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Israeli army destroys well restored by Polish charity


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JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 19, 12, 00:38    #61
Des Essientes:
Destroying peoples water wells and homes is most certainly abuse,

As proved above, there is an official water supply to that community already. You seem to be conveniently ignoring that.
Des Essientes:
Electronic Intifada

Really!
Des Essientes:
Is data from the WHO suspect when the source putting it on the web has an Arabic word in its name?

Yes,considering that so much of the rest of the world is in a far worse situation regarding water.

We've already established that they have normal water supplies. We've also established that this organisation were operating there illegally. Perhaps some sort of foreign organisation should pop over to your city and set up an alternative electricity grid.
modafinil:
It could have been an effective use of money, a real fishing rod, instead of a fish

The real question is, was it just naivete that led them to do get involved with circumventing state infrastructure in Israeli controlled territory where it was always likely to produce a response, or was it something else altogether.

BarneyThreads: 16
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 Feb 19, 12, 00:44    #62
JonnyM:
BTW, Poland and Israel are both middle income countries. Neither have water poverty - all the more remarkable on the part of Israel given the climate of the region and a sign of how efficient they are in providing a water supply than certain of their neighbours.

Interfering in the infrastructure of a sovereign state has a nasty political taint to it. One that anti-semites (and this thread is proof of that) are keen to scrape the bottom of the barrel by trying to exploit.

My emphasis

Racism raises its ugly head can just see people asking for pass books with their peaked caps after all it’s the law in a sovereign nation.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 19, 12, 00:49    #63
Barney:
after all it’s the law in a sovereign nation.

Indeed. And a nation fighting for its very survival and which has made the desert bloom.
modafinilThreads: -
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Edited by: modafinil  Feb 19, 12, 00:52    #64
JonnyM:
We've also established that this organisation were operating there illegally.

No they weren't. It was legit. It was declared illegal after the PAH had left. Not sure why when Israel coudn't be arsed to have a word with Poland dismantle it or ask them to take the cisterns back .They decided on wanton vandalism. But of course not discussing the issue and smashing sh1t up is the modus operandi of Israel.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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Edited by: JonnyM  Feb 19, 12, 00:55    #65
modafinil:
It was declared illegal after the PAH had left

At least they waited. It would have been far more useful to do something in one of those parts of Africa where water has to be brought on foot rather than delivered by the state.

If it seems harsh, remember that they've always got to up the ante or be crushed.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Edited by: Des Essientes  Feb 19, 12, 01:03    #66
JonnyM:
As proved above, there is an official water supply to that community already. You seem to be conveniently ignoring that.

An official water supply that the poor Palestinians must pay for. They got water from this well for free until the Israeli army destroyed it. Why do you think this is acceptable? Should Palestinians have to pay for the air they breathe too JonnyM? Do you have any sense of decency?
JonnyM:
Israel has an adequate water supply which is a testament to their efficiency as a state.

The West Bank does not have adequate water supply.
JonnyM:
Actually it's provided by the state on a not-for-profit basis.

^This statement is yet another craven lie.
A total of 227,500 Palestinians in 220 towns and villages in the West Bank are not connected to a water network at all, 75 percent of them in the northern West Bank. Another 190,000 Palestinians live in villages that are only partially connected to a water network. Some 20 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank are not connected to a water network.

Even in Palestinian towns and villages that have a water network, water supply is not regular most of the year. Water is supplied only some hours of the day, and sometimes on a rotational basis. In distant areas, water supply may be disconnected for days or weeks. Residents of communities with water networks hooked up to Mekorot report that the company discriminates against them, reducing water supply to Palestinian residents to enable it to meet the increased demand in the settlements.

To aggravate matters, Palestinian farmers hook up unlawfully to the water networks in Palestinian communities in Oslo-designated Area C. Israeli authorities, which are charged with enforcing the law in these areas, do not to put an end to the theft.

Water at inflated prices

Lacking regular water supply, many Palestinians have to buy water on the private market. Last year, the price for a cubic meter of water ranged from 15-30 shekels, three to six times higher than Israeli households pay. It is expected that prices will be even higher this year. The high rate of unemployment and poverty in the West Bank has made water purchases an economic burden for a substantial portion of the population.

Discrimination in division of water sources

Israel holds complete control of the water sources shared by Israel and the Palestinians, primarily the Mountain Aquifer, and prohibits by army order any Palestinian drilling of wells without a permit. At the same time, Israel draws from the West Bank, primarily from the Jordan Valley, some 44 mcm, five million more than it supplies to the Palestinian Authority. Israel allocates to Palestinians only 20 percent of the water from the Mountain Aquifer, and prevents the PWA to develop additional water sources to enable greater water supply for Palestinians in the West Bank.

Israel’s obligations under international law

As the occupying power, Israel is required under international humanitarian law to ensure public order and safety in the occupied territory, without discrimination. In addition, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which Israel ratified, ensures access to clean drinking water without discrimination. International human rights law also ensures the Palestinians’ right to utilize and enjoy freely their natural resources.

B’Tselem calls on the government of Israel to ensure, immediately and without discrimination, adequate, regular water supply to all residents of the West Bank. B’Tselem also urges the government to allow the Palestinian Authority to develop new water sources

B'Tselem is an Israeli human rights organization and the Electronic Intifada merely published this data collected by them. If all Palestinian sources of information are suspect to JonnyM perhaps he will believe the article I have been qouting when he realizes the data contained therein was collected by Israelis, but I suspect his blinders will not permit him to see that his claims regarding Israeli water benevolence, in this thread, have been false, and that he is defending an act of inhumanity, because it seems he hates Palestinians and he hates organizations that publish information regarding their plight, and he even calls a Polish charity that restores an ancient Palestinian water well anti-Semitic! This is absolutely shameful.

Israel you need to repair this well that you have destroyed and you need to provide adequate water supplies to the population of the West Bank which you occupy militarily. Do it. Do it now!
modafinilThreads: -
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Edited by: modafinil  Feb 19, 12, 01:10    #67
JonnyM:
At least they waited. It would have been far more useful to do something in one of those parts of Africa where water has to be brought on foot rather than delivered by the state.


Yes there is plenty of destitution but Poland are reletavly new to this compared to AI oxfam etc, and are taking their first steps. Reinforcing a well wall and installing cisterns is a good step. In Africa the issues of transporting water over miles is a big one. The independence PAH wanted to affor the Palestinians was noble. Would you Poland to pipe its energy from Russia when there is a resource under their feet. Whoever it was that said I pay bills in Poland so they should too doesn't have a well in their back garden. I'd hazard a guess that the volunteers were fresh faced Poles straight out of Uni who returned with the warm glow we all have when we do more than what is expected of us. To use a psudo-biblical analogy a good shepard would return a sheep that is not his to its owner. Not butcher it in a ditch and leave it for the flies.

JonnyM:
Indeed. And a nation fighting for its very survival and which has made the desert bloom.


That's America's funding. Might be blooming but something is rotten in its roots.
WroclawThreads: 77
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 Feb 19, 12, 01:11    #68
Des Essientes:
Israel you need to repair this well taht you have destroyed and you need to provide adequate water supplies to the population of the West Bank which you occupy militarily. Do it. Do it now!


there is more than one to repair. over the years dozens have been destroyed.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 19, 12, 01:13    #69
Des Essientes:
An official water supply that the poor Palestinians must pay for.

I have to pay for water, you probably have to pay for water, my neighbours (who are certainly poor) have to pay for water.
Des Essientes:
This statement is yet another craven lie.

Really? No, not really. Interesting you've dug up another political source.
Des Essientes:
all Palestinians sources of information are suspect

Yes, and so are their fellow-travellers.
Des Essientes:
he even calls a Polish charity that restores an ancient Palestinian water well anti-Semitic!

Actually I am calling you (and the OP) anti-Semitic for implacable opposition to the Jewish State on this and other threads.

Fortunately the prevailing view here in Poland is positive towards Israel.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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 Feb 19, 12, 01:21    #70
JonnyM:
I have to pay for water, you probably have to pay for water, my neighbours (who are certainly poor) have to pay for water.

Niether of us, nor your neighbors, are impoverished villagers languishing under foreign military occupation.
JonnyM:
Really? No, not really. Interesting you've dug up another political source.

It is from the same source I have been qouting all along.
JonnyM:
Actually I am calling you (and the OP) anti-Semitic for implacable opposition to the Jewish State on this and other threads.

If you don' think that the Israeli state deserves to be opposed for destroying a restored water well, that provided water for impoverished people, then you are a completely racist idiot. I am not an anti-Semite nor is the OP. We condemn this wanton destruction out of humanity and you defend it out of inhumanity. You are disgusting and this destruction of a water well restored by good Polish people is disgusting.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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Edited by: JonnyM  Feb 19, 12, 01:28    #71
Des Essientes:
languishing under foreign military occupation.

Languishing now! It would be much better to fully incorporate that territory into Israel.

Mind you, some of my neighbours are certainly pretty impoverished and most people here in Poland are villagers.
Des Essientes:
the same source I have been qouting

Quite.
Des Essientes:
If you don' think that the Israeli state deserves to be opposed

Of course not. They have to constantly up the stakes or be destroyed. Perhaps you'd like that.
Des Essientes:
We condemn

Here in Poland (it's worth mentioning again) the prevailing opinion is pro-Israel.
modafinilThreads: -
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 Feb 19, 12, 01:36    #72
JonnyM:
Here in Poland (it's worth mentioning again) the prevailing opinion is pro-Israel.


I know I'm straying but it is not Pro-Israel in the sense that Israel should incorporate Palestine. That's just you and a very tiny minority of extremists.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 19, 12, 01:41    #73
modafinil:
the sense that Israel should incorporate Palestine

The question is, what else can they do? The Palestinians were offered the two state solution right at the start and refused and the degree of hostility towards Israel is such that they have no alternative to acting as they do. It would make sense to fully incorporate the West Bank which in any case would be a far better place under Israel's stewardship than that of anybody else.
modafinilThreads: -
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 Feb 19, 12, 01:50    #74
JonnyM:
The question is, what else can they do? The Palestinians were offered the two state solution right at the start and refused and the degree of hostility towards Israel is such that they have no alternative to acting as they do. It would make sense to fully incorporate the West Bank which in any case would be a far better place under Israel's stewardship than that of anybody else.


Destroy Hamas. As Delph pointed out in the off-topic section civilians are the pawns willing to be sacrificed for Hamas The world bank has already made its calculations that as an independent state they could not float without investment and I really envision the same incompetence as happened in SA but self determination is for me, Right no1.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Feb 19, 12, 01:51    #75
JonnyM:
Here in Poland (it's worth mentioning again) the prevailing opinion is pro-Israel.

In a way but they are not informed about all those little facts that would make it less so!

JonnyM:
most people here in Poland are villagers.

Not really,only about 40% of the population.
JonnyM:
t would make sense to fully incorporate the West Bank which in any case would be a far better place under Israel's stewardship than that of anybody else.


What about population ?Should that be exterminated, put into a reservation or moved to the Madagascar ?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Feb 19, 12, 02:15    #76
modafinil:
Destroy Hamas.


I'd say that Hamas are one of the biggest stumbling blocks towards a permanent settlement. The utter mess that they've made of Gaza (along with all the horrible stuff such as demanding huge cash payments for people wanting to leave) is one huge reason why Israel will never deal with them on an equal basis.

modafinil:
As Delph pointed out in the off-topic section civilians are the pawns willing to be sacrificed for Hamas


Sadly so. I think that Gaza could have worked as a mini-state - Malta is smaller, for instance. They could have flourished by operating as a low-tax centre, backed up by the Israelis who could offer them decent military protection. But - no. They've blown it. I'm sure that if they offered Israel lasting peace, with defence provided by Israel - they would do fine. Israel would be happy with a demilitarised Gaza, they could show to Israel that the Palestinians were serious about lasting peace - and in time, they could regain full control of much of the West Bank too.

The solution is there - but the manipulation of the Palestinian people by the political leaders is the true shameful aspect of it all. What's even worse is that endless dodgy organisations have taken up the Palestinian "cause" in which to beat Israel with.

How come Des is suspended, btw?
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Feb 19, 12, 13:16    #77
modafinil:
Destroy Hamas. As Delph pointed out in the off-topic section civilians are the pawns willing to be sacrificed for Hamas The world bank has already made its calculations that as an independent state they could not float without investment and I really envision the same incompetence as happened in SA but self determination is for me, Right no1.

There's a lot of truth in that.
Ironside:
Not really,only about 40% of the population.

I'd go a bit further and say the dividing line between a village and a small town is a fine one.
Ironside:
What about population ?Should that be exterminated, put into a reservation or moved to the Madagascar ?

The culture in that part of the world is one of movement - it's usual to have family in more than one state. It wouldn't be brutal (or any more brutal than the situation at the moment) to resettle in Jordan. You'd also be surprised at how many people from round there have moved already and wouldn't go back under any circumstances.
delphiandomine:
adly so. I think that Gaza could have worked as a mini-state - Malta is smaller, for instance. They could have flourished by operating as a low-tax centre, backed up by the Israelis who could offer them decent military protection. But - no. They've blown it.

Pretty well true. Gaza has been a problem for years - far longer than Israel has been a state, but through education and inward investment (and the support of Israel) something could indeed have been done.

It's just a shame so much has been whipped up by outsiders - either 'useful idiots' building wells etc or foreign governments (Iran, Russia) who have an interest in keeping the place unstable.
HarryThreads: 62
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 Feb 19, 12, 13:33    #78
delphiandomine:
I'd say that Hamas are one of the biggest stumbling blocks towards a permanent settlement.

Agreed. But we're beginning to stray away from the topic.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Edited by: Des Essientes  Mar 6, 12, 01:07    #79
JonnyM:
The culture in that part of the world is one of movement - it's usual to have family in more than one state. It wouldn't be brutal (or any more brutal than the situation at the moment) to resettle in Jordan. You'd also be surprised at how many people from round there have moved already and wouldn't go back under any circumstances.

I would like the readers of this thread to note that the person qouted above, giving a particularly despicable Orientalist justification for ethnically cleansing 2.5 million people from the West Bank of Palestine, is not a Pole nor a Polonian. This person is advocating a horrendous crime against humanity and his views should not be confused with those of the righteous people of Poland who do not believe that driving millions out of their ancestral land wouldn't be "brutal".
May I ask this person what would be done to those Palestinians who refused to leave their homes to "resettle" in Jordan? Should they be killed like the villagers of Deir Yassin?
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Mar 6, 12, 01:14    #80
And what about the growing population of Israelis? Where should they live?
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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 Mar 6, 12, 01:24    #81
JonnyM:
And what about the growing population of Israelis? Where should they live?

You answered none of my questions, JohnnyM, and instead you've instead asked me these two ridiculous questions! Do you realize that the Nazis made the same appeal for "growing space" when they illegally annexed parts of Europe? Do you realize that ethnically cleansing occupied territories to make room for settlers is recognized as a crime against humanity?
modafinilThreads: -
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 Mar 6, 12, 01:25    #82
JonnyM:
And what about the growing population of Israelis? Where should they live?


Well given the staunch support of two of the most anti-semetic countries populations (Germany and Poland) they certainly don't want the descendants going back.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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Edited by: JonnyM  Mar 6, 12, 01:33    #83
modafinil:
Well given the staunch support of two of the most anti-semetic countries populations (Germany and Poland) they certainly don't want the descendants going back.

In some ways yes. There isn't any great support for people going back to their granny's house in, say, Poland, Romania, Germany, even France. Though nor is there the same level of anti-Semitism that existed before the Holocaust.

Rightly or wrongly Israel is their home and rightly or wrongly they have to consistently up the ante if they're going to survive there. A two state solution might work - but not yet and there has to be a lot of hard behaviour before that can even go on the table.
HarryThreads: 62
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 Mar 6, 12, 01:33    #84
" Well given the staunch support of two of the most anti-semetic countries populations (Germany and Poland) they certainly don't want the descendants going back."
I can't say anything about Germany, but people in Poland by and large are not anti-semitic. Anti-Semitism is not common in Poland.

By this is very much off topic in this thread and so is best not discussed here.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Edited by: Des Essientes  Mar 6, 12, 01:43    #85
JonnyM:
they have to consistently up the ante if they're going to survive there.

So destroying this ancient well, and the village that surrounded, it was merely "upping the ante"? It is truly disgusting that violations of the human rights of the indigenous people of Palestine are dismissed with a card playing metaphor by an advocate of racist colonialism.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Mar 6, 12, 01:51    #86
Yes. It is doing what they have to do in order to maintain the balance of power there. Unless you'd prefer the entire region controlled by 'palestinians' and the Israelis somewhere else...
BarneyThreads: 16
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 Mar 6, 12, 01:52    #87
I don’t think anyone here is going to solve the problem in that part of the world, we know where everyone stands so…….
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Mar 6, 12, 11:05    #88
Des Essientes:
I would like the readers of this thread to note that the person qouted above, giving a particularly despicable Orientalist justification for ethnically cleansing 2.5 million people from the West Bank of Palestine, is not a Pole nor a Polonian. This person is advocating a horrendous crime against humanity and his views should not be confused with those of the righteous people of Poland who do not believe that driving millions out of their ancestral land wouldn't be "brutal".


There's only one problem - the people of Poland couldn't care less about Palestine.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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 Mar 6, 12, 16:56    #89
delphiandomine:

There's only one problem - the people of Poland couldn't care less about Palestine.

Delphiandomine, you can claim to know what the people of Poland care about all you want, but the reader should know that you are not Polish. Delphiandomine is a British expatriate living in Poland. Moreover the fact that a Polish charity paid to restore this ancient Palestinian well proves that there are indeed Polish people who care about Palestine. So much for your "only one problem".... I daresay claiming that the people of Poland "couldn't care less about Palestine", in a thread about a Polish charity's work in Palestine, shows that you have a problem with thinking through the statements you make before you post them.
HarryThreads: 62
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 Mar 6, 12, 17:21    #90
delphiandomine:
There's only one problem - the people of Poland couldn't care less about Palestine.

I certainly cannot remember having many conversations about Palestine with a Pole in the 17 years I have been here. The vast majority of conversations I have had about that topic were with foreigners.

Des Essientes:
living in Poland.

Which would mean that he is surrounded by Poles, is married to a Pole, spends the vast majority of his working and socialising time with Poles and reads the Polish media regularly (daily). I wonder if that would give him a better or worse idea about what Poles think than an American who has never been to Poland and speaks to Poles perhaps once or twice a year. Any thoughts?


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