palestinian state will be a severe security problem for Israel. Now they lob rockets from Gaza into the periphery of southern israel, but with full control of Samaria they will lob rockets into tel aviv, jerusalem and Ben-Gurion airport and bring the country to a standstill. This will be an impossible situation and we will react with military force to stop it and then there will be war all over again, only worse than now because we'll have a more difficult starting point.
The high wall you recommend is useless against rockets and mortars.
3. Palestinian society is not organized enough to run a city, let alone a country.
4. Hamas could easily take over an independent palestine and they are clear about not wanting peace with israel, which returns us to item 2.

But assuming they have their own state and it's peaceful (a very big assumption), there's no reason why Jews can't live there just like arabs live in israel. So the settlements can stay just like Israel's arab towns stay where they are.

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Edited by: Rockergirlie Feb 23, 10, 14:04 #359

As a Polish Catholic engaged to a Jewish man, this honestly stabs at the depths of my heart.

Since the Middle Ages, Poland has been welcoming to Jews and other minorities from all over the Middle East and Russia. We were one of the ONLY countries at that time to not only tolerate, but accept and celebrate Jewish culture and that of the nomads and minorities.

Yiddish language, literature, theatre, and music thrived in Poland largely until 1945. Even through WWII, Yiddish survived and traveled to other countries.

If Poland is willing to change its stance now, it is COMPLETELY compromising its cultural AND religious heritage. I'm so proud to see so many Poles (Catholic and otherwise) standing up for their nationality and heritage.

As the great "Anti-Communist" author Milosz has described... Ketman is very important :)

We are not Catholic. We are not Jewish. We are Polish.

Nu....

Before you make a statement about Jewish culture in Poland, please research some on Yiddish culture.

If you do not speak or read Yiddish, your information could be vastly improved.

RE: Vilna Ghettos, Warsaw Uprising, etc.

So much was written (and saved by Sutzkever and YIVO) which no one in Poland even cares about.

We only seem to care about the politics. It's terrible. Polish culture is Polish. We should all care about it.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Feb 23, 10, 14:18 #360

yehudi:

1. The land in question is the heartland ....homeland.

Well...that sentence (of course with differing participants) was never good news and will never be.

yehudi:

2. A palestinian state will be a severe security problem for Israel....only worse than now because we'll have a more difficult starting point.

Israels position with the image as a brutal occupier can't get any more difficult as it is today. It is this world opinion which gives the Palis so much power over you.
Agree to the UN, EU, US plans and you will make the Palis to the baddies with one subscription on a treaty.
When they don't stop to attack you, they will lose most of their support they ever had, becoming baddies like the Taliban.
Israel's position becomes much more defensable.

yehudi:

3. Palestinian society is not organized enough to run a city, let alone a country.

Not your problem.
And believe me....the Palis will get alot of support from the funds of the EU, as they do now..:(

yehudi:

4. Hamas could easily take over an independent palestine and they are clear about not wanting peace with israel, which returns us to item 2

Even that will strenghten Israel again. As your image will now change to a real democracy under attack by islamist nutters, (instead of palestinian freedom fighters fighting for their right of a homeland), killing innocent Israeli children.
You see the difference in perception?
The hasbara of Israel will improve dramatically!

yehudi:

But assuming they have their own state and it's peaceful (a very big assumption),

Well, shortly after WWII peaceful living together between civilian Germans in the countries our army had just left was not possible either. Leading to about 14 million German refugees.

No, honestly I don't think the settlements can stay...Maybe one or two generation later, once the ME has reconciled with each other, maybe build some ME union or such, then yes. But not now....

Again, it isn't the Hamas rockets what endangers Israel's future so much right now, nor will your IDF secure your future.
As it is, the Palis lead you on your nose around...take their arguments from them and see how they will scream!

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