Komorowski asks forgiveness for Jedwabne

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Jul 10, 11, 15:37 #1

In a letter read out at the comemmoration of the 70th annviersary of the Jedwabne pogrom. President Komorowski again asked for forgiveness and said the Polish nation must remmeber it was the perpetrator. Lwów Archcbishop Mieczysław Cisło attended, the first bishop ever to do so. Some 300-350 Jews were burnt alive in a barn by local Poles at German instigation. What was not mentioned at the ceremony was that this had occurred after 22 months of Soviet occupation of the eastern half of Poland (where Jedwabne is located), duirng which many Jews actively collaborated with the Soviet invaders and fingered Polish patriots to the NKVD.
If you read Polish, check out:
http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1342,title,Prosze-o-przebaczenie,wid,13583 007,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=1ca2f&_ticrsn=5

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Jul 10, 11, 15:47 #2

Polonius3:

Lwów Archcbishop Mieczysław Cisło attended, the first bishop ever to do so.

Good. As a symbolic representative of the Polish psyche, his presence can help heal the wounds.

Polonius3:

What was not mentioned at the ceremony was that this had occurred after 22 months of Soviet occupation of the eastern half of Poland (where Jedwabne is located), duirng which many Jews actively collaborated with the Soviet invaders and fingered Polish patriots to the NKVD.

May I remind you that the Catholic religion preaches forgiveness as a central theme? Jesus was rather fond of turning the other cheek, as I recall.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 15:51 #3
There is no doubt that Poles participated but the Germans were in total control of the country at that time one couldn't do anything without permission.

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,834 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 16:15 #4
10 years ago I personally witnessed a ceremony of expiation at Warsaw's All Siants Church (the capital's biggest) on the site of the former. There, the enitre Polish Epsicopate on their knees expressed remorse, asked Jews for forgiveness and prayed for the victims of the Jedwabne pogrom.

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Jul 10, 11, 16:22 #5

What really needs to be said here? Leave innocent people alone, that's what! Maybe a handful of those Jews deserved to be killed based on some heinous crimes committed (which I strongly doubt) but you can't make that presumption given that innocent life is sacred. Justice needs to be seen to be done and guilty by association is the ultimate insult. Go after the law breakers and trouble makers, not people entirely unconnected with key incidents. That goes for all sides!

MalopolaninThreads: 8 Posts: 198 Joined: Sep 5, 10 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 16:47 #6
He should speak for himself. I never killed a Jew.

PalivecThreads: - Posts: 333 Joined: Apr 22, 11 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 16:51 #7
Malopolanin: He should speak for himself. I never killed a Jew. Says someone who calls todays Germans Nazis...

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 17:06 #8
Polonius3: President Komorowski again asked for forgiveness a Is that a new rite of passage for every new Polish President?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 17:09 #9
It gets him away from his żubrówka z sokiem jabłkowym :) :) It's a standard function.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 17:10 #10
Kwaśniewski was there "praying" today too. He even looked sober.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 17:17 #11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rj2AtKwtuM, part 1 of 3 on Jedwabne. There are English subtitles. I wouldn't take so many at their word. He was imprisoned at the time so the accuracy of his research may not be that high.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 17:37 #12
Henryk Grynberg survived the occupation with his mother, moved to the United States where he became a writer after 50 years he came back to Radoszyna the village in which he was born to find out what happened to his father and younger brother. Birthplace, English subs.

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Edited by: skysoulmate Jul 10, 11, 19:13 #13

Polonius3:

Some 300-350 Jews were burnt alive in a barn by local Poles at German instigation.

What was not mentioned at the ceremony was that this had occurred after 22 months of Soviet occupation of the eastern half of Poland (where Jedwabne is located), duirng which many Jews actively collaborated with the Soviet invaders and fingered Polish patriots to the NKVD.

Look at the highlighted quote and tell me if the second sentence justifies the first one??

I didn't think so.

You turned a beautiful ceremony, one that's about closure, atonement and forgivness into a yet another Jew blame game. Shame on you Polonius, I've read so many of your posts and I know you can do much better than this... :((

Maybe what Poland needs is a different ceremony, one that highlights the disgusting role some Poles, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO many Poles of Jewish faith, played in actively collaborating with the Soviet invaders and the NKVD? I'm all for that, that story needs to be told, know your history or you'll be doomed to repeat it.

However, the fact SOME Jews (but also Catholic, Evangelical and atheist Poles) collaborated with the NKVD scum does NOT justify burning innocent men, women and children alive. Not by Poles or by Germans, or by Soviets, not in Srebrenica or anywhere else on this planet. PERIOD! Do not use one atrocity to justify another.

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Jul 10, 11, 19:24 #14

Exactly my point and not only on this thread, sky :) :) We need to know who to target and the culprits were left to roam. The professor made a number of valid points. I'm sorry that parts 2 and 3 are only in Polish. His most salient points were in relation to how the Poles could have acquired arms in that region and also how Gross, um, 'grossly' distorts the events by insincerely stating that Germans were begging the Poles not to kill them but that the Poles insisted on pressing ahead. I do entertain the possibility that a group of renegade Poles could have carried it out but it just doesn't match. Motive is only motive in crimes and mens rea is sth different. Is Kommie admitting guilt for the actions of his predecessors?

Monia	Jul 10, 11, 19:29 #15
Seanus: Is Kommie admitting guilt for the actions of his predecessors? You have made a very smart point , Seanus :).

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Edited by: delphiandomine Jul 10, 11, 19:32 #16

skysoulmate:

Maybe what Poland needs is a different ceremony, one that highlights the disgusting role some Poles, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO many Poles of Jewish faith, played in actively collaborating with the Soviet invaders and the NKVD? I'm all for that, that story needs to be told, know your history or you'll be doomed to repeat it.

Not a bad idea. The problem is that in Poland, there seems to be a refusal to admit that a lot of a dirty work was actually done by Poles - hence all the smears about how Komorowski is actually Russian, how Tusk is a Russian puppet and so on.

It would certainly go a long way to establishing that Polish citizens of all ethnicities were responsible for some dreadful things - and would allow these things to pass peacefully into history. Of course - one problem - too many people are gaining politically from such an event not happening.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 19:36 #17
Two last parts to the videos I've posted. Tragic story how the man finds the grave of his murdered father and also one of the men that did the crime.

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Edited by: skysoulmate Jul 10, 11, 19:52 #18

"...An agonizing debate at the time forced Poles to modify their belief, shaped by decades of communist-era propaganda, that they were always heroic victims — never collaborators — in Nazi-era atrocities.
...
On Sunday, Bishop Mieczyslaw Cislo was the first ever high ranking member of Poland's influential Roman Catholic Church to attend ceremonies in Jedwabne..
"Let us not be divided by the graves in Jedwabne, but let us be united in prayers for brotherhood and close ties between Poles and Jews," said Cislo, who chairs the Church's council for relations with the Jews.
...

the absence of Jedwabne mayor, Krzysztof Moenke, "shows however that much remains to be learned and taught."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpqoi3EAivLnaFA9sDyt FNQeumEw?docId=92f7d873c21344a19f35685de94c68df

- What Bishop Cisło said is what this is all about.

- What Mayor Mönke did, or rather didn't do, shows that the road to reconciliation is very narrow and slippery.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jul 10, 11, 19:54 #19
skysoulmate: What Mayor Mönke did, or rather didn't do, shows that the road to reconciliation is a very narrow and slippery one. From what I understand, there is great hostility in Jedwabne by the locals towards any sort of reconciliation.

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Edited by: PennBoy Jul 10, 11, 20:00 #20

delphiandomine:

From what I understand, there is great hostility in Jedwabne by the locals towards any sort of reconciliation.

Well if many of their grandfathers took part in the pogrom they feel shame and don't want their town to become a sort of pilgrimage site for Jews, further reminding them of the past. Apart from Jedwabne were there any other significant instances where Poles in collaboration with Germans killed Jews? From what i've read the local involvement in Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine was much more numerous.

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,954 Joined: Aug 6, 09 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 20:01 #21
Ironside: Is that a new rite of passage for every new Polish President? Yes it is, it is the same as in United States every presidential candidate has to go in front the AIPAC to state the never ending love for Israel.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 20:05 #22
delphiandomine: From what I understand, there is great hostility in Jedwabne by the locals towards any sort of reconciliation. No wonder if you consider that most probably it is all sham !

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Edited by: MediaWatch Jul 10, 11, 21:49 #23

skysoulmate:

Look at the highlighted quote and tell me if the second sentence justifies the first one??
I didn't think so.
You turned a beautiful ceremony, one that's about closure, atonement and forgivness into a yet another Jew blame game. Shame on you Polonius, I've read so many of your posts and I know you can do much better than this... :((

I think Polonius just feels this story is being used as part of the media blame the Poles game. No doubt much of the mass media (including the liberal media inside Poland) love using this story like a baseball bat on Poland and Polish people. Especially since the media feels the other side is beyond reproach for being taken to task on anything.
Why doesn’t the mass media talk about this story?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
At least part of the Israeli media had the courage to report this.

skysoulmate:

Maybe what Poland needs is a different ceremony, one that highlights the disgusting role some Poles, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO many Poles of Jewish faith, played in actively collaborating with the Soviet invaders and the NKVD? I'm all for that, that story needs to be told, know your history or you'll be doomed to repeat it..

I think many people would agree with you on this, because to this day, all of the apologizing and soul searching has been done on the Polish side and not the Jewish side. We all know there is good and bad in all groups of people. But why do Jews who demand Poles admit to bad things bad Poles have done, never demand the same from themselves? If Jews don’t want to examine the bad behavior of bad Jews among them, then that sends the tacit message that Jews feel they are ALL good people who are beyond criticism. This is only something that ethnic supremacists would feel.

Yes ALL stories need to be told like you say, starting with Jews talking about the horrible things Soviet Jews (and Polish Jewish collaborators) did to Poles and other central & East Europeans.
They can start with “Stalins Jews”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Ethnic Poles should not initiate these criticisms of bad Jews. This should be initiated by Polish Jews in Poland.
A ceremony for atonement, forgiveness is indeed a beautiful thing. But its not truly a ceremony for atonement and forgiveness, if only ONE side has to atone for things while the other side does not.

skysoulmate:

However, the fact SOME Jews (but also Catholic, Evangelical and atheist Poles) collaborated with the NKVD scum does NOT justify burning innocent men, women and children alive. Not by Poles or by Germans, or by Soviets, not in Srebrenica or anywhere else on this planet. PERIOD! Do not use one atrocity to justify another.

No kidding Sky.

But much of this Jedwabne story has been exaggerated. First Gross said “1600” Jews were burned in a barn. Now its down to “300-350” Jews that were killed. Who really knows what the real number is and Jan Gross's inconsistent "facts" and anti-Polish sentiment disqualifies him from being a credible source on this.

The Anti-Polish New York Times is still pushing the “1600” number as “fact”.

And by the way Sky, dare I ask, but if Nazi Germans forced you to kill somebody, how do you know you wouldn’t??
Why did Soviet Jews participate in the killing of thousands if not millions of people as the article “Stalins Jews” states?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Who put a gun to their head? Why don’t Jews ask for forgiveness for what these bad Jews have done to others??

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Jul 10, 11, 22:10 #24

MediaWatch:

I think Polonius just feels this story is being used as part of the media blame the Poles game. No doubt much of the mass media (including the liberal media inside Poland) love using this story like a baseball bat on Poland and Polish people.

A 'game' like this should only be played if everyone responsible would be participating. Our eastern neighbors who had many more people involved in massacring Jews are not even mentioning it, protecting their citizens standing by them. If Poles start talking about it it will be spread out through the media we'll be made to look worse than the Germans!!!

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,397 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 22:21 #25
Ironside: No wonder if you consider that most probably it is all sham ! Unfurtunately, it is not. Even IPN admits that about 300 Jews were burnt in a shed/stabe/whatever and about 40 were killed before, in the Market Square. http://www.tvn24.pl/12690,1710047,0,1,kolejny-prezydent-prosi-o-wybacz enie-za-jedwabne,wiadomosc.html

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Jul 10, 11, 22:28 #26

PennBoy:

A 'game' like this should only be played if everyone responsible would be participating. Our eastern neighbors who had many more people involved in massacring Jews are not even mentioning it, protecting their citizens standing by them. If Poles start talking about it it will be spread out through the media we'll be made to look worse than the Germans!!!

Exactly,

There is a media double standard going on in regards to Poland.

The 1970's media anti-Polish sound bites was just one phase of media Polish-Bashing.

Now the media anti-Polish Bigots want to fill the mind of people reading media of the anti-Polish sound bites coming from this Jedwabne exageration.

Yes other nearby countries have done far worse then Poland but the media today is pretty much giving them a pat on the wrist.

After all the guilt money Germany has been pumping into Israel, now the horrible things the WWII Germans did are rarely talked about as German atrocities. Its now "Nazi atrocities". For some reason the ancestry of those Nazis is of little concern to the same media people who are so quick to throw a microscope on the ancestry of Poles who engaged in bad behavior.

Its like the Nazis came from Mars and took over Germany in WWII so the media feels its not necessary to talk about GERMAN atrocities anymore. LOL

Same thing with the Soviet Russians. Most of the horrible things they did are not even brought up by the media. Especially against Jews. The word "Russian" is rarely used to describe those bad Soviet deeds.

No no. As far as the "mainstream"media is concerned, the main "horrible anti-semitic" European nation was just POLAND!! Despite the fact most Jews CHOSE to live in Poland for 1000 years.

After one Polish president after another is falling over himself apologizing and apologizing and apologizing to Jews, its never enough it seesms.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jul 10, 11, 22:45 #27
pawian: Even IPN admits that about 300 Jews were burnt in a shed/stabe/whatever and about 40 were killed before, in the Market Square. Well,I meant - who done it ? I still bet my money on a German special commando operating it this area about the time of alleged Polish crime. MediaWatch: There is a media double standard going on in regards to Poland. Fact!

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Jul 10, 11, 22:45 #28
Ah, MediaWatch - your racism just shows itself again and again.

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Edited by: PennBoy Jul 10, 11, 22:48 #29

MediaWatch:

After all the guilt money Germany has been pumping into Israel, now the horrible things the WWII Germans did are rarely talked about as German atrocities. Its now "Nazi atrocities".

Yes through paying Jews billions Germany has been able to win and get German atrocities changed to Nazi atrocities. Even though we know perfectly well almost all Nazis were Germans and the foreign volunteers came to help in the German cause without which they wouldn't have anything to volunteer for.

MediaWatch:

No no. As far as the "mainstream"media is concerned, the main "horrible anti-semitic" European nation was just POLAND!! Despite the fact most Jews CHOSE to live in Poland for 1000 years.

Yea I fear this wont end until Poland pays them. But that 3 million of them were sheltered in Poland for a thousand years where elsewhere in Europe were persecuted and treated like dogs, that they don't remember.
Marian Marzynski a Jew saved by Poles creator of the controversial PBS Shtetl and 'A Jew Among the Germans" and the blame game.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/germans/view/

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Edited by: RobertLee Jul 10, 11, 23:50 #30

Komorowski and Kwaśniewski must have killed a lot of Jews, lots to apologize for then.
The Jedwabne dwellers have become world fameous for their architecture, for example they made barns that could shelter 3200 people. Yes, 3200, not 1600, cause Mr Gross is only half Jewish, thereby his estimations must have been lowered.

PennBoy:

Yea I fear this wont end until Poland pays them.

It won't end ever.
Funny how Jews were supposed to be Poles, but after death they turn into Israelis.

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