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Holocaust was a Jewish invention, says top Polish bishop

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Feb 23, 10, 16:00 #361

The settlements are the biggest threat to Israeli democracy and the very nature of the Jewish state.

yehudi:

But assuming they have their own state and it's peaceful (a very big assumption), there's no reason why Jews can't live there just like arabs live in israel. So the settlements can stay just like Israel's arab towns stay where they are.

Stating that there are Israeli Arabs is a very thin defence of the legitimacy of the settlements and the consequences for Israeli democracy.

Israel hasn’t always been so bullish with regard to settlements, sometimes they are legal sometimes they are not just like the idea of Israel’s borders shifting with the political wind.

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Edited by: yehudi Feb 23, 10, 16:09 #362

Bratwurst,
Your recommendations almost all deal with our image problem. Without meaning to ignore that, it is not our main problem. When I say we'll be in a more difficult position fighting terrorism coming from a palestinian state I mean militarily more difficult. That, by the way, also affects our PR too. For example, as long as we have military presence in the west bank, we're able to stop terror activities before they happen, and the terror groups can't get too much weaponry. Once we're gone it will be the same as Hizbullah in Lebanon – they will be able to arm themselves to the teeth and dig bunkers and underground rocket launchers and we won't be able to do a thing... Until the situation gets really bad and then we'll attack. But, just like in lebanon, it will require a lot more firepower and more civilians will get killed. Then what has anyone gained?

As far as your advice to agree to a treaty so that the world will see the palestinians as the bad guys and us as the peace-loving good guys – we've been there, done that. In camp david in 2000 Barak agreed to letting Arafat have about 90% of the westbank and gaza to set up a state. He turned us down and started the intifada (riots). I don't remember that episode helping our hasbara at all. I do remember people being killed and crippled by palestinian bombs in streets, restaurants and busses.

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Feb 23, 10, 16:21 #363

Yehudi made some good points there. Clinton was furious with Arafat but he was just a NWO clown anyway. Barak put a really good offer on the table and it was rejected by the then PLO. Arafat was under pressure not to accept it. You simply can't cave in to terrorists and Israel is well down a certain path of logical resistance. Sometimes I lean more towards freedom fighters as they have a strong case but they are still terrorising Israeli people, we can't get away from that fact. What I don't like is provocation by Netanyahu. They want to convert a holy site in Hebron which will infuriate Palestinians. The settlement issue has also been decided by the ICJ in 2004 but nothing has been done to follow its rulings.

I can fully understand Yehudi's position. He is likely a nice guy who is trying to get on with his life but his government, largely through the IDF, are putting a spanner in the works with their disproportionate responses and flagrant violations of international law. That simply increases the hatred and poor, innocent people suffer. I hope yehudi stays safe as he is a valued contributor, an onsite commentator as it were.

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Feb 23, 10, 17:04 #364
Seanus: Barak put a really good offer on the table Not such a good offer if truth be told, in fact an offer Arafat had to refuse and the Israeli's knew it.

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Feb 23, 10, 17:50 #365

Barney:

Not such a good offer if truth be told, in fact an offer Arafat had to refuse and the Israeli's knew it.

No offer is perfect, certainly not while bargaining in the middle east. But if they took it, they would have had a state. (In fact if they took the partition plan of 1947 they would have had an even bigger state). So did it occur to you that maybe having a state is not really that important to them? Maybe they are much more interesting in making sure that Jews don't have a state. I have absolutely no doubt that if Israel were to disappear, there would be no palestinian state. No one is really interested. There would be one state including all of jordan and israel, probably linked to syria. You wouldn't hear the term "palestinian people" ever again, because it has no meaning beyond the conflict with zionism.

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Feb 23, 10, 18:25 #366

yehudi:

No offer is perfect

And no division is perfect. Talk of 1947 and 2000 is pointless all that is to be achieved is point scoring. One could argue however that the failure of Camp David 2000 has left a larger problem for the Israelis to solve.

The situation today is that Israel exists and the Palestinians recognise that as fact.

The situation is not to anyone’s liking. How does Israel remain a democracy with a decidedly Jewish flavour?

yehudi:

You wouldn't hear the term "palestinian people" ever again, because it has no meaning beyond the conflict with zionism.

Israel recognises the Palestinian People as an identifiable group of humans. They have a history, dialect and culture that make them so. Palestinians are not some kind of flip side of the Zionist coin, Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens and Palestinian, one could say Zionist by abstention.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Feb 23, 10, 18:58 #367

yehudi:

Without meaning to ignore that, it is not our main problem.

See, and here I beg to differ.

Israel is to tiny to go into splendid isolation mode like....say...Russia or the US.
You NEED the support from your own people in the diaspora but also the support and cash and material from the EU and the US.
When you are honest you know that Israel as we know it now wouldn't survive without their lifeline into the western world, that's why your image matters most for you.

Militarily you are not in grave danger (Iran's nukes or not)....your IDF will always win against the disunified, backward Arabs.

But Polls and surveys about Americans and Europeans which show that they are less and less inclined to help you, to support you, are important for the governments of the western world. How long can they ignore the mood of their own electorates?

Remember the isolation of apartheid South Africa? Or the Boycotts? How about Jews in the US and Europe also influenced by the bad image Israel has? Losing interest? Israel not any longer a bastion of democracy, worthy of our support but a shunned, isolated pariah?

That's what you are becoming, but can't afford!
Yes, your image in the world with those you NEED is more important for Israel than anything else!
As the Holocaust helped the jewish people to get their homeland and helped to maintain support and sympathy during the last decades, the images of killed palestinian babies by israely high tech tanks and jets is killing this sympathy - this war is won or lost in the media!

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Feb 24, 10, 10:21 #368

Bratwurst Boy:

this war is won or lost in the media!

I'm not saying that the image thing is not an important problem. I agree with that. But it's not our most important problem. A country is not something that exists only in newspapers and TV. It exists on the ground. People have to be able to live their lives, get to work, harvest their crops, drive on the roads, walk the streets, buy food, build factories and schools, etc without being suddenly blown up. (The effect of terrorism is not the actual number killed, but the number of people who feel the threat.) So keeping the threat of violence at bay is the main issue.

Remember also that the israeli mindset has been permanently altered by our history. The idea of being admired by the world as noble victims is repulsive to us. If we need foreign support (and every nation does) we would rather earn it by standing our ground and defending what is ours by right and by becoming a country that has what to contribute to its friends and allies. No one trades with israel because of pity, but because of the value of our products. And I don't believe that anyone, including the US would support us because of pity but only out of self-interest.

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Feb 24, 10, 10:46 #369

Seanus:

What I don't like is provocation by Netanyahu. They want to convert a holy site in Hebron which will infuriate Palestinians

There are two sites and there is a mosque at one of them. It just inflames the radical side on both sides. Not the smartest move at the moment after Dubai.

PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) also released statements today, calling Israel’s decision to include the two holy sites “a provocative dangerous act that may lead to a regional religious war”.

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 13:10 #370
Fine words that totally fail to address any issue. yehudi: The idea of being admired by the world as noble victims is repulsive to us No one likes being talked down to.

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 18:16 #371
I am amazed that Jews have some kind of claim to the land, they do not originated from there, initially they killed the all native inhabitants in Canaan, they ware invaders.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Feb 24, 10, 18:28 #372
Marek11111: initially they killed the all native inhabitants in Canaan, they ware invaders. And during the same period of time, where were the ancestors of today's Poles? Yet most Poles would say they have "some claim on the land". The stupidity of racists never ceases to amaze.

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 18:52 #373
learn history jonni even read bible the speak

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 18:59 #374
Marek11111: learn history jonni even read bible the speak Strange. But where were the Poles (or their ancestors) during that same period? In Poland?

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 19:13 #375
what you talking about jonni ?

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Feb 24, 10, 19:15 #376

yehudi:

People have to be able to live their lives, get to work, harvest their crops, drive on the roads, walk the streets, buy food, build factories and schools, etc without being suddenly blown up. (The effect of terrorism is not the actual number killed, but the number of people who feel the threat.) So keeping the threat of violence at bay is the main issue.

Sounds like people on both sides of the conflict.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 19:27 #377
Marek11111: what you talking about jonni ? answer: Marek11111: claim to the land, they do not originated from there,

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 19:42 #378
No jonni Jews originated from city Ur as religious cult ( today would be in Iraq ) emigrated to Egypt then with Moses they wonder around and ended in Canaan, it is the same as white people in Americas, they originated in Europe.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 19:44 #379
Marek11111: No jonni Jews originated from city Ur as religious cult Where did Poles originate? Not the territory of modern Poland. Yet they claim it as their own.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 19:52 #380
jonni: Where did Poles originate? Not the territory of modern Poland. We don't know for sure, but whatever we do know places the origin of Poles much closer to Poland than in the case of many other European nations and their respective countries.

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 19:56 #381
yes jonni Poland originated where poland is the first resemblance of a nation started with Mieszko and combine inhabitant of the region but if you have any other knowledge of as a poles moved from as religious or nationality group let me know I will gladly learn about it.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Feb 24, 10, 20:02 #382
Marek1111: started with Mieszko Thaousands of years after the period you're talking about. Where were tha ancestors of Poles at that time? That was my question. Marek11111: let me know I will gladly learn about it. And who lived in Mazowsze and central Poland at that time?

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 20:25 #383
jonni you have no point you just spiting hair and try to divert the conversation. Point is Jews moved to Canaan as religious group they indemnified as Jews then they kill inhabitants of Canaan and claim the land.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 20:28 #384
Marek11111: you just spiting hair and try to divert the conversation. It's the same logic. The ancestors of the Poles moved to today's Poland and "claimed the land" long after the ancestors of today's Jews moved to the area around Jerusalem. So, tell us, do both have a claim, or neither?

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 21:50 #385
Slavic people a tribe of Poles lived in area when they form a resemblance of a nation now Jews moved from Iraq to Canaan through Egypt in about 700 years developing their nationality self awareness on the way and on arrival to Canaan they kill dinginess population.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 23:04 #386
Marek11111: Slavic people a tribe of Poles lived in area when they form a resemblance of a nation Can you prove that that group of people have more or less claim to modern Warsaw than the Jews do to modern Jerusalem? No.

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 23:11 #387
no I can not prone it but what I can prove is that Poles did not kill any dinginess population. and we know that Jews killed dinginess population for their land.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 23:16 #388
Marek11111: no I can not prone it but what I can prove is that Poles did not kill any dinginess population I don't know what you mean by "dinginess", but how can you prove that the ancestors of the Poles, almost three thousand years ago didn't kill anyone?

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Feb 24, 10, 23:26 #389
Marek11111: and we know that Jews killed dinginess population for their land. Where do 'we' know this from? Please don't say the Bible. The Bible is scripture, not a history book.

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,859 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 24, 10, 23:38 #390
old testament is a history book slanted one way but a history book

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