NATO chief to snub Poland?

♂

Oct 27, 10, 15:11 #1

“We have striven for some time for Anders Fogh Rasmussen to be present but the Secretary General has refused, without giving a reason. He will just be sending his deputy,
http://www.thenews.pl/international/artykul142325_nato-chief-to-snub-p oland.html

I really think this was a really bad move by him. Did this have a political message to Poland that "I don't care about your stupid meeting" or did he seriously just don't have time for this important meeting? I'm really starting to question his reliability as the NATO chief.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 15:15 #2
Ever consider that he may have very good, personal/private reasons?

David_18Threads: 111 Posts: 1,212 Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 15:19 #3
Teffle: Ever consider that he may have very good, personal/private reasons? He still got his duty. If he insults one of the largest contributors of Nato by not even comming to a very important meeting that Poland is hosting then maybe this job is not for him.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 27, 10, 15:23 #4
David_18: If he insults one of the largest contributors of Nato by not even comming to a very important meeting that Poland is hosting then maybe this job is not for him. Or maybe he's sending a clear message to Poland - you're not as important as you seem to think you are.

David_18Threads: 111 Posts: 1,212 Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 15:24 #5
delphiandomine: Or maybe he's sending a clear message to Poland - you're not as important as you seem to think you are. What is Denmark then? It's a clear joke that they put a Nato chief from an so unimportant country as Denmark.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Oct 27, 10, 15:27 #6
Or maybe he has other priorities. Isn't the Deputy Secretary-General capable enough to attend the meeting? The comments from the two Polish politicians suggest they are speaking more from wounded pride than anything else. Poland may be a big contributor to NATO, but loudly taking umbrage over matters of prestige and protocol is more the behaviour of a banana republic.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 15:34 #7
jonni: Poland may be a big contributor to NATO, but loudly taking umbrage over matters of prestige and protocol is more the behaviour of a banana republic. Yes, I'm afraid so.

♂ [Suspended]

Oct 27, 10, 15:35 #8

David_18:

It's a clear joke that they put a Nato chief from an so unimportant country as Denmark.

Why? Denmark is small, politically stable, it has a good history of producing leaders, it's wealthy and has a good, stable reputation in general.

Compare to Poland, which has been characterised by political instability, no known leaders, it's poor in NATO terms and is still seen by the West as being unstable in general.

Also, Denmark has important allies like the UK and Germany - Poland has none.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Torq Oct 27, 10, 15:43 #9
Teffle: Ever consider that he may have very good, personal/private reasons? He should have given those reasons then (or at least say that he won't attend because of personal/private reasons), but he simply refused to be present without giving any reasons (although he took part in all previous meetings during his cadence.) Zoological anti-Polonism rearing its ugly head again.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 15:44 #10
I'm sorry but I just don't see it as that big of a deal. Hardly a major diplomatic incident - but then again, I'm not Polish.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 27, 10, 15:45 #11
Torq: Zoological anti-Polonism rearing its ugly head again. Nah, just paranoid Polishness again. Haven't you learnt from Smolensk that it's good for deputy leaders to get experience?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 27, 10, 15:57 #12

delphiandomine:

Nah, just paranoid Polishness again.

Oh, really. Then what about...

delphiandomine:

Or maybe he's sending a clear message to Poland - you're not as important as you seem to think you are.

...I mean, WTF? How stupid can you get? There is a meeting organised in Poland, this time,
just as it was organised in other countries before (no matter, "more" or "less important" to
NATO than Poland) which the anti-Polonite Rasmussen attended, but he's not coming
this time, just "to send a message that you are not as important as you think you are."
I've read many retarded comments on various internet fora, but this one is certainly
in the Top 10.

delphiandomine:

Haven't you learnt from Smolensk that it's good for deputy leaders to get experience?

What was that? A joke? WOW - classy!

Do you know any other great jokes about tragic deaths? Or maybe about people with cancer? No?

♂

Oct 27, 10, 15:59 #13

delphiandomine:

Why? Denmark is small, politically stable

No it's not. I don't call a country stable that throws out their foreigners. two thirds of the population is against emigration to denmark from the middle east. And a country like that should NOT respresent Nato.

delphiandomine:

Compare to Poland, which has been characterised by political instability

Not really any woser then the rest of europe.

delphiandomine:

no known leaders

Poland got plenty

delphiandomine:

it's poor in NATO terms

Still it contributes aloot more then some richer countries.

delphiandomine:

is still seen by the West as being unstable in general.

Ehm no? i haven't seen any riots in Poland but i've plenty in the rest of europe ;)

delphiandomine:

Also, Denmark has important allies like the UK and Germany

Same goes for Poland.

delphiandomine:

Poland has none.

Poland got the whole europe plus the U.S

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: delphiandomine Oct 27, 10, 16:15 #14

David_18:

No it's not. I don't call a country stable that throws out their foreigners. two thirds of the population is against emigration to denmark from the middle east. And a country like that should NOT respresent Nato.

What, you think that Poland would welcome immigrants from the middle east? Poland? Are you kidding me? People here still freak out when they see a black face!

David_18:

Not really any woser then the rest of europe.

Remind me - which government, post 1989 was re-elected? That's right, no government has retained power. That's called "instability". The last government collapsed before the end of its mandate!

David_18:

Poland got plenty

Like who? They simply don't have the talent. It will come in time, but not yet.

David_18:

Still it contributes aloot more then some richer countries.

What does it contribute? A few soldiers to fight a pointless war? Nothing to do with NATO.

David_18:

Ehm no? i haven't seen any riots in Poland but i've plenty in the rest of europe ;)

That's because there hasn't been the painful reforms pushed yet. Anyway, there was a riot in Poznan last year after they cut the subsidies to Ciegelski, and there'll be more after the next election.

David_18:

Same goes for Poland.

Who? None of the decision makers in NATO are strongly allied with Poland. Compare to Denmark - which has huge ties with Germany and the UK.

David_18:

Poland got the whole europe plus the U.S

Military, yes. Politically in NATO? None.

Torq:

What was that? A joke? WOW - classy!

What was that about Polish oversensitivity?

Wasn't even a joke, but your gross overreaction certainly is :)

♂

Edited by: jonni Oct 27, 10, 16:23 #15

Torq:

(although he took part in all previous meetings during his cadence.)

What? His 'cadence' (I assume you mean 'term of office') started in mid 2009. This is the annual session of the Nato Parliamentary Assembly. So by "all previous meetings", you either in fact mean one previous meeting or you're trying to distort the facts to justify the chance for Poles to bury their head in their hands and cry "why us, why us? it's true, nobody likes us".

And can you back up your outrageous (and probably libellous) claim that he's:

torq:

the anti-Polonite Rasmussen

MEMBER ♂

Oct 27, 10, 16:25 #16

delphiandomine:

your gross overreaction

My "gross overreaction"? You're having a laugh - I've seen anti-Polonism, in all its shades
and colours, on so many occasions, that it is now only mildly amusing to me. The only reason
why I write about it is the young generation of Poles, who might be reading this forum
right now. I would like them to realise the existence of anti-Polonism in the World, so one day
in the future they will understand why they and their country are hated by so many troglodytes
in every country of the world.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 16:28 #17
Torq: why they and their country are hated Most of the world couldn't find Poland on a map if they tried, and at least 95% of the world's population have little or no opinion on the subject. Poland is not the pępek świata that some people here think it is.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 16:29 #18
Torq: so one day in the future they will understand why they and their country are hated by so many troglodytes in every country of the world. Seriously, do you truly believe this Torq?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 27, 10, 16:31 #19

jonni:

His 'cadence' (I assume you mean 'term of office')

My mistake, I used a simple transfer from Polish "kadencja", assuming that the English
borrowed the Latin word "cadentia" into their language too. Apparently they didn't.

jonni:

So by "all previous meetings", you either in fact mean one previous meeting

What I meant was that he attended the previous meeting, just as other NATO Secretary
Generals attended such meetings during their terms of office (that's what Polish newspapers
and internet portals say anyway).

If you know of any other case of NATO Secretary General refusing to attend the NATO
Parliamentary Assembly without giving any reason, then please tell us about it.

Teffle:

Seriously, do you truly believe this Torq?

Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but sometimes I do get such impression.

♂

Oct 27, 10, 16:43 #20

delphiandomine:

What, you think that Poland would welcome immigrants from the middle east? Poland? Are you kidding me?

Yet you somehow had no problem getting in, it’s the assimilation that’s a b1tch.

delphiandomine:

Remind me - which government, post 1989 was re-elected? That's right, no government has retained power. That's called "instability".

Stability is defined by the transition of power not by retention. So much to learn, so little time.

delphiandomine:

Nothing to do with NATO.

ISAF is a NATO-led security mission in Afghanistan established by the United Nations Security Council. It has everything to do with NATO.

delphiandomine:

None of the decision makers in NATO are strongly allied with Poland

By definition NATO is an alliance; personal opinions of the individuals are just that, personal opinions.

PS What can I say? Wow!!!! Where are you from, US?

♂

Edited by: jonni Oct 27, 10, 16:45 #21

Torq:

If you know of any other case of NATO Secretary General refusing to attend the NATO
Parliamentary Assembly without giving any reason, then please tell us about it.

I'll save you the trouble of reading through a raft of links by suggesting you look at the wikipedia entry about it.

You may be interested as well to know that the Secretary General of Nato always responds in writing to the plenary session.

Now, down to the nitty gritty. Why do you think he is snubbing Poland and for what reason?

Oh, and you failed to answer the question above, which I'm kind enough to repeat for you:

"""And can you back up your outrageous (and probably libellous) claim that he's:

torq:

the anti-Polonite Rasmussen

"""

♂

Edited by: David_18 Oct 27, 10, 16:47 #22

delphiandomine:

What, you think that Poland would welcome immigrants from the middle east? Poland? Are you kidding me? People here still freak out when they see a black face!

We got plenty of Refugees from chechnya and other countries.

delphiandomine:

Remind me - which government, post 1989 was re-elected? That's right, no government has retained power. That's called "instability". The last government collapsed before the end of its mandate!

That's called Democacy

delphiandomine:

Like who? They simply don't have the talent. It will come in time, but not yet.

Czesław Piątas, Franciszek Gągor ( died in the smolensk crash ), Mieczysław Stachowiak, Tadeusz Wilecki etc etc etc...

delphiandomine:

What does it contribute? A few soldiers to fight a pointless war? Nothing to do with NATO.

Got plenty to do with NATO. Poland is one of the major contributors of the NATO led International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan.

Atm the total international deployment of Polish military is over 4,800 troops. and before that Poland had 2,500 in iraq and 500 in Lebanon.

delphiandomine:

That's because there hasn't been the painful reforms pushed yet. Anyway, there was a riot in Poznan last year after they cut the subsidies to Ciegelski, and there'll be more after the next election.

You stated that Poland was unstable, not me. What about the riots in Greece, France, Denmark, Sweden etc etc?

delphiandomine:

Who? None of the decision makers in NATO are strongly allied with Poland. Compare to Denmark - which has huge ties with Germany and the UK.

I think all of them are.

delphiandomine:

Military, yes. Politically in NATO? None.

Plenty

♂

Edited by: FlaglessPole Oct 27, 10, 16:49 #23

delphiandomine:

Why? Denmark is small, politically stable, it has a good history of producing leaders, it's wealthy and has a good, stable reputation in general.

Thank you delphi, and I won't even try comparing these two countries in terms importance and overall example to outside world (not to mention quality of life and yeah the lowest corruption rate in the world) as a write-up like that would prove too depressing to read for guys like David_18. Let's just say that being a Dane of partial Polish heritage I sincerely hope that Poland someday will get any close to Denmark's social and economic prowess. But this may regrettably not happen within my life time. As for Anders Fogh Rasmussen he always seemed to me a bit of a stuck-up twat, but that just my personal opinion although as our PM he did a decent enough job.

♂

Oct 27, 10, 16:53 #24

delphiandomine:

Why? Denmark is small, politically stable, it has a good history of producing leaders, it's wealthy and has a good, stable reputation in general.

Compare to Poland, which has been characterised by political instability, no known leaders, it's poor in NATO terms and is still seen by the West as being unstable in general.

OK, so let's compare the two countries:

DENMARK:

Manpower
Military age 18-49
Available for military service 1,276,087 (2004 est.), age 15–49
Active personnel 22,000 (2010)
Reserve personnel 12,000 + 51,000 volunteers in the Home Guard
Expenditures
Budget 3.87 billion USD (2008)
Percent of GDP 1.3% (2006)

POLAND

Manpower
Military age 18 years of age
Available for military service 10,354,978, age 15–49 (2003 est.)
Active personnel 100,272
Reserve personnel 240,000
Expenditures
Budget $11.8 billion (FY2009) 19th
Percent of GDP 1.95% (FY2008)

As for the political stability in terms of military decisions of late, so Poland appears much more stable than the US.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 27, 10, 16:54 #25

jonni:

Why do you think he is snubbing Poland and for what reason?

He's making a gesture towards Russia.

jonni:

"""And can you back up your outrageous (and probably libellous) claim that he's

He's actions are talking for themselves. First, he states that NATO will NEVER attack Russia,
then he snubs the Polish invitation to NATO Parliamentary Assembly, without giving any reasons.
So, basically, in the langauge of diplomacy, he's saying to Putin - "Vladimir, you can have
Poland. NATO doesn't mind." If that's not anti-Polish, then I don't know what is.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 16:54 #26
z_darius: OK, so let's compare the two countries: Better to compare the GDP of the two countries, the stability of their governments and the Europe-wide respect for their leaders.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Oct 27, 10, 16:59 #27
jonni: Better to compare the GDP of the two countries No problem: POLAND $ 689,300,000,000 2009 est. DENMARK $197,800,000,000 2009 est. jonni: the stability of their governments ? jonni: the Europe-wide respect for their leaders Tell us how Wałęsa, Kwaśniewski, Miller or, at the moment, Tusk, were/are less respected in Europe than Danish politicians. Should be interesting...

FlaglessPoleThreads: 7 Posts: 1,394 Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂	Oct 27, 10, 17:01 #28
Torq: No problem: POLAND $ 689,300,000,000 2009 est. DENMARK $197,800,000,000 2009 est. try per capita and promise me not to weep

♂

Oct 27, 10, 17:03 #29

Torq:

He's making a gesture towards Russia.

Do you really believe that not attending the annual session because this year it happens to be in Poland is "a gesture towards Russia"?

Torq:

First, he states that NATO will NEVER attack Russia.,

Clearly a man of peace. Though "NEVER attack" just aint the same as 'never defend against!

Torq:

he snubs the Polish invitation to NATO Parliamentary Assembly

If he's snubbing anything, it's the parliamentary assembly, not Poland, since they, not Poland, organise the session.

Torq:

"Vladimir, you can have Poland. NATO doesn't mind."

Do you think a) Putin wants Poland, b) they'd invade to get it, c)Poland isn't a mature enough democracy to decide with whom they wish to form alliances.

Torq:

If that's not anti-Polish, then I don't know what is.

I do. It's Russophobic trash and similar conspiracy theories posted on English-language internet forums which by their silly stereotype-reinforcing hysteria only serve to denigrate Poland in the eyes of anyone daft enough to believe it.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Oct 27, 10, 17:05 #30
FlaglessPole: try per capita and promise me not to weep He wasn't asking about GDP per capita, was he? If GDP per capita was so important in the world of politics, then Liechtenstein, Luxemburg and Monaco would all be big players in the G-20 group :) San Marino would probably be the G-20 member too :)

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Unanswered \| Archives
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Poland Now and Then	Witamy, Guest \| PF Members \| Gold Members

Home \| Unanswered \| Archives \| Random \| Statistics	Time in Poland: 20:12 / May 26
About Us \| Contact Us \| Rules, Privacy \| Poland Advertising	© 2005-12 PolishForums.com